How can unbelievers come to believe in God?

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

That's about as internalized as it gets. But then, I've always felt that the legalistic fundamentalists missed the point.
 
Are there things that you once believed to be true, but now don't believe to be true anymore?

Yes.

IOW, if you believe that all your beliefs are under continual scrutiny and can be changed, how can you at any one point be sure that you have beliefs that are correct, in correspondence with actual reality?

I wouldn't position my beliefs as being under continual scrutiny. I do other things... like eat and sleep. The beliefs I have that have been validated by reality are ones that I know are correct. As an example, right now I believe I am typing a message. As I can directly observe the reality of this, I know that my belief is correct. Some of my belief's may not be correct and other times I don't have a belief but rather an "I don't know" marker.

If anything that you now believe to be in correspondence with actual reality, is subject to change, how can you have any certainty?

The only time it would be subject to change is if actual reality disagreed with my belief... which is fine as that can happen. Other beliefs are validated by reality. The latter is where certainty comes from and the rest is my perception of their possible correspondence. It works just fine for me.
 
I never said concepts of innate good and evil are not Christian, I said innate ethics and morals are not. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Commandments? Would be the point of moral teachings if it were considered inherent?

Virtue ethics don't typically assert that morality is innate. If that were so, then why don't people infallibly behave ethically from birth? Instead, virtue ethics typically teach that virtues need to be taught. Plato's 'Republic' imagines a rather totalitarian system of education that he hoped would successfully instill moral and intellectual virtues in Athenians. Maybe it really would have, since a similar system had actually worked, for a time at least, in instilling military virtues in Spartans.

The point with virtue ethics is that ethical behavior isn't just a question of conformng one's outward behavior to some set of rules. It's a matter of reforming one's inner motivations so that one naturally and effortlessly behaves ethically (or intellectually, or as a Spartan).

I'm saying that at least part of Jesus' message (much of the ethical part) was an attempt to reform the Hebrews' ancestral Semitic-style legalism into a new and more psychologized form. His message was less about what people physically did than about what motivated them internally to do those things.

Plato, Aristotle and many other Greek philosophers had already been writing about ethical and intellectual virtues for centuries. The Buddha had taught a distinct form of virtue ethics in India some 500 years earlier. So it was already in the air. The old-style Hebrew tribal legalism was already starting to look kind of anachronistic in the then-modern Hellenistic world.

But Jesus couldn't just denounce the more than 500 year old traditional law, since it had become foundational to who and what the Jews were. So he "fulfilled" it, by addressing the inner motives of external action. The letter of the law was there to guide the behavior of individuals whose inner motivations hadn't yet been reformed. And as Paul later argued, strict adherence to the letter of the law was no longer even necessary for those who had internalized the law's spirit.

There's no suggestion that the spirit of the law is already innate in people, and many suggestions that it isn't. People's lives of sin are evidence it isn't. The Hebrews' inability to conform to God's old law is evidence that it isn't. In Paul's scheme, the law condemns those who try to follow it, by showing them how their hearts just aren't in it. The reformation of people's inner motivations is part of what Jesus supposedly brought. It's supposed to be a gift from God that needs to be downloaded and installed. That's what much of the incessant Christian talk about "the spirit" and "faith" and "God's grace" boils down to, in the ethical sphere at least. It's what lies at the center of Luther's preaching about the priority of faith over works.

But as he says, he's fulfilling the existing law. He doesn't challenge the law itself, he only seeks to give people motivation for following it. This is not the same as an ethical discussion.

Sure it is. And remember that for Paul, once one's motives are reformed, strict adherence to the letter of the law is no longer necessary. Paul felt entirely free to violate the dietary laws, for example. Today, and throughout their history, Christians have never adhered to the Jewish law.

(Actually, the early Jerusalem church may have, and some small Jewish-Christian sects continued to follow the Jewish law for several centuries, but the Christianity that survived isn't descended from them and they're largely of historical interest today.)

Never accused them of not being interested in ethics. I simply said that there is no true discussion of what is right and wrong, but compulsion to accept what has already been deemed so from on high.

But if Christians are no longer bound by or following the minute details of the letter of the Jewish law, then they are left in a position where they have to make ethical decisions for themselves in real-life ethical situations, hopfully in such a way that their behavior conforms to the Christian virtues.
 
Virtue ethics don't typically assert that morality is innate. If that were so, then why don't people infallibly behave ethically from birth? Instead, virtue ethics typically teach that virtues need to be taught. Plato's 'Republic' imagines a rather totalitarian system of education that he hoped would successfully instill moral and intellectual virtues in Athenians. Maybe it really would have, since a similar system had actually worked, for a time at least, in instilling military virtues in Spartans.

