How did jesus walk on water?

[SkinWalker]

So we have two phenomena

One is the writings of persons in highly philosophical treatises about the nature of reality.

The other is the works by story tellers who's expertise lies purely in creating fiction.

I'm sorry... what "writings of persons in highly philosophical treatises" was being discussed? I thought the topic called into question the mythologies of religious superstitions. While there are some "facts" in them (how people dressed, talked, interacted socially, what they ate, etc.) there is little history that has verification to them. Certainly the magical aspects can be summarily dismissed with regard to reality but fully accepted on their entertainment value. Even the moral codes within many of these "treatises" are incompatible with modern humanity and are easily dismissed.

 

[SkinWalker]

According to the Yoga Sutras memory (smriti) and deep habit patterns (samskaras) are intimately connected. This is found to be true in psychology and neurology. According to you, the Yoga Sutras is all fantasy, so then why is that statement in the Yoga Sutras true (4.9)?

Wow. A religious nutter from antiquity figured out that his memory and his habits have a correlation and suddenly the rest of the nutters can "fly" if they wish hard enough. What bullshit.

 

[lightgigantic]

SkinWalker

There's no good evidence that a person whom we refer to as "Jesus" did exist. But that point is irrelevant.

what evidence do you require for an eyewitness account from about 2000 years ago?

The teachings and wisdom alleged to the alleged christ are sound, for the most part. If he was a real person, then his philosophy would stand on its own merit if, indeed, the philosophy attributed to him were his.

What is disagreed with by the reasoned mind is that there is a need to attribute this character with magic.

Then why have many reasoned minds offerred testimonies contrary to yours?

The literary evidence presented to us in the Christian bible is such that we can dismiss the five gospels as legitimate observations of direct witnesses. They simply weren't for a whole host of reasons that, perhaps, deserve their own thread.

Frankly, the arguments by atheistic ancient historians against the existence of the bible are not very convincing - to determine the truth of an eye witness account 2000 years ago by dint of anthropological evidences is incredibly speculative. There is even historical controversy over events as recent and documented as WW2

Dismissing the validity of the "witnesses" as direct observers, we can then understand that the feats of magic attributed to Jesus were but regurgitations of feats of magic expected by the divine during the period

.
Its not clear what argument you established to dismiss eye witness accouts from 2000 years ago

Thus, no reason to accept magical nonsense like "walking on water" since this simply isn't within the boundaries of physics as we know it unless the water is presented in its solid state assuming that Jesus didn't wear big, inflatable shoes.

there are lots of things that aren't within the boundaries of physics - the human mind is one that comes to mind ...

So, what we are left with, in such a discussion, is exactly what LG suggested: pre-determined conclusions for which information is filtered to fit. Except, the conclusion is that such miracles are fact and normal and all evidence to the contrary is ignored in favor of the magical explanation. Poppycock.

confidence statement

SkinWalker

I'm sorry... what "writings of persons in highly philosophical treatises" was being discussed?

you tell me

What would be "surprising" is if Bronze Age authors of modern superstition didn't find similar "skills" fantastic enough to imagine and write of.

I thought the topic called into question the mythologies of religious superstitions.

Seems like I am mistaken - I thought we were discussing the claims of self realized souls

While there are some "facts" in them (how people dressed, talked, interacted socially, what they ate, etc.) there is little history that has verification to them.

lol - the verification for many things 2000 years ago is also quite minimal - I mean if you think determing what food a people of a certain culture and time ate is a ground breaking discovery, it indicates that one would also be bereft of a few essential details of that culture

Certainly the magical aspects can be summarily dismissed with regard to reality

If you are not currently omniscient it becomes difficult to determine on what authority you can use the word "reality"

but fully accepted on their entertainment value.

The entertainment value of the Vedanta Sutra would seem to be the inspiration it offers to speculative ancient historians - otherwise it functions as a philosophical treatise

Even the moral codes within many of these "treatises" are incompatible with modern humanity and are easily dismissed.

Given that morality establishes itself on very pliable foundations, its not clear what you are trying to say

 

[KennyJC]

To address the topic... I aplogise for my vagueness but I would rather post this now than wait till tommorrow morning.

Jesus simply did not walk on water. It is an impossability. There are so many miracles attributed to Jesus, that we must assume the the most likely option is that his life has been shamelessly embelished by who subsequent followers.

