How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

[greenberg]

How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

Each theist or groups of theists presumes they have the right understanding of God - how come they don't take on other theists who think differently?

How come theists engage in discussion mostly only with atheists and agnostics, but rarely with other theists?

It is almost as if the theist vs. theist confrontations are avoided.

Frankly, the discussions theists have with atheists and agnostics are merely cosmetical in comparison to the weighty issues to be discussed between theists of different denominations.
Atheists and agnostics are easy targets, it's easy to show where or how they are -supposedly or not- wrong.


What I would like to see, for example, is that the Christians and the Vaishnavas and the Muslims and the Jews get into an in-depth discussion on whether Jesus is the only path to salvation or not.

 

[Simon Anders]

I have occasional spats with other theists.

(I have also been hoping that hard and soft atheists and agnostics would have spats and more importantly demand as much rigor from each other as they do from theists.)

But it's a good point and I would happily join in a specific topic thread. The jesus one is not of so much interest for me, but I would weigh in.

How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

I think one partial answer is that discussions between theists get entered by atheists and the issue becomes total rather than specific.

I am also not sure how many people here actually come from a specific tradition.

Interesting door opening.

 

[Betrayer0fHope]

Because it's easier to argue with someone whose beliefs aren't entirely different than yours. Between a theist and an atheist, one believes something, the other doesn't. It's that simple. But with Hindus and Jews, there are huge differences that have to be discussed.

Edit: Funny enough, there are a lot of Agnostic vs Atheist threads thanks to Norsefire.

 

[Kadark]

The belief in God is the central message, which all theists can easily agree upon. When we examine our religions meticulously, there are details we seem to disagree on, but in the grand scheme of things, they're unimportant. Most of the theists here believe, in one way or another, that all paths lead to God. Personally, I couldn't care less which religion you ascribe yourself to, so long as you believe in God (which is the most important and unifying factor there is).

Christians can believe, if they want to, that Jesus is the only path to salvation. As a Muslim, I will stick to my beliefs that Jesus was a great prophet of God, but nothing more. There is certainly some common ground here, which is all that matters to me.

Although I will add, greenberg, that theist vs. theist discussions here occur quite frequently, much to my dismay. Most, if not all, of these disagreements are the result of self-described Christians and Jews attacking Islamic ideals and scriptures. Of course, these types of people are few and far between; in reality, Christians, Muslims, and Jews get along very well, especially in the Middle East (excluding Israel, of course). As a Turk, I know of large Christian and Jewish communities in Turkey, and my family has very close friends with people from these communities. Such relationships truly aren't impeded by minor religious differences, because there are enough similarities and mutual understandings to constitute respect for one another. When it comes to theists/atheists, though, there is practically no respect, understanding, or similarities, which is why the two naturally argue more fervently, and more frequently. I don't have any friends who are atheists, mainly because there is no common ground between us. I find my customs, ideals, beliefs, and outlooks are polar opposites to that of atheists, meaning no viable friendship could ever form.


Kadark

 

[Syzygys]

Kadark, I noticed you use the singular version for God. I as a Hindi believe in gods and no salvation is playing role in the reincarnation cycle.

So I would say mine and your religions are quite DIFFERENT and of course mine is the true one.

So in the future would you mind cutting that bullcrap of " all religion are the same eventually"? THANKS!!

 

[(Q)]

I don't have any friends who are atheists, mainly because there is no common ground between us. I find my customs, ideals, beliefs, and outlooks are polar opposites to that of atheists, meaning no viable friendship could ever form.

There's the Islam we've come to respect and adore, and criticize.

We poor infidels will just have to get on with life not having been enlightened by your presence and your beliefs.

 

[nietzschefan]

Prolly cause they are still out numbered.(Compared to atheist/agnostics.)

 

[lightgigantic]

How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

Each theist or groups of theists presumes they have the right understanding of God - how come they don't take on other theists who think differently?

