How can unbelievers come to believe in God?

[wynn]

The Christians who have studied the philosophy of their religion insist that God does not want to give them incontrovertible evidence of his existence. He wants them to believe out of faith, not reason.

Yes, I have heard this one too. "God does not give us evidence, because that would mean we don't need to have faith. But the Bible said we must have faith."
It seems that they were trying to retrospectively (retroactively?) trying to justify having faith.

 

[Adstar]

What would have to happen to make him/her believe in God?
The only reason people don't believe in God is that they have no reason to believe in God.
So how do theists expect them to find faith?

Read the Bible and be open to the possibility that God exists.

I believe the Message of the Bible is very powerful in convincing some people that God exists.

If someone does go down this path i suggest they start by reading the New Testament. and then read the Old Testament.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The Christians who have studied the philosophy of their religion insist that God does not want to give them incontrovertible evidence of his existence.

Incontrovertible evidence they can show another person.

But one can be shown personally, Incontrovertible evidence from God.

He wants them to believe out of faith, not reason.

No. It's not a case of absolute no reason and 100% faith. It is a Mix. There are reasons to believe God exists. But they are not incontrovertible others can bring forth counter reasons not to believe.

Believe is never 100% reason, With God there is always a need for Faith because no one knows God fully.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Rhaedas]

Read the Bible and be open to the possibility that God exists.

I believe the Message of the Bible is very powerful in convincing some people that God exists.

If someone does go down this path i suggest they start by reading the New Testament. and then read the Old Testament.

The common misconception that non-believers must not have read, or even heard of the bible.

There are many who lost their faith only after sitting down and fully reading the bible. Of course the usual excuse is that they didn't read it with the spirit of god in them or something along those lines.

Incontrovertible evidence they can show another person.

But one can be shown personally, Incontrovertible evidence from God.

Sounds familiar. Can't show you, but you'll know it when you see it. So really it's up to god whether anyone sees this sign. So the person who was born with a mind that's rational who sees no reason or need to believe, as well as the person who wants to believe throughout their life, searching every day for that confirmation, they're both out of luck unless god gives them something to work with.

I'll say again...an all powerful god knows what he's given each person to prevent faith in believing, as well as what it would take to give each person that faith. So it's really in his court, if he wants that worship. He's the god, after all.

 

[Adstar]

The common misconception that non-believers must not have read, or even heard of the bible.

There are many who lost their faith only after sitting down and fully reading the bible. Of course the usual excuse is that they didn't read it with the spirit of god in them or something along those lines.

Well i find it is normaly a case of simple disagreement with what God has said and done.

There may be very little input from the Holy Spirit to a person who refuses to take the first step. Just enough for the initial conviction to be resisted.

Sounds familiar. Can't show you, but you'll know it when you see it. So really it's up to god whether anyone sees this sign.

Yes.

So the person who was born with a mind that's rational who sees no reason or need to believe,

Rationalism has nothing to do with it. That’s just a arrogant statement of personal superiority coming from the mouth of an atheist. I see in other threads people reputedly saying that Theists have a superior attitude. The above sentence drips with superior attitude.

as well as the person who wants to believe throughout their life, searching every day for that confirmation, they're both out of luck unless god gives them something to work with.

People can claim they are seeking and wanting to believe, but i find that a lot of people are seeking and wanting to believe in a god that conforms to their wishes, a pet god, someone who snaps to attention and follows their theological orders.

I'll say again...an all powerful god knows what he's given each person to prevent faith in believing, as well as what it would take to give each person that faith. So it's really in his court, if he wants that worship. He's the god, after all.

He will get and is getting that worship. One day you will worship Him too. All will bow down to Him one day, does not matter if you where one who embraced His will or rejected His will.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Rav]

Rationalism has nothing to do with it.

Rationality has everything to do with it because a rational person will critically examine even the most profound personal experience(s). A rational person is compelled to concede that such experiences do not represent "incontrovertible evidence" of anything, since people can become convinced of all kinds of things through such mechanisms. What you and many other theists will likely never admit to yourselves is that ultimately, you believe in God because you want to believe. In an of itself that does not make you wrong, but beyond the basic awareness of self, rationality and certainty can not legitimately coexist.

