Homosexulaity and the Bible

[Michael]

I thought this letter added the right note for the issue of homosexuality and the Bible....

haha... great quote

I want to know the response to the questions. Is there any way to pretend to be sincere and one by one have them answered?

 

[Doreen]

haha... great quote

I want to know the response to the questions. Is there any way to pretend to be sincere and one by one have them answered?

Of course. I mean, I do not know the woman in question, but in general one can find people who will explain (away) (apparent?) inconsistencies. Or try to. But the whole....this is a timeless document with absolute, everywhere applicable truths.....is a really hard one for many people to let go of. And there is a good reason. If they let go of this, they then have to take responsibility for sifting through religious texts themselves, trying to determine what they want to keep and what they want to throw out.

Though, as you know, I think non-religious people are like this with their timeless and absolute truths.

 

[Bells]

Regrettably, the answer to this can only be yes. Social education has served to allay this, but we are by no means finished.

I don't know that it's "out of the historical context" either. The Bible's meant to be a lesson for all time etc. Mind you, I've never actually heard any priest lay into Leviticus, or even breath funny on it.

One has to wonder where the top priest's feelings on the matter stem from:

The Pope has said that “saving” humanity from homosexual behaviour is just as important as saving the rainforests, a comment likely to provoke a furious reaction from homosexual groups.

Pope Benedict, who acquired a reputation as a hardline, aggressive, doctrine-enforcing cardinal before he was appointed to the Vatican top job, described behaviour beyond traditional heterosexual relations as “a destruction of God’s work”.

(Source)

The Pope, who is 82, remains firmly opposed to any relaxation of the Church’s traditional stance on homosexuality, contraception or any other area of human sexuality. He has described homosexuality as a “tendency” towards an “intrinsic moral evil”.

(Source)

"(The Church) should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed," the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration.

"The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."

The Catholic Church teaches that while homosexuality is not sinful, homosexual acts are.

It opposes gay marriage and, in October, a leading Vatican official called homosexuality "a deviation, an irregularity, a wound".

The pope said humanity needed to "listen to the language of creation" to understand the intended roles of man and woman.

He compared behaviour beyond traditional heterosexual relations as "a destruction of God's work".

He also defended the Church's right to "speak of human nature as man and woman, and ask that this order of creation be respected".

(Source)

Not to mention that they have already used homosexuals as a scapegoat for the Church's child sex abuse scandals.

So how's that social education going? I take it the social education hasn't reached the upper regions of the religious leadership yet?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Michael,

But, do you think that the Bible itself has shaped your opinion to the point your freewill has been clouded (or even removed)?

The bible just tells it like it is.
The modern media is blatently shaping opinions to the point where freewill is being clouded, or removed.

I meant, do you truly think YOU truly had a real choice in the matter of morality on this one? Or where you programmed to think this way due to the Bible?

Homosexuality from the scriptoral sense is not really a moral issue, it is more
the act itself which is not accepted.
You do not need to be programmed to think homosexuality doesn't sit right.
You do need to be programmed to go from that to accepting it as a normal practice, however.

Why would God want programmed creatures? THAT seems odd to me.

Maybe that is why is mentioned in scriptures, so that we can choose not to
become programmed creatures.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

The bible just tells it like it is.

Yeah, just the way it does for slavery, selling your daughter and all the other out-dated crap. See Doreen's post.

The modern media is blatently shaping opinions to the point where freewill is being clouded, or removed.

Proof?

You do not need to be programmed to think homosexuality doesn't sit right.

Don't you?

You do need to be programmed to go from that to accepting it as a normal practice, however.

That wouldn't be a supposition would it?

Maybe that is why is mentioned in scriptures, so that we can choose not to become programmed creatures.

As if the bible weren't a programming tool...

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

As if the bible weren't a programming tool...

In what way is it a programming tool?

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Dywyddyr,
In what way is it a programming tool?
jan.

I love how you continue to display your abject ignorance*:

programme US, program [ˈprəʊgræm]
n
1. (Performing Arts / Theatre) a written or printed list of the events, performers, etc., in a public performance
2. (Communication Arts / Broadcasting) a performance or series of performances, often presented at a scheduled time, esp on radio or television
3. a specially arranged selection of things to be done what's the programme for this afternoon?
4. a plan, schedule, or procedure
5. (Social Science / Education) a syllabus or curriculum
vb -grammes, -gramming, -grammed US, -grams -graming, -gramed
to design or schedule (something) as a programme

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/programme
to use the first one to come up.
Does the bible not fit the definition "3. a specially arranged selection of things to be done"?
It details modes of behaviour, modes of thought and modes of belief and requires believers to pass on these modes. It is self-replicating system of thought, behaviour and social control.
In short, it's a virus in the computer sense.

