how do we know how animals visualise the world around them?

EmptyForceOfChi

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how do we know how other animals see the world? can we actually 100% prove that we know exactly how other animals see the world, like science often tells us how other animals see everything and on documentary shows they actually say "this is how a cat sees through its eyes" and shows a camera angle through the cats perspective,



how do we actually know what other animals see? wheres actual hard evidence of us knowing what other animals actually see,


actually actually actually, damn i said that alot huh,


peace.
 
yeah i often wonder things like this i have an arsenal of questions and theories to put forward to sciforums readers and posters, but i will space my questions and theorys out and not overload everyone with EmptyForceOfChi posts or people will get sick of the name and my logic.


peace



seriously though how do we know how other biengs sense things if we cant personally experince it?, sure we can do simple tests but we still cant actually "know" unless we experience.
 
Forget animals in general, you cannot even be sure that any other human sees the world in the same way you do. Aaahh. Gotta love solipsism.
 
well yeah we can kinda because we can actually have intense and detailed discussions about how we sense things, we cannot communicate with animals on a conversational level, unless your eddie murphy.


we cant actually experience another humans senses for them, but we are more aware of how other humans feel because we are the same species, and we have this whole language thing to express ourselves and thoughts, wich we dont have with animals.




peace
 
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but how do we know that what looks green to us doesnt look red to someone else? everytime theyve seen that colour theyve been told its green, so even so they perceive it as red, they call it green. unless you can actually see through someone elses eyes you dont know what they see.
 
vslayer said:
but how do we know that what looks green to us doesnt look red to someone else? everytime theyve seen that colour theyve been told its green, so even so they perceive it as red, they call it green. unless you can actually see through someone elses eyes you dont know what they see.


again because of our complex language we can compare colours to other colours and what about this, if i hold 20 balls infront of a croud of people and each ball is a different colour, red blue green orange gold silver black white purple etc etc, then everybody writes down on a piece of paper what colour each ball is then compare. theres lots of other ways to see about colour, but other things cant be experienced but colour can be varyfied.



peace
 
but anyway back tot he origonal topic.


whats everyones opinion on this and science thinking it knows when i cant see how they can know how a animal percieves existance on every type of level possible to evolution in the world.
 
i imagine animals visualise their surroundings (in their mind's eye) much like we do. But animals that posess senses that we don't - it's an interesting thought to wonder how they integrate this information into their mind's eye.

ie: we may hear a sound behind us, and we will instantly in our mind's eye visualise the source of the sound, it's not so much that we SEE it in our mind's eye - but we FEEL it - as we pre-emptively feel an incomming blow to the head and instinctively close our eyes.

But a shark, that has the odd ability to detect biological electrical impulses, and a dolphin who has the ability to use sonar to perceieve it's surroundings. How they integrate this information into their mind's eye is an interesting thought.

btw we presume to know how most animals SEE things with their eyes because we dissect their eyes and compare them to our own. We understand that ppl with varying levels of colourblindness see things differently because we have dissected their eyes and observed that they lack certain colour sensitive rods and cones. Animals with eyes that act on quite different principles than our own eyes however, such as compound eyes, or an array of anymore than 2 eyes - this is a question of how the information is integrated.

it's a question for the mind's eye (and an interesting question at that).
we can strive to answer these sorts of questions quite easily as we temporarily alter our own perceptions with drugs.
 
they may all write down the same colour, but that is because that is the name they have learned for that colour, it may appear completely different, and no amount of discussion can possibly allow you to see what colour they see.

which leads onto one of my beliefs, that we all like a uniform colour, but to different people that colour may appear have a different name, because we evolved to like teh colour of foods or safe things.
 
thats true good reply but wha are your opinions ont he question i asked?




good points roid and yeah i agree about the drug thing with hallucinations, and yeah i guess this is a question about the minds eye of different species on this planet.



peace
 
One animal that was tested right off the top of my head was the cuddlefish and octopus. I watched a show once where they ran specimens through a series of logical puzzles.