He must have had a martyr death which is why I assume his story in the new testament is based on half truths. There were so many religious sects in competition and so his must has became dominant due to religious preaching following his death. He was just a normal person.

I appologise for this ill thought out post, for I was under the influence. But I simply could not leave this till the morning. Thanks.

 

[madanthonywayne]

There's no good evidence that a person whom we refer to as "Jesus" did exist.

Well, we have the bible which contains detailed descriptions of his philosophy and life. We have the effect he had on world history.

Can you prove that Julius Ceaser existed? What about Plato? Or Socrates?

I don't know what kind of proof you're looking for regarding something that happened two thousand years ago. But I'd say denying the existance of a Jesus is akin to claiming that we never landed on the moon.

 

[SkinWalker]

I don't know what kind of proof you're looking for regarding something that happened two thousand years ago. But I'd say denying the existance of a Jesus is akin to claiming that we never landed on the moon.

I've held a moon rock. I've never held the bones of Jesus. Nor are there any archaeological or epigraphical artifacts that support the existence of Jesus. There are artifacts that corroborate the existence of various other historical figures -artifacts that exist with independent sources and are properly dated to a contemporary period. The same cannot be said for Jesus, though I concede there may have been an early Jewish cult leader that this hero myth is based upon.

Still, there is far more evidence that such a figure is based upon other hero figures of contemporary and earlier periods and that the "witnesses" were not even acquainted with the geography of the region they were supposed to have "followed" Jesus. Indeed, the various 'gospels' have literary connections to each other. And the fact that the mythology of the old testament doesn't match the archaeology of the Levant offers to us that there is no "divine authorship" but, rather, the opinions and agenda of the Jewish nation.

SkinWalker
what evidence do you require for an eyewitness account from about 2000 years ago? Then why have many reasoned minds offerred testimonies contrary to yours? Frankly, the arguments by atheistic ancient historians against the existence of the bible are not very convincing - to determine the truth of an eye witness account 2000 years ago by dint of anthropological evidences is incredibly speculative. There is even historical controversy over events as recent and documented as WW2. Its not clear what argument you established to dismiss eye witness accouts from 2000 years ago

there are lots of things that aren't within the boundaries of physics - the human mind is one that comes to mind ...

Eyewitness accounts from 2 kya should be objective and without agenda. They should be corroborated by similar accounts of unrelated individuals with a different perspective; they should not be redactions of each other; they should be able to get the geography correct (one or more of the 'gospels' fails miserably at this) if it is to be considered a factual account (if the observer can't understand which side of Galilee a village is, why should we believe anything magical he has to say?).

Which 'reasoned minds' have what, precisely, to say on the subject. Let's debate it. The 'atheistic historians' arguments against biblical authenticity isn't convincing because the superstitious historians have pre-conceived conclusions to which they seek data. They ignore any data that contradicts their conclusions.

The under-educated suggest that anthropological and archaeological examination of the Levant cannot inform us about the authenticity of the bible, but they are dead wrong. There is much that we can determine from looking at the material record. The facts about cities like Jericho, Meggido for instance. But this would require cracking a book or two and critically examining the data. If you haven't done so, its easy to dismiss the discovery of science, particularly when it runs contrary to conclusions already drawn. And for those that have perused the data, yet still dismiss it, they do so with a bit less ease, yet continue to do so -evident by their complete inability to adequately explain why the data contradicts biblical mythology.

I didn't go into this data in detail, but am more than able. This, however, probably isn't the thread for it. Rest assured, I can present summaries of archaeological data that contradict many points made in biblical mythology should anyone be interested in starting that thread.

 

[krakatoa]

I always tought it was ice, I think a lot of things in the bible is true, in the sense, that peoples that wrote it, describe things, as the peoples interviewed, was telling them. All this started for more than 4,000 years ago, as for Jesus, the new testament, more thant 2,000 years ago. So we have to be open about this. Krakatoa. It is only an opinion.

 

[tablariddim]

How can I actually prove it? All I can really say is in my opinion, Jesus, the Son of the most high, really did walk on water because its just another power that people with elevated consicousness naturally possess.

So if Jesus really was the Son of the most high, a true spiritual master, a perfected being, he would by nature possess these powers, and perform many miracles.