* Reading your posts makes me wonder if there's a word for the antithesis of polymath. I have never in my life come across someone so multi-untalented or uneducated. And apparently not only content to be so but proud of it.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.
H. G. Wells.
With a few more like you we'd lose the race altogether.

 

[Tiassa]

Ear-sex, gang rape, and remarriage

the Bible clearly defines that homosexuality is immoral/sin. As a Christian I agree.

Among other things, yes it does. However:

And this is where these kinds of Christians, known collectively as the Religious Right or Fundamentalists, make a mockery of their own Savior. They do this by picking and choosing which lifestyle sins are covered by God's grace and which ones are not. They do this by claiming that God's grace covers their own lifestyle sins but not those of the homosexual. They do this by accepting God's grace in their own lives and then refusing to extend that same grace to those they condemn for having the wrong lifestyle.

And they can do this because they don't believe they have any lifestyle sins of their own. If you ask them about it, they'll say things like, "I used to sleep around but I was forgiven of that sin and now I don't do it anymore." However, ask them if a homosexual can be saved by God's grace, and they will say, "The gay man who does not turn from his homosexuality is choosing to live a lifestyle counter to God's laws and is not, therefore, saved by grace." What they conveniently forget is that 50% of them - those who count themselves among the Religious Right - are divorced, and more than 85% of those are remarried. What that means is, according to the Bible, that nearly 43% of the same people who condemn the gay man for his homosexuality choose to live in a lifestyle of adultery, a sin that ranks equal to homosexuality in God's eyes.

That's right. The very people who condemn one "sinful" lifestyle are practicing another.

(McKinley)​

Just so we're clear, do you, as a Christian:

(A) Support gay marriage?
(B) Denounce heterosexual remarriage by divorced persons?
(C) Neither?​

• • •​

But, I was referring to the Bible. Why have a Bible at all? For most of "Biblical" History there wasn't one. The People of Sodom and Gomorrah would have had to make their own choices without one. As it is, they choose wrong.

We should also bear in mind what, from that story, constitutes a righteous decision: Offering one's own daughters to a mob for gang rape.

• • •​

One has to wonder where the top priest's feelings on the matter stem from

You know, I often ridicule a belief common among Seventh-Day Adventists that the Pope is the Devil. Benedict, though ... well, shit, they might be onto something.

I mean, if I was cynical to the point of conspiracy theory, I might wonder if maybe he didn't protect pedophile priests as part of Church agenda against homosexuals, but that's more than a little far-fetched. It's much more probable that the guy is, simply, evil.

Rainer Hachfeld, March 30, 2010
(via Cagle)​

____________________

Notes:

McKinley, Brian E. "When Christ Was Gay". (n.d.) Elroy.net. May 25, 2010. http://blog.cagle.com/2010/03/30/happy-easter/

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

I love how you continue to display your abject ignorance*:

Why? Because I asked you to clarify something?
Would I be okay (in your eyes) if I just accepted what you told me, as truth?

Does the bible not fit the definition "3. a specially arranged selection of things to be done"?

Every book which requires some kind of methodology has sections like
this. So why single out the bible.

It details modes of behaviour modes of thought and modes of belief and requires believers to pass on these modes.

Examples please.

It is self-replicating system of thought, behaviour and social control.
In short, it's a virus in the computer sense.

Just saying it is isn't enough I'm afraid.
Seeing as you're always on the verge bursting blood-vessels everytime we
converse, I'm going to tread very carefully.
If you're calm and collected please respond, but if you're going to insult me,
like you seem to be doing more and more lately, then please don't.

* Reading your posts makes me wonder if there's a word for the antithesis of polymath. I have never in my life come across someone so multi-untalented or uneducated.

You don't even know me.
How arrogant, and ignorant, you are.

And apparently not only content to be so but proud of it.

The trouble with you is, you do not think you are wrong, ever, when discussing with theists. Take your head out of the sand, and prove me wrong
with this logic, reason, critical thinking, and all the other titles explicits like to asociate their position with. I challenge you.