I wish I could remember more results, but from what I do remember. they gave them a series of problems that could be used to determine the boundaries and limitations of the cognitive abilities/vision.

Example-- if an animal is exposed to a checkerboard pattern of black and another color, and the animal was only able to perceive the black,.
 
see the thread "Sensory Evolution" under the Biology category. We've covered all the different types of sensory perceptors and brain functions in animals.

What I did not elaborate on is that mammals see different shades and tones of colors than humans do. For instance, deer and elk distinguish only six colors - reddish-violet, red, orange, yellow, green, and blue.They cannot distinguish between yellow ang gray and it is extremely hard for them to distinguish shades of blue. This is because of the difference in the rods in their retina cones. Ironically, they can distinguish yellow and bright orange the best: just the colors that hunters must wear so that they don't get shot at by other hunters.

As far as senses go, dogs can sense at least 1000x more smells than humans. I haven't researched this yet but their long snouts aren't hollow. You know how dogs always sniff around. So one of their major perceptions of the world is based on scent. And, although they can be very intelligent - and even more intelligent than us in some ways - they basically only advance to have the mind of a three or four year old, but they make up for it in other ways.
 
Also, many people wrongly assume that dogs are colorblind. That's just an old wive's tale. They see colors but just different shades and tones of those colors compared to humans. It all has to do with the rod cones in the retina: the fovea (central part of the retina). This is the part of the retina within your eyes that is responsible for color vision.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
well yeah we can kinda because we can actually have intense and detailed discussions about how we sense things, we cannot communicate with animals on a conversational level, unless your eddie murphy. we cant actually experience another humans senses for them, but we are more aware of how other humans feel because we are the same species,
We can figure out how their eyes work physically. Then we can map the activity in various brain centers after presenting certain visual stimuli. This certainly gives us a lot of useful information about how they perceive the world, even if it doesn't come close to what we can share with each other through language.

Dogs are completely or almost completely color blind. They also haven't evolved the precise focusing ability we have. A so-called "keen eyed" breed like a poodle has about 20/100 vision on the human scale; at the other end of the scale a sound-oriented breed like a Lhasa Apso would qualify as legally blind even if you combed the hair out of his eyes. But their optic centers process differently from ours. They have a disproportionately greater ability to perceive something when it's moving than when it's not.

This tells us rather a lot about how dogs interact with the world, don't you think? Add to that what we know about their hearing, which is far superior to ours, and their sense of smell, which is astounding, and we get an even fuller impression. And then there's the observation of their highly developed social instincts, which result in both cooperative pack behavior as and a hierarchical order.

How about the fact that a female in heat will mate with every stud who asks her to? As a result half the members of the pack think there's a good chance that the puppies are theirs and will go out of their way to protect them.

None of this pertains to their vision directly, yet it all gives us information about how they must see the world in order to develop and practice these behaviors.
and we have this whole language thing to express ourselves and thoughts, wich we dont have with animals.
But we're working on it. A number of apes of at least two different species (gorilla and chimpanzee) have been taught American Sign Language. People who know ASL actually CAN talk to them.

There are an amazing number of undaunted skeptics who insist that what the apes are doing is merely a highly complex form of mimicry and not actually language. But they learned ASL the same way deaf humans do, which starts out as mimcry. I don't understand how complex mimicry has to be before it qualifies as language.

These apes spend their entire lives in the company of humans, in research facilities, and they don't have the same visual experiences that their cousins in the forest do. One ape (I think it was Koko the gorilla but I'm not positive) was familiar with several species of zoo animals and knew their names in sign language. One day for the first time in her life a zebra was led past her enclosure.

She said to her human companion, "Look, a white tiger."

If that's not language, I don't know what is.
 