How come theists engage in discussion mostly only with atheists and agnostics, but rarely with other theists?

It is almost as if the theist vs. theist confrontations are avoided.

Frankly, the discussions theists have with atheists and agnostics are merely cosmetical in comparison to the weighty issues to be discussed between theists of different denominations.
Atheists and agnostics are easy targets, it's easy to show where or how they are -supposedly or not- wrong.


What I would like to see, for example, is that the Christians and the Vaishnavas and the Muslims and the Jews get into an in-depth discussion on whether Jesus is the only path to salvation or not.

as simon indicated, any such thread gets weighed down by atheistic assaults so the discussion reverts back to primary issues of qualities of god, corporeal existence and our relationship with both, the discipline of self control as a prerequisite for enetring the understanding of these things etc etc. So soon any discussion comes back to the FSM etc etc

Having three atheistic Mods for the subforum also contributes, albeit somewhat indirectly

 

[greenberg]

as simon indicated, any such thread gets weighed down by atheistic assaults so the discussion reverts back to primary issues of qualities of god, corporeal existence and our relationship with both, the discipline of self control as a prerequisite for enetring the understanding of these things etc etc. So soon any discussion comes back to the FSM etc etc

Having three atheistic Mods for the subforum also contributes, albeit somewhat indirectly

Why do theists address those atheistic assaults? Is discussion with atheists more important than discussion with theists?

But eventually, it is us, the undecided, who are at a loss in this situation.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why do theists address those atheistic assaults? Is discussion with atheists more important than discussion with theists?

But eventually, it is us, the undecided, who are at a loss in this situation.

I guess being attentive to the real need with a variety of members is difficult in a medium like the net, bereft of non-verbal signifiers etc

 

[Simon Anders]

Why do theists address those atheistic assaults? Is discussion with atheists more important than discussion with theists?

But eventually, it is us, the undecided, who are at a loss in this situation.

From my own perspective it feels like apples and oranges to some degree with other theists. I have disagreed with lightgigantic because our beliefs are different. On the other hand I wouldn't go so far as to say he is wrong. I sometimes think that the important thing is for people to find that system that feels correct and is also rationally satisfying for them. I am not saying that there are no objective correlates (or that there are, for that matter). There is a practical motivation in this - if you are not attracted to an approach proselytizing feels to me near damaging for both ends of the proselyzing moment.

I truly do think it is best if people move in the directions they are drawn to. I think the moments I hop in to a discussion with another theist is when I want to press back on what has been presented as 'spirituality' rather than one form.

Or if adstar, for example, set off memories of the Inquisition. However much he abhors the Catholic church, I can hear the gear cranking on the rack when he writes.

An undecided's post----theists respond in parallel, for the most part.
That seems like a good architecture for threads of that kind.

One thread of lightgigantic's that I appreciated very much was, in my read, essentially a challenge to non-theists to approach religion empirically. Religions tend to all make claims that are based on practices leading to results. Most of them also make it clear that one cannot sit on the outside (ha, ha) and understand something. While aimed, perhaps, primarily at atheists, it seems like a good model in general.

Jews and Moslems and Christians could have a discussion of the role of Jesus in salvation, but I am not sure what a non-(all the above) would get out of it.

 

[phlogistician]

The belief in God is the central message, which all theists can easily agree upon.

You think you all worship the same God?

Impossible, the vengeful, warring God of the Old Testament is certainly not the God of love that Jesus describes, so Jews and Christians certainly have different Gods. I don't think Allah is the same as the Christian God either, Allah never had a son, but 'God' v2.0 allegedly did, so 'Allah' might be the same spiteful shit that Jews worship (God v1.0), but certainly not the fella that Mr H. Christ rattled on about.

 

[phlogistician]

I sometimes think that the important thing is for people to find that system that feels correct and is also rationally satisfying for them.

That would be atheism then. It is the only rational option.

