How did Noah fit all those animals on the ark?

[VitalOne]

Sorry, what exactly is a vague 'stupid thing'?

Like these:
- Gilgamesh was a special man and so was Noah
- There was boat in both stories
- There was a catastrophe in both stories
- There was a flood in both stories

Building a boat would hardly be the logical thing for an inland dwelling person to do if he had no knowledge of a flood. If the entire planet was then flooded he'd have little time to make a boat. Usually by the time you see the wave coming, you're already under it.

O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build

There you go, that should satisfy your requirements.

Eventually the boat lodges on a mountain... Birds are then sent out to test for land but come back without finding any. Then another bird is sent out. Finally he sacrifices an animal to which:

The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor

The bible says:

'yahweh smelt the pleasing smell'.

There is a lot more to it than "stupid things", but you have a bias. You're simply unable to look at the matter objectively.

Maybe you're right, maybe they are very similar now that I've re-examined it. However this does not mean that the stories were based off each other.

Take this Aztec legend:
Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

Using your logic some how the Aztecs (even though there's no geographical connection) must have copied off the story from the Epic of Gilgamesh...

 

[Sock puppet path]

Unsupported by facts? People always build boats during floods...there's nothing else to do but build a boat or ship....its just the logical thing to do...go look on the news when there's great floods in cities people ride on boats.

If you don't even start building a boat (especially a HUGE FRIKKIN BOAT) well before a flood starts you're well and truly screwed. Look at the news indeed, so you believe that all those boats we saw floating around New Orleans weren't built until the flood started? :bravo:

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Hmmm…

Now, one of the first things the pure and virtuous Noah did after his famous voyage was to make some wine, get drunk, roll around naked, and curse his own grandchild, Canaan, for something his father did (See Genesis 9:21-27). His father, Ham, accidentally saw him naked during Noah’s little drunken stupor. So what else would one of the only “righteous” men on earth do but curse his own "righteous" son’s, son for life because of it?

What kind of a grandfather could do such a sick thing?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: What was Noah's Ark?

www.homepage.mac.com/cosmicbyproduct/web-content/noahsark.html

 

[VitalOne]

This whole flood myth thing has become very interesting...in the beginning I had thought it was just a simple coincidence that he set a dove free at the end...but why do many different stories from different parts of the world that have no geographical connection have that dove, animals being on the boat, etc...in their flood myths?

Southwest Tanzania
Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

Babylon
Gilgamesh met an old man named Utnapishtim, who told him the following story. The gods came to Utnapishtim to warn him about a terrible flood that was coming. They instructed Utnapishtim to destroy his house and build a large ship. The ship was to be 10 dozen cubits high, wide and long. Utnapishtim was to cover the ship with pitch. He was supposed to take male and female animals of all kinds, his wife and family, provisions, etc. into the ship. Once ship was completed the rain began falling intensely. The rain fell for six days and nights. Finally things calmed and the ship settled on the top of Mount Nisir. After the ship had rested for seven days Utnapishtim let loose a dove. Since the land had not dried the dove returned. Next he sent a swallow which also returned. Later he let loose a raven which never returned since the ground had dried. Utnapishtim then left the ship.

Chaldean
There was a man by the name of Xisuthrus. The god Chronos warned Xisuthrus of a coming flood and told him to build a boat. The boat was to be 5 stadia by 2 stadia. In this boat Xisuthrus was to put his family, friends and two of each animal (male and female). The flood came. When the waters started to recede he let some birds loose. They came back and he noticed they had mud on their feet. He tried again with the same results. When he tried the third time the birds did not return. Assuming the water had dried up the people got out of the boat and offered sacrifices to the gods.

Aztec
A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

Whats with the doves or birds at the end........? This is just strange...

And for those concerned that VO might be plagiarizing another source or unfairly embellishing it, here's a link to the copy/paste he did: http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

 

[SkinWalker]

There probably was a great flood and many stories stemmed from that same great flood....it doesn't mean they copied off each other....

More fallacious ignorance. Those educated in cultural histories understand that that people traditionally live near water. Even today. They also understand that water is necessary for irrigation of crops once agriculture is introduced as a food production strategy. So it follows, given the number of floods that occur today which cause great amounts of property damage, injury and death, that cultures who pray to various gods to provide water see the sudden and catastrophic inundation of it on their "world" (the region in which they live) as an act of their god(s).

This is, again, a no-brainer for the critical and reasoned mind. Moreover, there are accounts of floods across civilizations that do not chronometrically correlate, demonstrating by itself that this wasn't a single event. Finally, geologic science and physics shows us that this is complete and utter poppycock. And for those that disagree, you'll need to cite a valid scientific reference or your own scientific data that shows otherwise. The cowardly "Google it" response won't work here.