The point with virtue ethics is that ethical behavior isn't just a question of conformng one's outward behavior to some set of rules. It's a matter of reforming one's inner motivations so that one naturally and effortlessly behaves ethically (or intellectually, or as a Spartan).

I'm saying that at least part of Jesus' message (much of the ethical part) was an attempt to reform the Hebrews' ancestral Semitic-style legalism into a new and more psychologized form. His message was less about what people physically did than about what motivated them internally to do those things.

Plato, Aristotle and many other Greek philosophers had already been writing about ethical and intellectual virtues for centuries. The Buddha had taught a distinct form of virtue ethics in India some 500 years earlier. So it was already in the air. The old-style Hebrew tribal legalism was already starting to look kind of anachronistic in the then-modern Hellenistic world.

But Jesus couldn't just denounce the more than 500 year old traditional law, since it had become foundational to who and what the Jews were. So he "fulfilled" it, by addressing the inner motives of external action. The letter of the law was there to guide the behavior of individuals whose inner motivations hadn't yet been reformed. And as Paul later argued, strict adherence to the letter of the law was no longer even necessary for those who had internalized the law's spirit.

There's no suggestion that the spirit of the law is already innate in people, and many suggestions that it isn't. People's lives of sin are evidence it isn't. The Hebrews' inability to conform to God's old law is evidence that it isn't. In Paul's scheme, the law condemns those who try to follow it, by showing them how their hearts just aren't in it. The reformation of people's inner motivations is part of what Jesus supposedly brought. It's supposed to be a gift from God that needs to be downloaded and installed. That's what much of the incessant Christian talk about "the spirit" and "faith" and "God's grace" boils down to, in the ethical sphere at least. It's what lies at the center of Luther's preaching about the priority of faith over works.

"Make a tree good and and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him." Jesus, Matthew 12:33-35​

That contradicts your assertion that there is no suggestion that morality or goodness is innate. Now, granted, if we're talking about the Bible, you'll find passages that contradict this message as well, but the point is simply to show that the idea is in there.

You raise some good points about the internalization of ethical law and morality by Jesus, but this gets no closer to a discussion of what is right and wrong than anything you've previously said. There is still an authority dictating to the masses, which I believe to be the crux of DaveC's argument. Non-theists have no prophet to tell them the how and why of ethical law, nor one to emphasize one way over the other. The non-theist must make this distinction on their own, as there is no inherent authority to direct them.


Sure it is. And remember that for Paul, once one's motives are reformed, strict adherence to the letter of the law is no longer necessary. Paul felt entirely free to violate the dietary laws, for example. Today, and throughout their history, Christians have never adhered to the Jewish law.

(Actually, the early Jerusalem church may have, and some small Jewish-Christian sects continued to follow the Jewish law for several centuries, but the Christianity that survived isn't descended from them and they're largely of historical interest today.)

But this is not the same thing as having a discussion on ethical values or morality. It's an authority figure disseminating what is moral and what isn't to the masses.


But if Christians are no longer bound by or following the minute details of the letter of the Jewish law, then they are left in a position where they have to make ethical decisions for themselves in real-life ethical situations, hopfully in such a way that their behavior conforms to the Christian virtues.

No, not true. They've simply been given different guidelines, not no guidelines at all.
 
Crunchy just directed my attention to this. It's interesting, so I'll reply to it too.

Are there things that you once believed to be true, but now don't believe to be true anymore?

Yes.

IOW, if you believe that all your beliefs are under continual scrutiny and can be changed, how can you at any one point be sure that you have beliefs that are correct, in correspondence with actual reality?

They are my working assumptions, so to speak. But all of my beliefs are defeasible. If I receive new and better information I might conceivably decide that any of them are wrong.

Basically, it's just the recognition of the possibility of error.

If anything that you now believe to be in correspondence with actual reality, is subject to change, how can you have any certainty?

I never have 100% certainty. I see that as a cognitive ideal that's probably never attained in real life.

In actual practice, my beliefs have different weights. I believe that some of them have very high probabilities of being true, while others are little more than guesses.
 
@wynn --

If anything that you now believe to be in correspondence with actual reality, is subject to change, how can you have any certainty?

Well repeated observation that my beliefs correspond to reality gives me some degree of certainty because the observation is repeated over and over again.

If you mean "how can you have any absolute certainty?" Then the answer is that none of us can have this(we're human, there's always the possibility that we're wrong, however minute that possibility is) and I find absolute certainty to be a wholly undesirable trait anyways. It completely blocks any hope of learning anything new.
 
Crunchy just directed my attention to this. It's interesting, so I'll reply to it too.

Yes.

They are my working assumptions, so to speak. But all of my beliefs are defeasible. If I receive new and better information I might conceivably decide that any of them are wrong.