"In the late 1980s, a definitive set of experiments was done at the University of California, Santa Barbara, by what may well be the world's foremost research program on comparative color vision....Over a series of some 4,000 trials, each dog was taught to "find the one that's different"....dogs do see color, but in a more limited range than that seen by normal humans, who see the rainbow of colors described by "VIBGYOR": Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red (plus hundreds of variations on these shades). Instead, dogs see "VIBYYYR" (Violet, Indigo, Blue, Yellow, Yellow, Yellow, and Red). The colors Green, Yellow, and Orange all look alike to dogs; but look different from Red and different from the various Blues and Purples. Dogs are very good at telling different shades of VIB apart. Finally, Blue-Green looks White to dogs.

The simple explanation for these differences in color vision is this. The retinas of normal humans have three (3) types of color receptors, called "cones". Each cone type is particularly sensitive to light of a narrow limit within the entire VIBGYOR range. That means that three different "cone lines" of communication run back to the visual part of the brain, which then compares the weight of the signals coming in from each of cone "line". Different weights produce a perception of different colors. In dogs (and in "green-blind" humans), there are only two (2) types of cones, so there is less basis for comparison by the brain, and thus the perceived color range is more limited. In sum, dog color vision is "color-limited", not "color-blind".
http://www.puplife.com/dogcaretips/howdogsseecolors.html

"Can Dogs See in Color?
It is not true that dogs are completely colorblind. While dogs do not have the same color vision as humans, they are able to tell yellow from blue. Like a human with red-green colorblindness, they are unable to tell the difference between red and green.
The reason for this limited range, in both the colorblind human and the dog, is that there are only two kinds of color receptors in the retinas of their eyes. While most humans have three kinds of color cells, with three different receptor molecules sensitive to blue, greenish-yellow, and red, dogs only have receptors for yellow and greenish-blue. Canine eyes also lack another human trait: the fovea, an area especially dense with detail-sensing cells. As a result, their detail vision is not as good as ours. But they make up for this by having much better night vision and greater sensitivity to movement."
http://www.discountpetmedicines.com/dog-health-blindness-color-dog.htm

"Dogs can hear sounds that are too faint for us to hear, and also can hear noises at a much higher frequency than we can. Their hearing is so good that they probably rely more on sound than on sight to navigate their world. Dogs may not have as many taste buds as we do (they have about 1,700 on their tongues, while we humans have about 9,000). They have over 200 million scent receptors in their noses (we have only 5 million). Scientists have discovered that dogs can smell the presence of autism in children.

The common belief that dogs are color blind is false. Dogs can see color, but it is not as vivid a color scheme as we see. They distinguish between blue, yellow, and gray, but probably do not see red and green. This is much like our own vision at night. Dogs' eyes have large pupils and a wide field of vision, making them really good at following moving objects. Dogs also see well in fairly low light."
http://www.i-pets.com/petfunt-dog.html

" Dogs can see in much dimmer light than humans. At twilight when you are having trouble seeing shades of color, they see as well as what you were seeing at noontime. Dogs can detect motion better than humans can. Dogs do not have the ability to focus as well on the shape of objects (their visual acuity is lower). An object a human can see clearly may appear to be blurred to a dog looking at it from the same distance. A rough estimate is that dogs have about 20/75 vision. This means that they can see at 20 feet what a normal human could see clearly at 75 feet. Dogs are said to have "dichromatic vision" -- they can see only part of the range of colors in the visual spectrum of light wavelengths. Humans have "trichomatic vision", meaning that they can see the whole spectrum. Dogs probably lack the ability to see the range of colors from green to red."
http://experts.about.com/q/700/3616856.htm

"Dogs can see in much dimmer light than humans. This is because the central portion of a dog's retina is composed primarily of rod cells that "see" in shades of gray while human central retinas have primarily cone cells that perceive color. The rods need much less light to function than cones do.

Dogs can detect motion better than humans can.

Dogs can see flickering light better than humans. The only significance to this appears to be that dogs may see television as a series of moving frames rather than as a continuous scene.

Dogs do not have the ability to focus as well on the shape of objects (their visual acuity is lower). An object a human can see clearly may appear to be blurred to a dog looking at it from the same distance. A rough estimate is that dogs have about 20/75 vision. This means that they can see at 20 feet what a normal human could see clearly at 75 feet.