Here's what Gautama Buddha says about iddhis or Superhuman powers:

"In the miracle of Iddhi, Iddhipatihariya (Superhuman power) the Bhikkhu experiences various kinds of power. From one form he becomes many, and from many he becomes one again; he becomes visible or invisible, passes through wall and rocks without touching them, as if they were space. He dives into and emerges from the earth as if it were water, and walks on water without disturbing the surface as if it were land; sitting crossed-legged, he moves in the sky like a bird. The Moon and the Sun in all their majesty, he touches and strokes with his hand, continuing with his body up to the realm of Brahma. When trusting person sees the Bhikkhu perform these acts, he relates it to some sceptic saying "The power and majesty of the Samana are stupendous. I saw him transforming himself from one form into many and so on." Then the sceptic says "That is the 'Gandhara charm' making the Bhikkhu perform those acts. What do you think, Kevaddha, would not the sceptic say so to the trusting one?" Kevaddha replied "He would, Sir." Thereupon, the Buddha warned "Well, seeing this advantage of the iddhi miracles, I am vexed with them; I deplore them and am disgusted with them"

Here's what the Yoga Sutras say:

"By mastery of the vital energy situated in the throat, the Yogi can float or walk on water, swamps, thorns and so forth without touching them, for this is the power of levitation and ascension." (Yoga Sutras, 3.40)

There are millions of practicing Buddhists and also a fair number of Yogis in this world. We have TV channels and media that are hungry for anything sensationalistic, miraculous or anything that would leave us open mouthed. Therefore, why hasn't anyone ever witnessed and recorded any of the phenomena you mention in your post?

The answer is that the aforementioned phenomena are bullshit at worst and perhaps analogies at best. Given that none of these tricks can be demonstrated, it is fair to assume that they cannot, because they are impossible to. Therefore, quoting the empty statements of your sources is meaningless and absolutely pointless.

 

[Kendall]

I always thought of Jesus walking on water as one of the things that was added so people would be less likely to believe, the things I learned in school about religion was non-sence, it's like they only told us things that would make it less likely to believe. Our world is not a perfect place where everybody deserves what they get, knowledge can be stolen, hidden, we can be tricked. I can remember in school getting a test back and one kid(a teachers child) got over 80, I had like 65 or something, I looked over the tests and there were answers that were the exact same only for his barely readable printing, I got them wrong and he got them right, there were answers I had right and he had wrong, his were marked correct and mine wrong, I dont even think the teacher read the answers, just gave what they thought was fitting or acceptable,lol, I was lower class I guess.

 

[VitalOne]

There are millions of practicing Buddhists and also a fair number of Yogis in this world. We have TV channels and media that are hungry for anything sensationalistic, miraculous or anything that would leave us open mouthed. Therefore, why hasn't anyone ever witnessed and recorded any of the phenomena you mention in your post?

The answer is that the aforementioned phenomena are bullshit at worst and perhaps analogies at best. Given that none of these tricks can be demonstrated, it is fair to assume that they cannot, because they are impossible to. Therefore, quoting the empty statements of your sources is meaningless and absolutely pointless.

People have reportedly witnessed things like these. They're very common for anyone constantly in samadhi. There's nothing mystical about them, all of the miracles Jesus performed are just abilities naturally gained. Also not just anyone can gain them, you would have to be in the state of samadhi...

And as for the media, even if someone did catch it on camera or a photograph, you would hear atheists and skeptics saying it was all a magic trick.

Thats why The Buddha discourages people from using supernormal powers to impress or convince others, he says the skeptical will insist that you've performed a magic trick and the faithful will remain faithful, so what have you accomplished?

 

[SkinWalker]

People report ufos and bigfoot as well as all sorts of silliness. If such powers truly existed among the nutters that claim them, surely they would be able to reproduce them for the skeptic to evaluate.

Yet they do not. Reason: they're liars.

 

[Michael]

Or alternatively, if as the buddhists advocate, it is a generic symptom of ascetism, its hardly surprising that jesus walked on water, since such a description would tally with his callibre.

In other words given that there are certain claims about the type of personality that jesus was, its not clear why he is assumed to be bereft of the characteristics/qualifications that such personalities are readily identified by.

Have you ever seen a person walk on water barefoot? It is physically impossible.

 

[Michael]

Exactly, it would be more surprising if Jesus never performed an miracles at all or never possessed any supernormal powers, as they are natural symptoms...

Have you yourself ever seen a person walk barefoot on top of a deep pool of water?

 

[Michael]

Can you prove that Julius Ceaser existed? What about Plato? Or Socrates?