Basically, it's just the recognition of the possibility of error.

I never have 100% certainty. I see that as a cognitive ideal that's probably never attained in real life.

In actual practice, my beliefs have different weights. I believe that some of them have very high probabilities of being true, while others are little more than guesses.

What is pertinent about this issue of certainty of one's beliefs is that some people, even though they claim not to possess full certainty and even though they admit to be subject to delusion, nevertheless see themselves fit to attack others for presumably "delusional beliefs" and nevertheless insist that others should change their ways.

As if they were to say -
"I am not 100% certain that my beliefs correspond to reality, and, yes, I admit to be subject to delusion -- but I nevertheless think that everyone should think, feel, speak and act as I do. And for all practical intents and purposes, I am right, and everyone who doesn't think, feel, speak and act as I do, is wrong / bad / delusional."
 
If a Christian claims to get their values from within, then they're Christians in name only. What is a Christian that does not subscribe to Christian tenets?

This is so if viewed from a particular external, non-Christian perspective that assumes religiousness is necessarily learned / adopted / acquired, and not inherent.


But (at least some) Christians (and others) see no difference between "values from within" and "values given from God."

According to (some) theists, morality, alog with religiousness, is innate, and it is so because God made it so.


You raise some good points about the internalization of ethical law and morality by Jesus, but this gets no closer to a discussion of what is right and wrong than anything you've previously said. There is still an authority dictating to the masses, which I believe to be the crux of DaveC's argument.

It is is not clear that this is actually how people come to be religious.

What you sketch out above is certainly a frequent religiological / anthropological / culturological assumption about how it comes that people become religious.

But it is an assumption that is difficult to support (it is not possible to test it), and religious people themselves do not subscribe to it.



Non-theists have no prophet to tell them the how and why of ethical law, nor one to emphasize one way over the other. The non-theist must make this distinction on their own, as there is no inherent authority to direct them.

But this is not the same thing as having a discussion on ethical values or morality. It's an authority figure disseminating what is moral and what isn't to the masses.

That seems to assume that religious people first blindly accept someone or something as an authority, and then just go along without questioning.

On the whole, I think that atheists tend to operate out of grossly misleading assumptions about how a person becomes religious - theistic.
Those atheists take for granted that God doesn't exist, and that therefore, a religiological / anthropological / culturological explanation of a how a person becomes religious, suffices completely.
 
What is pertinent about this issue of certainty of one's beliefs is that some people, even though they claim not to possess full certainty and even though they admit to be subject to delusion, nevertheless see themselves fit to attack others for presumably "delusional beliefs" and nevertheless insist that others should change their ways.

It happens every day on Sciforums. Threads here are often dominated more by attitude than by ideas.

As if they were to say -
"I am not 100% certain that my beliefs correspond to reality, and, yes, I admit to be subject to delusion -- but I nevertheless think that everyone should think, feel, speak and act as I do. And for all practical intents and purposes, I am right, and everyone who doesn't think, feel, speak and act as I do, is wrong / bad / delusional."

In my own case, I'm rarely if ever 100% convinced that my own views are totally correct. They can always be tuned up and improved, and there's probably always going to be at least a small possibility that I'm just totally wrong.

But oftentimes I'm reasonably confident that I'm on the right track. What's more, I'm occasionally convinced that my ideas are a lot closer to the truth than somebody else's. Despite my not being 100% certain about my own ideas, I'm still fully capable of believing that other people are wrong.

Whether I say so, and how aggressively I confront somebody, is a function of a whole lot of variables -- such as how arrogant and abusive they are towards others (I enjoy confronting bullies), whether I think that their perceived error is dangerous somehow ("creation-science" proponents for example), and whether I think that the underlying philosophical issues are interesting and might be fun and enlightening to discuss.
 
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Or they could smoke crack and then go into a rehabilitation center. Crack addicts fresh out of the rehab center always believe in him.
 
@Chipz --

That's because most rehab centers are little more than fronts for christianity, with some of the messages toned down a bit while others(such as requiring a higher power to fix your life) are played up.
 
But (at least some) Christians (and others) see no difference between "values from within" and "values given from God."

According to (some) theists, morality, alog with religiousness, is innate, and it is so because God made it so.

I think that's true. The various permutations of 'natural law' theory certainly argue that all people come equipped with consciences, and/or with the rational ability to deduce morally correct courses of action from supposedly self-evident premises about human flourishing or whatnot.

Even atheists typically acknowledge many of these ideas. The difference is that while the theists trace it back to God, the atheists trace it to social instinct or to something like that.

The thing is, there's been this atheist assertion that religious ethics is nothing more simple rote adherence to a set of rules that believers accept as divinely revealed. Or at best, it's something like religious jurisprudence, the application of divine law in new situations. Hence the assertion that religious ethics has nothing to discuss and effectively doesn't even exist.

