How did matter come into existence?

Z

Zelicaon

Registered Member
You can say that it has always been there, but if you really, really think about it, matter had to have come from somewhere, at least that's what makes sense to me. I'm just curious as to your theories of how it came into existence *assuming it hasnt always been there*. Note, it may have always been there, I guess I'm just curious as to explanations of how it could have come to be if that's how it occured. Thanks!

P.S. I'm new here :D Hello everyone!
 
Originally posted by Zelicaon
You can say that it has always been there, but if you really, really think about it, matter had to have come from somewhere, at least that's what makes sense to me. I'm just curious as to your theories of how it came into existence *assuming it hasnt always been there*. Note, it may have always been there, I guess I'm just curious as to explanations of how it could have come to be if that's how it occured. Thanks!

P.S. I'm new here :D Hello everyone!
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Welcome to sciforums, Zelicaon. That's quite a question you pose there. The most popular explanation is that matter came from fluctuations in a pre-existing quantum vacuum. These fluctuations are caused by virtual particles that simply pop into and out of existence.

The properties of virtual particles are described by the uncertainty principle and the law of conservation of matter and energy. In a low-energy environment, massive particles cannot borrow enough energy to exist in any quantity for any minute amount of time. This is why we do not observe the creation of these particles in our everyday life.

However, in a high-energy environment such as that which existed at the beginning of the universe, there would have been adequate energy for the creation of massive particles. Massive particles have actually been created by scientists by using high-energy accelerators. The creation of matter from nothing (a quantum vacuum), is a testable scientific fact.

Hope this helps.
 
In religious terms, this is a red herring. If matter came from X, where did X come from. If X doesn't need a source, why does matter?

Until we see matter pop out of 'nowhere' (quantum flux) we have no reason to assume we know the source. Now the question is just "Where'd the flux come from?"
 
Originally posted by Persol
"Where'd the flux come from?"
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Where indeed? Some would say it must have come from a creator. But then we are left with the question of where the creator came from. Better just to wonder where the flux came from. No reason to attribute phenomena to that for which there is no evidence.
 
that's easy, zelcaon- by god's spoken word did all matter come into existance
eg: genesis: and god said....
 
Re: Re: How did matter come into existence?

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Welcome to sciforums, Zelicaon. That's quite a question you pose there. The most popular explanation is that matter came from fluctuations in a pre-existing quantum vacuum. These fluctuations are caused by virtual particles that simply pop into and out of existence.

The properties of virtual particles are described by the uncertainty principle and the law of conservation of matter and energy. In a low-energy environment, massive particles cannot borrow enough energy to exist in any quantity for any minute amount of time. This is why we do not observe the creation of these particles in our everyday life.

However, in a high-energy environment such as that which existed at the beginning of the universe, there would have been adequate energy for the creation of massive particles. Massive particles have actually been created by scientists by using high-energy accelerators. The creation of matter from nothing (a quantum vacuum), is a testable scientific fact.

Hope this helps.
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Your understanding of matter creation is quite lacking. In accelerators, they take pre-existing particles, and slam them together, and the kinetic energy creates larger particles, using a energy to mass conversion, but one still had to start with at least two particles to begin with.

One could also look at the compton effect where a high energy gamma passing near a heavy nucleus (e.g. lead) will produce an electron, and a positron. But no particle larger that that can be produced. This is not getting something from nothing, because that one had to start out with a source for that high-energy gamma, and needed a heavy nucleus, to begin with.
 
Zelicaon:

Since you chose to post this in the Religion forum rather than the Physics forum, I take it you probably have one particular solution in mind. Do you?
 
I pose a question in response to Jade's Post:

Where indeed? Some would say it must have come from a creator. But then we are left with the question of where the creator came from.
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Atheists argue, based on occam's razor, that if you're going to say that the creator has always existed, you might as well just say that the universe has always existed and cut out the middleman. Sure, makes plenty of sense to me, but think hard about it:

Isn't it easier to accept that a spirit/force has always existed than to accept that matter has always existed? Try to imagine an eternal force/spirit having always existed, something with no physical properties, something existing purely outside of the physical realm, and then try to imagine matter having always existed.

What I'm getting at is that it seems easier to believe that something non-physical has always existed than that matter has always existed, at least to me. Not that it makes sense, but that it makes more sense that something matterless could have always existed.

I am by no means saying that this justifies that a nonphysical being is responsible for the universe, but that there is a reason why some people feel the need to include this nonphysical middleman.

Here's a site which better explains my point:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/WhoCreatedGod/WhoCreatedGod.html
 
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The Man-Made Bible

Originally posted by firingseeds
agnostic, man's not smart enough to make up the bible
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But they did! Of course with the help and encouragement of Saul/Paul. That's why none of it is true.
 
I don't know, nor do I need to know. What I do know is that I'm a sentient, rational, logical being who lives in a vast universe filled with mystery and wonder. I live on a world where my species has risen to prominence and I live in an area of luxury. I have a billion choices with which to build my future and a long life ahead to make those choices. I have other sentient, mostly rational, sometimes logical beings to share my experiences with. I live each day trying to do what makes me happy and what I believe to be right. What more do I need to know? Who cares if matter existed forever? It's here now and that's the important thing.
 
The topic of this thread is a very old and rhetorical question used by theists.

Basicly the theist says "Where did the universe come from"

then the atheist has to say "We really dont know"

then the thist asserts "Well that means that not only does my god exist, but that everything in this book is true"

and assumes that questions like "where did god come from" are invalid because they are not posted in the book.
 
Originally posted by firingseeds
agnostic, man's not smart enough to make up the bible
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Just imagine the depths of wisdom and intelligence required to fabicate talking snakes, six-winged angels, giants, virgin births, suicidal pigs, and saints crawling out of their graves and strolling through Jerusalem.
 
spymoose

the other assertion is just as mind-boggling- the earth made itself, the universe all came together perfectly, the sun and stars just slotted into place; and soforth.
 
Re: Re: Re: How did matter come into existence?

Originally posted by biblthmp
Your understanding of matter creation is quite lacking.
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Jade Squirrel was referring to virtual particles which come into existence from literally nothing and shortly return. Their effect of their existence is known as the Casimir effect.

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/9/6

The theory that the Universe could have occurred from such a vacuum fluctuation was first proposed by Edward Tyron in 1973. The theory has been expanded upon since by such notables as Stephen Hawking who hypothesizes that the Universe is a self-contained fluctuation wherein references to "before" are simply meaningless (similar to asking what is south of the South Pole).

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=541

~Raithere
 
evidence and perfection

Originally posted by SyllacrosticAgnostic
Isn't it easier to accept that a spirit/force has always existed than to accept that matter has always existed?
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'Easier to accept' has nothing to do with it. Evidence is the key element. There is no reliable evidence what-so-ever to support the notion of a 'spirit/force', the best one can come up with are anecdotal stories where the assumed cause for some phenomena or event is spiritual or supernatural. On the other-hand there is really no driving reason to assume that matter/energy is not eternal. Energy changes form but never disappears.

Originally posted by firingseeds
the other assertion is just as mind-boggling- the earth made itself, the universe all came together perfectly, the sun and stars just slotted into place; and soforth.
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By what measure do you define your use of 'perfectly' here? Do you have something to compare this Universe against to determine its level of perfection? The Universe simply is the way it is...

~Raithere
 
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