 

[Lori_7]

Rationality has everything to do with it because a rational person will critically examine even the most profound personal experience(s). A rational person is compelled to concede that such experiences do not represent "incontrovertible evidence" of anything, since people can become convinced of all kinds of things through such mechanisms. What you and many other theists will likely never admit to yourselves is that ultimately, you believe in God because you want to believe. In an of itself that does not make you wrong, but beyond the basic awareness of self, rationality and certainty can not legitimately coexist.

that's absolutely untrue, but you believe that because you want to believe it.

who in their right mind would want to believe in god? and why? knowing god is WAY too consequential and the consequences are WAY too impactive, and all-encompassing. getting to know god is like going through basic training, to get torn down in order to be built up. it's by far the most challenging thing in my life.

you're also assuming in ignorance that i haven't "critically examined" my bevy of spiritual experiences, and i have done exactly that. you don't run a monopoly on critical examination you know.

knowing god is like having someone follow you around 24/7 with a mirror. are you saying that would be desirable for most people? i argue that if it were, a lot more people would know god.

 

[Rav]

that's absolutely untrue, but you believe that because you want to believe it.

who in their right mind would want to believe in god? and why? knowing god is WAY too consequential and the consequences are WAY too impactive, and all-encompassing. getting to know god is like going through basic training, to get torn down in order to be built up. it's by far the most challenging thing in my life.

knowing god is like having someone follow you around 24/7 with a mirror. are you saying that would be desirable for most people? i argue that if it were, a lot more people would know god.

Most theists I know, and have known, see it very differently. Spiritual life is, for them, something that is much more rich and fulfilling than the life they feel they would be living otherwise. I don't doubt that certain aspects of it may be challenging at times (in fact I know as much from experience) but overall they see it as a positive and desirable reality. Then of course there is the often expressed opinion that life would be utterly meaningless and therefore horribly depressing if there wasn't a God or an afterlife.

you're also assuming in ignorance that i haven't "critically examined" my bevy of spiritual experiences, and i have done exactly that. you don't run a monopoly on critical examination you know.

The critical examination is for the purposes of establishing whether or not your personal subjective experiences can legitimately constitute incontrovertible evidence of God's existence. A rational person is compelled to concede that although such experiences may seem very real, they are not necessarily evidence of the existence of anything external to oneself.

I know you will insist that you are certain, and I am sure that you will further insist that your certainty is indeed rational. But if that's the case, then you're not rational the way I am.

 

[Yazata]

What would have to happen to make him/her believe in God?

Billions of people believe in "god" (or in something analogous) and most of them are kind of born into it, I think. They have an innate tendency to think in religious ways and they kind of accept whatever their community's religious ideas happen to be like they accept other aspects of their native culture.

I was raised in an untraditionally traditional and rather multi-cultural home. (My parents were Americans living in Japan who met and married there.) The general attitude was very respectful to religion and kind of universalistic, with the idea that all religions point towards something transcendent beyond themselves, even if none of them are 100% literally true. It was a kind of an aesthetic approach to religion, I guess. (My mother collected Buddhist art.) And like most other people I guess, that early upbringing shaped me for the rest of my life. My views today are very similar to those of my parents.

But no, I don't believe in God.

What would it take to make me believe? Nothing that I know of, short of God reaching into me and miraculously altering me so that I believe unthinkingly. Maybe the Calvinists are right about it all being a gift of divine grace. If so, I haven't received that grace, nor do I want it.

I can't imagine any divine appearance in the heavens that would convert me, no matter how impressive a light-show it was. It's what I think of as the 'Independence Day problem', from that science fiction movie in which giant 15-mile wide flying saucers appear over the Earth's major cities. Impressive as all hell, but just because something is impressive and totally inexplicable, doesn't imply that it's a suitable object of religious worship.

I don't know of any way that a finite human being can ever know for sure that he or she is confronted by an infinite being. Nor am I entirely sure why an infinite being would deserve to be worshipped, even if it was my omnipotent creator. (Except prudence, perhaps, if that's what it takes to avoid being squashed.)

I can't shake the feeling that "worshipping (a) god" totally misses the point, somehow. That's not what this is about.

 

[wynn]

Nor am I entirely sure why an infinite being would deserve to be worshipped, even if it was my omnipotent creator.

One idea is that we realize we are small and dependent and it is simply good manners to acknowledge the source that satisfies our needs.
If we follow the source of each thing, we come to the ultimate source, God.