But there's the annoying fact that Christianity doesn't have a religious law. There simply has never been any authoritative listing of Christian moral rules, applicable to every circumstance. Nor is there a tradition of Christian moral jurisprudence interpreting it. Instead, Christians always seem to be talking about the need for "faith" and about their "holy spirit". Something else is happening.

The distinction that I've been making in this thread compares external rule-following on one hand, against the reformation of one's heart, of one's internal motivations on the other. It's about not merely possessing a conscience, whether natural or God-given, but about having the ability and the internal resources to actually heed it, and not simply be swept away by one's own personal desires.

Looking at things that way, Christian ethics, atheist naturalistic ethics, and traditions like Buddhist ethics have a lot more in common than one might initially suppose. (It's not surprising, since they are all addressing real life.) Not only does religious ethics exist, not only does it have lots of interesting things to discuss, I'm suggesting that it might actually reward atheists if they paid some attention to it and didn't just dismiss it with a knee-jerk.
 
This is so if viewed from a particular external, non-Christian perspective that assumes religiousness is necessarily learned / adopted / acquired, and not inherent.

Well we have some evidence to say that it is, such as how your religion so greatly depends on where you live, or where you were raised. Also, the positive correlation between higher education and agnosticism/atheism would imply that religion is a condition of ignorance. The fact that almost every religion attempts to explain how life began, as well as how it will end, speaks to that point.

But (at least some) Christians (and others) see no difference between "values from within" and "values given from God."

According to (some) theists, morality, alog with religiousness, is innate, and it is so because God made it so.

Well, I believe morality is innate as well, but I don't think moral issues are innate. For example, I can watch a woman getting beaten by two others and feel empathy. This empathy causes me to (hopefully) step in and prevent any further damage from being done.

However, if I'm lead to believe the woman is a witch who will kill my family if she is not stopped, I will tend to have a different reaction to the scene, because empathy is no longer the relevant instinct, but rather the desire to protect my family. This instinct could cause me to allow the beatings to occur, or even cause me to help the attackers. Perhaps if I'm a very empathetic person, I might seek a different solution--banishment for the witch, for example--but in the end what is "truly good" is unknown to me because of my ignorance.

It is is not clear that this is actually how people come to be religious.

What you sketch out above is certainly a frequent religiological / anthropological / culturological assumption about how it comes that people become religious.

This is interesting, because I did not make any claim as to how people become religious in that post. I was discussing the differences between theists and non-theists as it pertains to their morality. Completely different subject. I'm curious, what about my post lead you to write this?

But it is an assumption that is difficult to support (it is not possible to test it), and religious people themselves do not subscribe to it.

Well, again, I don't know where you got that I was making a claim about how religious people come to be religious. That wasn't what we were talking about. I do that in this post, but not before.

But anyway, citing that religious people do not subscribe to a certain theory is irrelevant. They do not subscribe to the idea that there is no god, either. Clearly what they subscribe to has no bearing on the conversation.

That seems to assume that religious people first blindly accept someone or something as an authority, and then just go along without questioning.

Many do accept a religious authority without question. And those who don't tend to find themselves on the outside looking in. The Abrahamic texts specifically condemn questioning of authority, and leave no room for doubters in the promised afterlife.

Consider how many people believe the world is thousands of years old, rather than billions. Consider how many people believe there will be 72 virgins waiting for them if they give their life to jihad. No inquiry will bring you to these conclusions.

On the whole, I think that atheists tend to operate out of grossly misleading assumptions about how a person becomes religious - theistic.
Those atheists take for granted that God doesn't exist, and that therefore, a religiological / anthropological / culturological explanation of a how a person becomes religious, suffices completely.

You've got it completely backwards. Atheists come to the conclusion that the gods of human religion are false because of inquiry. Theists are, by and large, born into their faiths, and were indoctrinated before they were old enough to know better. They are the ones who take their reality for granted, not atheists.
 
How do you assess whether a belief of yours is "validated by reality"??

Observation would be a good method. For example, if I believe that fire will burn wood and observe a forest fire burning trees then reality has validated my belief. But seriously, does this seem like such an alien concept to you (as your question implies)?
 
Observation would be a good method. For example, if I believe that fire will burn wood and observe a forest fire burning trees then reality has validated my belief. But seriously, does this seem like such an alien concept to you (as your question implies)?

As long as we talk, for practical intents and purposes, about burning wood and trees, it's all well and good.

But by this kind of reasoning, how does reality validate or invalidate your beliefs about God?

Especially when you are operating out of definitions of "God" that were never held by anyone who claimed to believe in God.
 
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