I would estimate that the great flood occured around 28,740 BCE...scientists estimate that there was a great flood around 30,000 BCE

What data and research can you cite that supports this statement? I'm also waiting on you to support your statement that it was common practice for people in antiquity to release doves ca. 3000 BCE in Sumeria. Or anywhere in Mesopotamia for that matter. Please enlighten us with the citation to that statement as well.

Skin, how do you know of any "addition of embellished details," and what supposed "adaptive literary devices" are you talking about?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1329773&postcount=34

The post above details the embellishments themselves, but are you seriously saying that you've never encountered or understood the concept of literary embellishment? Cultures adapting stories of other cultures, changing and embellishing them to suit their own? Perhaps you should read the story of Ashenputel in its original German and compare the attempts of her sisters get their feet into the shoe. Or note that the vampire legend that existed long before Braum Stroker was vastly different with the superstitious Slavs until Stroker turned them into romantic goths.

 

[SnakeLord]

Like these:
- Gilgamesh was a special man and so was Noah
- There was boat in both stories
- There was a catastrophe in both stories
- There was a flood in both stories

There's a lot more to it than that - and as I've seen from your next statement even you now acknowledge so.

However this does not mean that the stories were based off each other.

Again there's a lot more to it than that.

Using your logic some how the Aztecs (even though there's no geographical connection) must have copied off the story from the Epic of Gilgamesh...

Not exactly, although I can understand how you would come to that conclusion. Purely out of interest though you should spend some time reading about the cocaine mummies. Cocaine only comes from South America and yet the Egyptians had it. An answer to this is hard to come by except to state that there must have been some kind of trade route between them, (although it has always been doubted). This example is often cited when people mention pyramids in other parts of the world. Still, that is neither here nor there..

We must take into account that you will find flooding in many different parts of the world, hell it even floods here in England. The Nile tends to flood every single year. It is quite worthless to state that so many cultures would not have flood stories of their own. The Aztec version, (there's seemingly several and very few that are accurate but based largely on pictographs), and.. "Most significantly, the time that these myths were heard from the local people was well after missionaries entered the region" which doesn't help matters at all, doesn't really even remotely resemble Sumerian/Babylonian region flood epics. It has what you would refer to as "stupid things".

in the beginning I had thought it was just a simple coincidence that he set a dove free at the end...but why do many different stories from different parts of the world that have no geographical connection have that dove, animals being on the boat, etc...in their flood myths?

Ancient people, (more so than modern people), owned animals. If there was a flood coming it would be unlikely they'd leave their animals, (and probably only source of income), behind. I can't actually find "so many different" stories that feature a dove.

 

[SkinWalker]

Like these:
- Gilgamesh was a special man and so was Noah
- There was boat in both stories
- There was a catastrophe in both stories
- There was a flood in both stories

I don't believe I stated that Gilgamesh was the man chosen by the god to survive the flood. No wonder you have difficulty critically evaluating literary sources. Moreover, most of the flood myths you plagiarized from the link I included to keep you honest, are derived from the Christian myth of Noah and don't emerge until after Christian Missionaries attempt to force their mythologies down the throats of indigenous and aboriginal peoples they encountered. This further supports my point of literary embellishment and "borrowing" of one culture's stories by another. The Popol Vu is another example. It existed as an oral tradition long before it was written down in the post-Columbian era where elements of Christianity that they identified with are included. The religions of Voo Doo and Santaria as well as African Traditional Religions are also examples of this sort of acculturation.

Thank you for solidifying my point.

Yet another challenge for you, VO: what's the actual textual reference to the Aztec tale of Tapi and to when is it dated. Interesting that the link you plagiarized doesn't include citations, eh? It wouldn't do for their believers to have too much information, lest they dig deeper and accidentally critically analyze something and have questions.

 

[VitalOne]

We must take into account that you will find flooding in many different parts of the world, hell it even floods here in England. The Nile tends to flood every single year. It is quite worthless to state that so many cultures would not have flood stories of their own. The Aztec version, (there's seemingly several and very few that are accurate but based largely on pictographs), and.. "Most significantly, the time that these myths were heard from the local people was well after missionaries entered the region" which doesn't help matters at all, doesn't really even remotely resemble Sumerian/Babylonian region flood epics. It has what you would refer to as "stupid things".

They resemble the Sumerian/Babylonian flood myths in the same way that the Epic of Gilgamesh resembles Noah's Ark....