If you are familiar with Japanese culture, there is the practice of Naikan, and in Buddhism, too, there is a strong emphasis on gratitude.

One element of worshiping God is basically expressing gratitude to God.

 

[Lori_7]

Most theists I know, and have known, see it very differently. Spiritual life is, for them, something that is much more rich and fulfilling than the life they feel they would be living otherwise. I don't doubt that certain aspects of it may be challenging at times (in fact I know as much from experience) but overall they see it as a positive and desirable reality. Then of course there is the often expressed opinion that life would be utterly meaningless and therefore horribly depressing if there wasn't a God or an afterlife.

it is more rich and fulfilling, it's just not easier. usually the greater the challenge, the greater the rewards, but i think you'll have to agree that's not exactly the majority of society's mentality or goal. seems like everyone wants an easy answer, a quick fix, a short term gain. we glorify things like greed, sloth, and lust, and telling lies is mainstream. it's a shame, but true.

The critical examination is for the purposes of establishing whether or not your personal subjective experiences can legitimately constitute incontrovertible evidence of God's existence. A rational person is compelled to concede that although such experiences may seem very real, they are not necessarily evidence of the existence of anything external to oneself.

I know you will insist that you are certain, and I am sure that you will further insist that your certainty is indeed rational. But if that's the case, then you're not rational the way I am.

that's...diplomatic.

i don't know, i guess everyone has a different way of evaluating things. i tend to see everything like it's a math problem or a logic problem myself. but honestly, this particular endeavor was fairly straight-forward and common sense imo.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

The pastor said that since God could do anything he wanted to, he could easily reconstruct their dog right down to the last hair and the last behavior quirk, so that they would be incapable of distinguishing him from the real dog.

Why wouldn't God just resurrect the real dog?
I wouldn't want another dog exactly the same. I would want my real dog.
Sort it out God!

A variation on the dog theme is found at funerals.
The priest always gives the impression that the dead person is in heaven, no matter how big a villain they were. The following never happens:

Father Mulcahy:
This person wiz a tirrible divvel, so he was, and if Dare's anny justice he'll be roasting in the flames of hell.

No, that wouldn't go down too well at all.

 

[aaqucnaona]

What would have to happen to make him/her believe in God?
The only reason people don't believe in God is that they have no reason to believe in God.
So how do theists expect them to find faith?

Thorugh logical fallacies, personal biases and cherrypicked anecdotes, often with shallow unsubstaintal promises and threats and wierd moral appeals to duty and reason.

 

[kx000]

What would have to happen to make him/her believe in God?
The only reason people don't believe in God is that they have no reason to believe in God.
So how do theists expect them to find faith?

I dont, God does. "Save as many as you can and don't return until your done."

 

[-ND-]

Magic tricks.

 

[Felixx89]

I expect you to see the governing force that controls destiny like I see it . Shit F--ck Me anyway . F--ck I wish some one could? So I figure if me rhetoric is clear enough some ones going to get it . I have made a great discovery whether anybody believes it or not it is still true . It is based in onomastics and is part of governing forces that control actions of humans . I know it sounds ridiculous hocus pocus to everyone , but if it is true everyone's going to get in the end , or possible I could be banned and have to find some others to understand . I know that is always a possibility .
To tell you straight up . I don't tell lies . I know my posts have the appearance of being lies . F---cking fate will do that to ya . I think the creating force is playing a joke on Me . If you can see the hidden language like I see it you would change your mind . I encourage people to read my posts until they start to understand . It is hard I know to read past my conceit and I do understand how offensive it is. Can't help that because I am caught up in the dream just as much as anybody

offensive? you are just a plain lunatic according to my believes.

 

[kx000]

Yes, I have heard this one too. "God does not give us evidence, because that would mean we don't need to have faith. But the Bible said we must have faith."
It seems that they were trying to retrospectively (retroactively?) trying to justify having faith.

God is proving the power of faith. Keep in mind the angel of faith, Michael is the archangel who commands God's army, not Jesus. Faith is of utmost importance, the only reason God even NEEDED to create life is as a test of faith. What are you going to do when you are born on earth with no recoglation of your angelic past. When you are living your true colors show. Original sin is lust of knowledge, if God gave us evidence of his existence he would be the greatst sinner of all.