Dogs are said to have dichromatic vision -- they can see only part of the range of colors in the visual spectrum of light wavelengths. Humans have trichomatic vision, meaning that they can see the whole sprectrum. Dogs probably lack the ability to see the range of colors from green to red. This means that they see in shades of yellow and blue primarily, if the theory is correct. Since it is impossible to ask them, it is not possible to say that they see these colors in the same hues that a human would. Whether or not the ability to see some color is important to dogs or not is hard to say.

Also consider the perspective that dogs see the world from. A dog with its eyes about 12 inches off the ground certainly sees the world a different way than a human with eyes about 48 inches off the ground like many 5th graders.

As humans we tend to think of dog's visual capabilities as inferior to ours. It is different but it may suit their needs better than possessing accurate color vision would.
http://www.vetinfo.com/dogsee.html

"To test if my dog was color-blind, I first trained him to choose blue over yellow. I chose blue and yellow because they appear very different when viewed in a grey scale. After my dog was trained to choose blue, I tested him to see if he could still choose blue over red because it is almostidentical to blue when viewed in a grey scale. My dog chose the blue over the red 72% of the time. Since my dog was able to chose the blue over the red 72% of the time, I concluded that my dog is not completely color-blind."
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...4/Projects/J1003.pdf+are+dog+colorblind&hl=en

"Dogs are [somewhat] red-green color blind. They see a brighter and less detailed world when compared to humans. Peripheral vision is better than humans (dogs see more of the world), but distance is not judged quite as well. Dogs excel at night vision and the detection of moving objects."
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/DrP4.htm

"Dogs appear to be better than people with peripheral vision, but their close-up vision does not seem as sharp as a human's. This is due in part to the placement of the eyes in the dog's skull. The dog's lateral eye placement allows better wide-angle vision but hinders depth perception and close-up viewing because there is minimal visual overlap (binocular convergence) between the two eyes. Hence, your dog can easily snag a ball moving sideways but may have trouble catching a ball tossed right at his nose.

The structure of the dog's retina helps explain other idiosyncrasies of canine vision. Abundant light-sensitive cells called rods in your dog's retina help it detect motion and see well in dim light - clear advantages for canines stalking prey at dusk or dawn or guarding territory against intruders. In contrast, the human retina is made up predominantly of cones - receptors that are better at detecting color and processing bright light. Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not completely colorblind for they do have cones in their retinas. But dogs can't distinguish the full spectrum of colors.

The tapetum lucidum is another ocular structure that gives canines enhanced ability to see in dim light. This thin, reflective tissue is part of the choroid layer, which lies behind the retina. The tapetum reflects light back through the retina, giving the retina a second opportunity to absorb light. You may be more familiar with the function of the tapetum lucidum than you think: it's what causes the bright reflection from a dog's eyes when car headlight shine on them at night."
http://www.cah.com/dr_library/eyedog.html
 
They put octopus in a tank with red and white balls in it. The red balls had food, the white were electrified. The octopus eventually learned not grab the white balls and just go for the red ones.

but how do we actually know how anything is percieved in the minds eye of the animal.?

We don't. We can only guess based off what we know. Some say people are too inherently different from animals to truly know how they percieve stuff.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
but how do we actually know how anything is percieved in the minds eye of the animal.?

peace
"minds eye" = consciousness. Some research has shown that no other animals have "self-awareness" except for humans. We have a thread on Biology about sensory perception." For example, a monkey who sees himself in a mirror is thought to think to himself that "that looks like me," but not "that is me." I think my dog probably wonders the same thing when he cocks his head back and forth when he sees himself, or when he watches t.v. with me and sees other animals like him running across the screen.
 
yes this is called shen, thats why other animals are intelligent but cannot have actual awareness of there own existance, humans have highest shen levels, but im not sure about animals not having a minds eye, this must alsoo mean that they do not have visual dreams in there minds eye also?



peace.
 
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