 

[Simon Anders]

That would be atheism then. It is the only rational option.

I would certainly include atheism in the set of options that it best to let people choose rather than seeing them as targets for conversion - in fact I consider striving to convert unpleasant behavior.

 

[Adstar]

How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

Because sooner rather than later during a discussion the mods in charge delete the threat using the anti-preaching excuse. There have been attempts to engage in such discussions but they are suppressed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Because sooner rather than later during a discussion the mods in charge delete the threat using the anti-preaching excuse. There have been attempts to engage in such discussions but they are suppressed.

*************
M*W: If your point was valid and expressed the truth, you would not need to reference bible quotations. If the bible were true, there would be plenty of contemporary evidence supporting it, but there's none to be found. That's like referencing Mark Twain with Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.

 

[Kadark]

There's the Islam we've come to respect and adore, and criticize.

We poor infidels will just have to get on with life not having been enlightened by your presence and your beliefs.

Awww, that's very sweet, (Q)! Are you upset because you wanted to be my friend?

You think you all worship the same God?

Impossible, the vengeful, warring God of the Old Testament is certainly not the God of love that Jesus describes, so Jews and Christians certainly have different Gods. I don't think Allah is the same as the Christian God either, Allah never had a son, but 'God' v2.0 allegedly did, so 'Allah' might be the same spiteful shit that Jews worship (God v1.0), but certainly not the fella that Mr H. Christ rattled on about.

Who are you trying to fool? Allah is the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alike. Any differences there may be are due solely to the past men who have changed the words of divine scriptures. All educated Jews, Christians, and Muslims will tell you that the God we worship is the same: he is One, with no partners, having neither a beginning nor an end. There may be disagreements about the role of Jesus and Muhammad, but there is no argument about God. It isn't for an atheist to tell us whether we worship the same God or not. There is only one God, and all monotheistic religions following Abraham worship Him alone. To say there is a "Jewish God", "Old Testament God", or "Islamic God" is silly.


Kadark

 

[Cyperium]

How come there are barely any theist vs. theist discussions here?

Each theist or groups of theists presumes they have the right understanding of God - how come they don't take on other theists who think differently?

How come theists engage in discussion mostly only with atheists and agnostics, but rarely with other theists?

It is almost as if the theist vs. theist confrontations are avoided.

Frankly, the discussions theists have with atheists and agnostics are merely cosmetical in comparison to the weighty issues to be discussed between theists of different denominations.
Atheists and agnostics are easy targets, it's easy to show where or how they are -supposedly or not- wrong.


What I would like to see, for example, is that the Christians and the Vaishnavas and the Muslims and the Jews get into an in-depth discussion on whether Jesus is the only path to salvation or not.

Discussion of that kind would be best if not disturbed by atheists or agnostics I think.

 

[greenberg]

Jews and Moslems and Christians could have a discussion of the role of Jesus in salvation, but I am not sure what a non-(all the above) would get out of it.

I think it would be easier to leave behind the whole problem of Jesus being the only path to salvation, once those ever so "moral" and "good" theists would get into a fist fight with spitting and cursing - and thus showing that they aren't really worth putting one's faith into - even though at other times, they more or less directly demand just that.

In psychology, the standard way to resolve a double bind is to put the whole thing into perspective, look at the context in which it appears, and then address the context.
What better context to dismiss elitist religious claims (that are often double binds) than to get a bunch of those religionists fighting over their tenets like old broads? And besides, in such a fight, they would have to show what they are really made of, and how far they are willing to stay true to their professed religion.

 

[James R]

I think that as soon as theists start talking to each other, they almost always find that their ideas of what god is, or what god does, are different from each other.

To atheists, some theists will claim that all religions really worship the same god, but this is quickly revealed as a lie as soon as theists of different religions start discussing their conceptions of god with each other.

The bloodiest wars are religious wars, fought on the basis of "my god is bigger than your god".