 

[Robittybob1]

Wouldn't a god know what it takes to make a person believe? Certainly an all powerful being could, if they wanted to, do anything convincing enough for anyone. The biblical god did in the past, although looking at his miracles, they could now be explained by natural phenomena seen by ignorant people, or simulated by modern technology.

But certainly he could set up miracles to be unexplainable to us.

That was then but now there is 7 billion humans. The exercise would be enormous, might as well just go straight to Armageddon and get it over and done with. Saves time and effort.

 

[kx000]

I was once surfing through Christian websites (always pays to see what the enemy is up to)

Agreed

and I found one in which a panel of pastors were counseling parents in how to answer their children's questions about religious matters.

Mr. Pastor needs a lesson in sin. Knowingly feeding ones lust is a sin, especialy from a man of understanding.

One lady said that the family dog had just died and the children were consoling themselves with the promise that he'd be waiting for them in heaven.

This is laughable. I hate people who think everything they love is going to Heaven, that dog could have been a real heathen. Have you ever seen All Dogs Go to Heaven? Its bs, but most dogs do, think about traits most dogs share; loyalty, integrity, good parents, and wise.

However, she knew that heaven is for souls and only humans have souls so no other animals could be there, and she wondered how to break the news to the kids, since it would devastate them

.

Wait what??? Ever heard of the 4 beast? LUL, animals have souls what kind of crap is that?

The pastor said that since God could do anything he wanted to, he could easily reconstruct their dog right down to the last hair and the last behavior quirk, so that they would be incapable of distinguishing him from the real dog.

With a snap of a finger... but he will not.

In other words: Lie to 'em, lady. It's the Christian thing to do.

Two strikes for the pastor, original sin, and a lie.

It's generally true that Abrahamic religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Rasta, etc.) specifies that non-human animals have no souls.

This is false. Humans are animals. From the dust you were made, to the dust you will return. This applys to anything on earth.

This is in marked contrast to many other systems. Hinduism, for example, says that if you live an evil life your soul will be reincarnated in some lowly animal like a heartworm and you'll have to work your way back up to humanity by being a really noble heartworm. And your first assignment will be to figure out just exactly how a really noble heartworm should behave--with no brain to do the figuring.

Yea. No. You don't get sent down. You get sent back. The first death is of the faithful, the second death is of the ones who gained faith after the first death. After that if you are left one earth its because you are still being reincarnated meaning you have been found in the book yet. Your punishment for evil is living through the worst parts of revelation.

The Christian model of Heaven leaves a lot of details to the imagination, so the various sects and even individuals have their own accretions--so certainly many of them have simply decided that their faithful dog will be there because he is more "Christian" than they are and to have it otherwise would make God unjust.

Dogs, are generaly good people. I have never met a dog who willingly does evil.

And that's nothing compared to Hell. In the last poll I saw, the majority of American Christians believe in Heaven but only about 25% believe in Hell at all.

I hate conformity. 25% of Christians are worried they are going to Hell.

That's nice to know, I guess. I suppose if they begin to believe in God they have to believe that that same God let this crappy thing happen to them, and it doesn't make for a nice introduction.The Christians who have studied the philosophy of their religion insist that God does not want to give them incontrovertible evidence of his existence. He wants them to believe out of faith, not reason

.

Do you believe God has good reason for only giving us faith, not evidence?

This, in a nutshell, is why I say that religion--at least Christianity--is antiscience and has no place in our academy. Reason is fundamental to science. Anyone who believes that it's proper to believe something of really major importance simply out of unreasoned faith will never be completely trustworthy as a scientist.

My reason for faith, its what I believe. I don't push my faith onto anyone, but I will defend it until my death. Christianity doesn't even have a place in Heaven lulz.

 

[Robittybob1]

it is more rich and fulfilling, it's just not easier. usually the greater the challenge, the greater the rewards, but i think you'll have to agree that's not exactly the majority of society's mentality or goal. seems like everyone wants an easy answer, a quick fix, a short term gain. we glorify things like greed, sloth, and lust, and telling lies is mainstream. it's a shame, but true.

that's...diplomatic.

i don't know, i guess everyone has a different way of evaluating things. i tend to see everything like it's a math problem or a logic problem myself. but honestly, this particular endeavor was fairly straight-forward and common sense imo.

Thank God for Lori_7. Can you read what she writes and not realise you are being conversed by an Angel? So much wisdom and genuine compassion; don't you sense it too?