Here's the specific similarities:
- The flood covering everything (even the mountains)
- Animals on the boat
- The dove or bird release at the end

How do you explain the legends being carried to Tanzania to Mexico to Babylon to China, etc....?

 

[VitalOne]

I don't believe I stated that Gilgamesh was the man chosen by the god to survive the flood. No wonder you have difficulty critically evaluating literary sources.

I never said you stated it, I just said it was a stupid vague similarity...

 

[Saquist]

Your response is completely fallacious. It argues from personal incredulity and introduces a non sequitur. That you can't believe it to be possible doesn't negate the possibility that biblical mythology is adapted and borrowed, whilst being embellished and exaggerated, from much earlier written and oral traditions.

You're saying the bible isn't the most detailed of the accounts?
What evidence do you propose to reveal that shows that the bible account is definitively "borrowed"?

How is the the matching Flood accounts irrelevant to history?

Moreover, your statement that the bible includes more detail is a non sequitur because it doesn't follow that the addition of embellished details and adaptive literary devices provides validity to the myth's veracity. It would seem that your perceived deprivation is naught.

You're assuming that I meant it adds validity. You assume incorrectly. Historical and Truthful are two and very seperate subjects. It would seem that your percieved notions are your own and not mine.

But then, I've come to expect continued fallacy and lack of critical thought from the credulous and those that have already established conclusions to which they seek only data which is supportive.

what you've come to expect is far from any intrest to me. I'm intrested in Facts at this point. Your argument is also of little intrest to me as you have obviously established it upon a preconcieved perception that you've molded to place others outside your neatly defined understanding of what is believable and what is myth. You then proceed to tell me in so many words that it's not history without directly saying so there by avoiding the obvious implication that history is variable to he who tells it.

Further your erectile dysfunction is of the LEAST amount of concern to me such bizare and immoral discriptions should either be kept in your head or in your pants, despite whatever the measure of those two points may have to each other.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

That's why they call him SkinWalker.

 

[nietzschefan]

Wow typical fight on this forum, the abolutes of science and religion at each others neck.

There *IS* middle ground. Believe it or not. Comon Skinwalker, there HAVE BEEN deluges big and small in the past. Ancient Greeks even came to this conclusion from fossil remains of water-life found in their mountains.

Though the Gilgamesh-Noah telling of the med, mini-deluge is obveous rip-off, are we now to throw away all the far-flung myths of the world as absolute nonsense? If even you were able to state yes a global deluge(or at least a flooding with long range effects, or at least admit truely magnificent local floods), HAPPENED, even hard line bible-thumpers here might be less vitrolic.

Why does any subject on these forums, that happens to be interesting, run into this Apolloian, Dionysian drama over and over? Take a leap of faith (both sides!) and use some basic logic. When the last ice age ended, there HAD to be some sort of flooding. As geography changes we KNOW there is sudden effects, esp near bodies of water.

Take a breath you guys and lets have some real discussion, let's try to figure out when the Noah/Gilgamesh/Sumerian flood happened, when the GLOBAL "flood"/rise happened. Or if you know please explain, we are all interested EVEN IF WE disagree.

 

[SkinWalker]

I never said you stated it, I just said it was a stupid vague similarity...

It isn't a similarity at all, but it *is* evidence that you don't critically analyze even the words you write (or should we say copy/paste). Even the text you lifted from the creationist nutbar site correctly notes that Gilgamesh is not the one who built the boat. It was Utnapishtim.

You're saying the bible isn't the most detailed of the accounts?

It may be very detailed on a lot of things, but it is complete fabrication on many as well. http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1240627&postcount=35

What evidence do you propose to reveal that shows that the bible account is definitively "borrowed"?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1329773&postcount=34

How is the the matching Flood accounts irrelevant to history?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1329773&postcount=34

You're assuming that I meant it adds validity. You assume incorrectly. Historical and Truthful are two and very seperate subjects. It would seem that your percieved notions are your own and not mine.

You're the one that said biblical mythology is the "most detailed." Why bother making the point if you aren't saying that it is the best source for historical validity. If this isn't the case, please, enlighten us to your intent with such grandiose and fallacious statements.

I'm intrested in Facts at this point.

That, too, remains to be demonstrated.

Further your erectile dysfunction is of the LEAST amount of concern to me such bizare and immoral discriptions should either be kept in your head or in your pants, despite whatever the measure of those two points may have to each other.

When discussing biblical mythology, trope, allegory and metaphor are the best tools of analysis. But, for such a trite and tropic comment that had little value beyond its amusing metaphorical ability, I find your willingness to bring it up as a point of discussion in every response to me to date interesting in and of itself.

