How Did Jesus Die for my sins
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snake river rufus
Registered Senior Member
Umm, yes it is really hard to believeTW Scott said:
Imagine that... god impregnates a human then gets his 'half human son' to go and defeat a being that god also made, that hasn't actually been defeated because at the end times he's loosed on the world to cause chaos for 1000 years, before the demi-god comes back down, proclaims himself ruler and master and then destroys the universe.
hmm.
TW Scott said:
*************
M*W: You're right. It's not so hard to believe.
If you're a fucking idiot.
Quote Snake:
“Imagine that... god impregnates a human then gets his 'half human son' to go and defeat a being that god also made, that hasn't actually been defeated because at the end times he's loosed on the world to cause chaos for 1000 years, before the demi-god comes back down, proclaims himself ruler and master and then destroys the universe.”
* Nicely put Snakelord. Or as Diderot so beautifully pointed out …
“The Son of God died purposely to vanquish the Devil. In order to gain his point he was reduced to the necessity of dying, and yet the Devil has ever since had the ascendancy. How then are we benefitted by the death of the Son of God?
The God of the Christians, for an apple, punished all the human race and killed his own son. This only proves that God is a father who makes a great deal to do about his apples, and cares very little for his children.
A God that killed God to appease God, was an expressive phrase of La Hontan, a phrase of itself sufficient to destroy the Christian religion, a phrase that will still retain its absurdity, should one hundred folio volumes be written to prove it rational.”
* And no, it appears the absurdity bothers the faithful not one iota. But then Pavlov had his dog, and had his day.
“Imagine that... god impregnates a human then gets his 'half human son' to go and defeat a being that god also made, that hasn't actually been defeated because at the end times he's loosed on the world to cause chaos for 1000 years, before the demi-god comes back down, proclaims himself ruler and master and then destroys the universe.”
* Nicely put Snakelord. Or as Diderot so beautifully pointed out …
“The Son of God died purposely to vanquish the Devil. In order to gain his point he was reduced to the necessity of dying, and yet the Devil has ever since had the ascendancy. How then are we benefitted by the death of the Son of God?
The God of the Christians, for an apple, punished all the human race and killed his own son. This only proves that God is a father who makes a great deal to do about his apples, and cares very little for his children.
A God that killed God to appease God, was an expressive phrase of La Hontan, a phrase of itself sufficient to destroy the Christian religion, a phrase that will still retain its absurdity, should one hundred folio volumes be written to prove it rational.”
* And no, it appears the absurdity bothers the faithful not one iota. But then Pavlov had his dog, and had his day.
Sure, all those things are absurd, stretched. Then again, I don't believe any of them.
He was expected to lead his people to freedom and be their King. The quite remarkable disparity between Jewish prophecy and what was actually achieved by Yeshua bar-Yusuf seems to me to be evident, but is completely unnoticed by Christians. There is an apologetic website called christiananswers I found recently where they go into detail about prophecy, and I still cannot quite understand how it is continually supposed that Jesus was a fulfillment. For example, they place a close parallelism between the life of Jesus and the life of Moses, or the life of Jesus and the life of David. But Moses and David actually led the people. Jesus had a handful of actual followers and a host of people willing to hear him speak, but he wielded no actual authority himself. Moses and David both made substantial changes to the life of the whole Jewish nation within their lifetimes, and set up a future. Jesus is scarcely noted in Jewish history, at least not until Christianity (which of course was nothing to do with Jesus himself, he having died after only a year or two of preaching) became a serious threat to them.Mosheh Thezion said:
But according to Jewish belief, they "prosper" because they are God's chosen people, and are prohibited from following Gentile ways. Except that the Gentiles seem to do pretty well as well, especially when you consider the Christian hegemony (esp. pre-1850) of Western Europe, the richest and most prosperous portion of the world. Conversely, Christian doctrine states that the Jews are damned because they have rejected Jesus Christ the son of God - despite which they do, as it seems, prosper as individuals.Mosheh Thezion said:
Actually this is true - regardless of the contradictory things he is supposed to have said and done, and the contradictory things said about him, his nature, his worship by those who came after (all found in the Bible), the majority of people with any form of Christian belief have a view of Jesus based upon his compassion for the poor and the weak, his great wisdom, and above all his championing of Love. Individually they may actually violate quite severely those standards, even while attempting to hold up what they believe them to be.Mosheh Thezion said:
An enormous amount of pain has been caused and blood has been spilt in the name of Christ - but in reality the spritual cause has just been a facade for grabbing money, land, power. On the other hand, the good that has been done in his name has at least the merit of being genuinely prompted by nothing more than an attempt to meet the standard apparently (though not actually in the Bible) personified by Jesus himself.