In the case of Julius Caesar and Plato there are many contemporary accounts of their deeds and hence their existence is highly likely.

1) In the case this Greek named character called “Jesus”, who purportedly was the son of a God and a woman (much like Hercules). There is no contemporary mention of Jesus – unlike say Julius Caesar.

2) About half of the early Christians themselves claimed Jesus was fictional. An allegory.

3) The main points of the Jesus allegory (virgin birth, half-God, died for humans sins etc..) are mirrored in the hundreds of much OLDER Mystery cults prevalent at the time. Really, it appears that Jews made up their own Hellonized-Jewish mystery cult. As had everyone else.


Really, if Xianity had never taken root and you, as an Archeologist, happened upon the Jesus parables you’d undoubtedly but him into the category of Hercules and Mithra.


Agreed?

Michael

 

[lightgigantic]

Have you ever seen a person walk on water barefoot? It is physically impossible.

which brings us to the discussion of the laws of physics and whether a law can exist without a law maker ......

 

[(Q)]

which brings us to the discussion of the laws of physics and whether a law can exist without a law maker ......

The laws of physics weren't "made" by a "law maker." They were simply discovered.

If you wish to assert the laws of physics WERE made by a law maker, please do so demonstrably.

 

[VitalOne]

Have you ever seen a person walk on water barefoot? It is physically impossible.

I don't think its physically impossible, I mean if you can walk on water then you must be able to make your body lighter....its just a common symptom of ascetism...nothing new or special...

If your body was lighter and you walked on water you wouldn't be breaking any laws of physics....

 

[lightgigantic]

The laws of physics weren't "made" by a "law maker." They were simply discovered.

If you wish to assert the laws of physics WERE made by a law maker, please do so demonstrably.

If you can negotiate the dark recesses of science to determine exactly what it is that supports all th e physical axioms, be our guest. (You seem to have confidence that they weren't made from a conscious entity, which seems like an extraordinary experience regarding the establishment of complex structures)

 

[Satyr]

I have a better idea. Every time reality baffles us, because we are ignorant or plain dumb, let us call that ‘the hand of God’.

When we cannot use one epistemology to argue our point, let us invent a new one.

And what would the authority of this new epistemology of ontology rest upon?
Hearsay, a Book, Scripture, Hope, Ignorance, Stupidity?

One judges the reliability of a friend by his past performances in relation to us.
One judges authorities similarly.

Remarkable how ‘holy men, trying to discredit Dawkins, for example, are then found screwing male prostitutes and buying drugs.
What does this say about the religious mind?
It is ripe for exploitation by charlatans and ‘do-gooders’; naïve, gullible little minds, burdened by fear and drugged up on hope to cope with their many insecurities.

I know the in science a scientist is discredited and dismissed when his theories do not pan out. His theories are abandoned.
In religion, it’s all blamed on the individual, and the dogma remains unscathed.

That’s right, the Earth is 6 000 years old and a timeless, spaceless, omnipotent, omniscient, conscious entity somehow requires a creative expression and constructs reality.
Then, already knowing everything, he tests the beings he’s made in a particular manner and for which he has total knowledge of, to satisfy his vanity or to what?

How does something exist without being in time and space?

How?
I'll tell you how:
Uh…science is imperfect and makes mistakes.
That’s how.

A Neanderthal sees fire.
He’s afraid. He doesn’t know how it is produced.
He imagines spirits.

Another tells him that the fire seems to be produced from within the wood, that something is occurring to make the flame.
He thinks, for a moment, then challenges him
“How?”
“I don’t know” the first says.
“See” he says “I told you it was spirits and magic”.

The others inability to answer all of his questions becomes proof for his own hoped for assumptions, for which he has little more than his fear and hope to guide him.

 

[Michael]

which brings us to the discussion of the laws of physics and whether a law can exist without a law maker ......

I don't think its physically impossible, I mean if you can walk on water then you must be able to make your body lighter....its just a common symptom of ascetism...nothing new or special...

If your body was lighter and you walked on water you wouldn't be breaking any laws of physics....

I’m still curious – have either of you two actually seen someone walk barefoot on top of deep water?

If not – then why believe it is so?


It seems to me that if it were so, then ascetics would be walking on deep water all of the time. Why walk way over there to cross by a bridge when one can simply cross by walking over top the water right here? I have never heard nor seen of a person doing such a thing on a regular base in the news or such. Which implies it doens't happen.


Michael II