 

[VitalOne]

It isn't a similarity at all, but it *is* evidence that you don't critically analyze even the words you write (or should we say copy/paste). Even the text you lifted from the creationist nutbar site correctly notes that Gilgamesh is not the one who built the boat. It was Utnapishtim

You're right I should've paid more attention in History class when we learning about it...instead I just BSed the whole essay...I didn't even know that nutbar site was creationist...

 

[nietzschefan]

Skin, doesn't even the origins of these myths, how certain details captured survive the passage of time, interest you at all?

Frankly if a deluge were to happen, a person prepared for it with a robust boat, WOULD tend to survive and get to tell his story(however he saw fit), and others simply would be dead.

 

[w1z4rd]

Take this Aztec legend:
Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

Could you please show me historical record on someone called Tapi, and which God he worshipped? I believe you are quoting false data.

 

[SkinWalker]

Wow typical fight on this forum, the abolutes of science and religion at each others neck.

There *IS* middle ground. Believe it or not. Come on Skinwalker, there HAVE BEEN deluges big and small in the past. Ancient Greeks even came to this conclusion from fossil remains of water-life found in their mountains.

To that, I don't deny. Indeed, I think that the Noachian flood myth and the myth of the Atrahasis and Deluge have common points of origin. The key is pre-literate societies that may have resided in the valley between two lakes that may have existed at the center of what is now the Persian Gulf. With sea level changes (gradual -not the 40 days/7days embellished by the later written myths), residents were forced into a diaspora. The Sumerians speak of "Dilmun" when they finally begin writing; the Egyptians speak of "Punt." The Garden of Eden myth in Genesis speaks of the confluence of rivers, which bathymetry in the Gulf has revealed near the region. Other, much earlier myths of Sumeria also speak of a paradise or 'heaven-like' place of origin.

So I don't entirely discount the validity of mythology. It just isn't the "most detailed" as biblical literalists who refuse to engage critical thought and literary analysis in their own myths believe. For them, such analysis of other cultures' myths is fine, but their own myths are sacred. What utter poppycock.

 

[nietzschefan]

So I don't entirely discount the validity of mythology. It just isn't the "most detailed" as biblical literalists who refuse to engage critical thought and literary analysis in their own myths believe. For them, such analysis of other cultures' myths is fine, but their own myths are sacred. What utter poppycock.

Ok thank you, I agree.

 

[SnakeLord]

They resemble the Sumerian/Babylonian flood myths in the same way that the Epic of Gilgamesh resembles Noah's Ark....

No, they don't For instance in the Aztec story all humans are turned into fish. The only similarity you'll really find is that there was a flood.

- The dove or bird release at the end

Kindly show me which specific stories contain this element.

How do you explain the legends being carried to Tanzania to Mexico to Babylon to China, etc....?

A) Missionaries

B) It floods in different regions on earth

C) Stories shared during trades.

From a biblical perspective Abraham, (the father of the jews), was a Sumerian that travelled from Ur before founding the jews. It is prevalent to state that he would have shared the stories he heard during his upbringing with these new found friends of his. Stories that much later on would be modified/ammended and so on.

The ram caught in the thicket for instance. While excavating Ur they found various artifacts depicting a ram caught in a thicket. Was Abraham made to attempt sacrifice of his own son or does the actual story have it's roots in much earlier stories? Again, if that's the case, the earlier story would be the more accurate of them, (if any were), purely on the basis that it had been written closer to the time of the actual events. Any re-telling of that story would be an embellishment of the original.

are we now to throw away all the far-flung myths of the world as absolute nonsense? If even you were able to state yes a global deluge(or at least a flooding with long range effects, or at least admit truely magnificent local floods), HAPPENED, even hard line bible-thumpers here might be less vitrolic.

All due respect nietzschefan but nobody here is denying that floods have happened. Nobody here is denying throwing away all flood stories as 'far flung myth'. You seemingly misunderstand the point of this conversation.

Why does any subject on these forums, that happens to be interesting, run into this Apolloian, Dionysian drama over and over?

You mean.. why do issues get discussed? What would you have us do? Oh wait...

Take a leap of faith (both sides!)

A) Leprechauns really DO exist!!! Well, that was fun wasn't it.

B) Faith is not the way of science.

Take a breath you guys and lets have some real discussion

It was a real discussion until you came along to interrupt that real discussion by telling us to have a real discussion. Bizarre.

let's try to figure out when the Noah/Gilgamesh/Sumerian flood happened, when the GLOBAL "flood"/rise happened

Seems you've come to the party with a pre-formed conclusion. When? Where is the evidence to suggest it ever actually happened?