Spot. On. A few years ago I would have really scoffed at this - but particularly in the United States, eschatological thinking has become more and more dominant. The Secretary of the Interior who, twenty years ago (James Watt, was it?), was allowing mining and oil interests to ruin the environment on the grounds that "Jesus is coming soon", was an aberration back then. Today it is a position that has enormous influence in the Bush Administration.Moshe Thezion said:
As I hope to have shown you, it is possible to extract the good from what he said and consider it, as you said, a worthy basis for civilisation - but why is it then necessary to worship him and consider him your King and Master? If he isn't God ... if in fact there is no God, then Jesus as an individual consciousness turned to dust long, long ago. How can he be a master in that case? As a mentor, as someone to look up to and emulate, sure. But this continued need for Christians to utterly subsume their beings to submission and "obedience" to a long-dead hero is something that remains beyond me.Moshe Thezion said:
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
i DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS... as i do not worship anything..
worship and prayer are for the self...
the commands of GOD, AND JESUS.. are to obey....
prayer and worship can never... NEVER... make up for a life of disobedience.
people think it can... but they obviously dont read the old and new testiment.
especially the old.
-MT
worship and prayer are for the self...
the commands of GOD, AND JESUS.. are to obey....
prayer and worship can never... NEVER... make up for a life of disobedience.
people think it can... but they obviously dont read the old and new testiment.
especially the old.
-MT
No, I suppose they can't - but by setting up a mystical deistic being as having authority and the right to obediance, you are de facto worshipping that deity. I never meant to imply that you participated in any ritual, went to church or shul or even prayed - but you do "worship" Jesus and God, just the same.Mosheh Thezion said:
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
You all have the same problem... you equate GOD with the messed up religions of man....
religion is an attempt to understand GOD... thats it..
and that is something we cannot actually do...
but if we read the scriptures we find a wonderful amount of really good logic and reasonning for our day to day lives and behavior.
ie.. be good, loving, caring.. sharing...
dont be greedy, selfish, hateful and mean...
none of which requires a religion to do... but guess what?
religion has been doing it for mankind long before humanism or modern athiest arguements were developed.
religion is a good thing...
and if people want to worship and pray thats fine.. its between them and GOD.
MEN WANT TO BE WORSHIPPED..... hence the source of the idea that A god would want to be worshipped as well...
He may want our praise... and obediense yes... but worship is an ego thing...
-MT
religion is an attempt to understand GOD... thats it..
and that is something we cannot actually do...
but if we read the scriptures we find a wonderful amount of really good logic and reasonning for our day to day lives and behavior.
ie.. be good, loving, caring.. sharing...
dont be greedy, selfish, hateful and mean...
none of which requires a religion to do... but guess what?
religion has been doing it for mankind long before humanism or modern athiest arguements were developed.
religion is a good thing...
and if people want to worship and pray thats fine.. its between them and GOD.
MEN WANT TO BE WORSHIPPED..... hence the source of the idea that A god would want to be worshipped as well...
He may want our praise... and obediense yes... but worship is an ego thing...
-MT
Such as?
It is worth pointing out that for every instance you could find of worthwhile advice, I'm certain I could find ten such instances of that same book telling you to stone naughty children to death and all kinds of other things that completely negate any value the book might have had without them.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
im not telling you to believe any of it... scripture..
im not telling you that its all the actual words of GOD..
THE BOOK OF JOB... for example.. was originally a play... thats right.. a play.
for the stage... it was a work of fiction.
but constatine and his buddies liked it as it personifies both the devil and GOD... and is a really cool story...
but it is not the words of GOD... never was.. never will be.
they say lots of things about scripture... i dont.
but that does not take away from the abundance of good in such scripture.
alot of the old testiment is jewish history.... not GODS WORDs...
and as such.. that history.. like most cultures if full of raping and killing.
-MT
im not telling you that its all the actual words of GOD..
THE BOOK OF JOB... for example.. was originally a play... thats right.. a play.
for the stage... it was a work of fiction.
but constatine and his buddies liked it as it personifies both the devil and GOD... and is a really cool story...
but it is not the words of GOD... never was.. never will be.
they say lots of things about scripture... i dont.
but that does not take away from the abundance of good in such scripture.
alot of the old testiment is jewish history.... not GODS WORDs...
and as such.. that history.. like most cultures if full of raping and killing.
-MT
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
The following is but a sample of scripture, which most churches today do not focus on. .
From the Gospel of ST. Matthew : (king James version)
Chapter 7 : (verses 9-12) (9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone????? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Chapter 19 : (verses 20-24) (20) The young man saith unto him, all these things I have kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (23) Then Jesus said unto his disciples, verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (24) And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Chapter 22 : (verses 35-39) (35) Then one of them, Which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the greatest law? (37) Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) That is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Chapter 25 : (verses 35-46) (35) For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink : I was a stranger, and ye took me in : (36) naked, and ye clothed me : I was sick, and ye visited me : I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty? And gave ye drink? (38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came to thee? (40) And the king shall answer and say unto them, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (41) Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42) For I was hungred, and ye gave me no meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink : (43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in : naked, and ye clothed me not : sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee??? (45) Then shall he answer them, saying, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment : But the righteous into life eternal.
also Duet... OLD TESTIMENT.
.Deut. 15:7 "If there will be a poor man among you... you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand toward your poor brother; you shall open your hand to him and shall give him enough for his needs"
Deut 15.11 “… therefore I command
thee, saying, thy shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.”
Lev. 25:35 "and if thy brother be waxen Poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then Thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; …”
The Bible says that one who is merciful to the poor is like one who lends money
to G-d (Proverbs 19:17)
-MT
From the Gospel of ST. Matthew : (king James version)
Chapter 7 : (verses 9-12) (9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone????? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Chapter 19 : (verses 20-24) (20) The young man saith unto him, all these things I have kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (23) Then Jesus said unto his disciples, verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (24) And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Chapter 22 : (verses 35-39) (35) Then one of them, Which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the greatest law? (37) Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) That is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Chapter 25 : (verses 35-46) (35) For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink : I was a stranger, and ye took me in : (36) naked, and ye clothed me : I was sick, and ye visited me : I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty? And gave ye drink? (38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came to thee? (40) And the king shall answer and say unto them, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (41) Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42) For I was hungred, and ye gave me no meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink : (43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in : naked, and ye clothed me not : sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee??? (45) Then shall he answer them, saying, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment : But the righteous into life eternal.
also Duet... OLD TESTIMENT.
.Deut. 15:7 "If there will be a poor man among you... you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand toward your poor brother; you shall open your hand to him and shall give him enough for his needs"
Deut 15.11 “… therefore I command
thee, saying, thy shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.”
Lev. 25:35 "and if thy brother be waxen Poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then Thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; …”
The Bible says that one who is merciful to the poor is like one who lends money
to G-d (Proverbs 19:17)
-MT
see it: 'Jesu is 'Chrestos' the psychedelic unction, the 'mesiah' 'annointed one'....
'sins' are guilt, things needing 'confessin' to 'God'
'God' IS the psychedelic unction which is annointed
then is the interpretation of 'purification'---an orgiasticecstatic release of pent up emotion etc
this INTERPRETATION and ritual has been influenced by Orphism
the Orphics reformed the more Earthy ecstatic Dionysian rituals which were more CELEBRATORY and wild, and connectd with te Goddess stream,not thepatriarchal 'God'/Apollo/solar-god/etc
The Christian myth has the mthic motif ogf 'Jesus' dying for sins of mankind
tis is a variation appropriation of a long lineage of similarpagan myths of a dying vegetative god
difference with the Judeao Christian myth is that thelatter demands it be believed as historical, and any actial experience with a psychedelic sacrament is taboo and prohibited
'sins' are guilt, things needing 'confessin' to 'God'
'God' IS the psychedelic unction which is annointed
then is the interpretation of 'purification'---an orgiasticecstatic release of pent up emotion etc
this INTERPRETATION and ritual has been influenced by Orphism
the Orphics reformed the more Earthy ecstatic Dionysian rituals which were more CELEBRATORY and wild, and connectd with te Goddess stream,not thepatriarchal 'God'/Apollo/solar-god/etc
The Christian myth has the mthic motif ogf 'Jesus' dying for sins of mankind
tis is a variation appropriation of a long lineage of similarpagan myths of a dying vegetative god
difference with the Judeao Christian myth is that thelatter demands it be believed as historical, and any actial experience with a psychedelic sacrament is taboo and prohibited