Humant history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.
H. G. Wells.
With a few more like you we'd lose the race altogether.

Education is a great thing, but when given to a fool, he is no more an intelligent man, than a man who thinks he is strong because he pumps iron.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Why? Because I asked you to clarify something?

Not at all. It's because you needed it clarifying.

Every book which requires some kind of methodology has sections like this. So why single out the bible.

Maybe, just possibly, because the topic of this thread is the bible.

Examples please.

There you go again.
How about the ten commandments?
How about the strictures on what may or may not be eaten?
How about instruction on what may or not be worn?
How about the rules of when and how to worship?
Read Doreen's post (as previously pointed out to you) for examples: you have already been given them, yet, as usual, you ignore completely anything you can't actually reply to and keep calling for the point to made over and over again while persistently ignoring that same point.

Just saying it is isn't enough I'm afraid.

Have you ever actually read the bible?
It shouldn't need saying.

You don't even know me.
How arrogant, and ignorant, you are.

No, but I read your posts. If you are capable of thinking any more clearly than you display in those I'd like to request that you do so in future.

The trouble with you is, you do not think you are wrong, ever, when discussing with theists. Take your head out of the sand, and prove me wrong with this logic, reason, critical thinking, and all the other titles explicits like to asociate their position with. I challenge you.

Jan, as I have repeatedly pointed out there is no pint whatsoever using logic or reasoning with you since you ignore what you can't divert and back track constantly. You do not respond to logic, reason, critical thinking or rationality.

Education is a great thing, but when given to a fool, he is no more an intelligent man, than a man who thinks he is strong because he pumps iron.

Yes... whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I note that you have failed completely to address the points/ questions raised in my post #105.
So I'll ask again:

The bible just tells it like it is.

Yeah, just the way it does for slavery, selling your daughter and all the other out-dated crap. See Doreen's post.

The modern media is blatently shaping opinions to the point where freewill is being clouded, or removed.

Proof?

For example how is YOUR free will being clouded or removed?

You do not need to be programmed to think homosexuality doesn't sit right.

Don't you?

You do need to be programmed to go from that to accepting it as a normal practice, however.

That wouldn't be a supposition would it?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Not at all. It's because you needed it clarifying.

Well it's obviously not a forgone conclusion, otherwise you would have clarified if for me.

Maybe, just possibly, because the topic of this thread is the bible.

So?

There you go again.
How about the ten commandments?

A set of instructions for a particular people at a particular time, in a particular circumstance.

How about the strictures on what may or may not be eaten?

Same as above.

How about instruction on what may or not be worn?

You said it yourself, "instruction".

How about the rules of when and how to worship?

These are all instructions, for a specific people.
Try again.
Giving instruction is not the same as programing.
However there is something called "programmed instruction", but i'm afraid
the definition does not lend support to your claim, because the whole point of the ten commandments was cease sinful activety abruptely (for those particular people, in that place and circumstance).

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861736659/programmed_instruction.html

As usual, you are wrong, which is probably why you're such a grumpy bear.

Read Doreen's post (as previously pointed out to you) for examples: you have already been given them, yet, as usual, you ignore completely anything you can't actually reply to and keep calling for the point to made over and over again while persistently ignoring that same point.

Up till now Doreens has made twelve posts.
Which one should I read?

Have you ever actually read the bible?
It shouldn't need saying.

It's obvious we don't see the bible in the same way, so just chill
and converse, or not if you choose.

Jan, as I have repeatedly pointed out there is no pint whatsoever using logic or reasoning with you since you ignore what you can't divert and back track constantly. You do not respond to logic, reason, critical thinking or rationality.

Cop-out.

Yes... whatever that's supposed to mean.

Did you understand the analogy?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I note that you have failed completely to address the points/ questions raised in my post #105.
So I'll ask again:





For example how is YOUR free will being clouded or removed?

I will get back to you on those.
But please just chill out.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Well it's obviously not a forgone conclusion, otherwise you would have clarified if for me.

The opposite actually: because it's so obvious I thought I had no need to clarify it. You only clarify things when they aren't obvious.

So?

What do you use instead of a brain?
You asked why I singled out the bible, I reply that the bible is the topic of the thread and you can't see the connection?

A set of instructions for a particular people at a particular time, in a particular circumstance.
Same as above.

Yet some of those instructions are still being followed today? Why not all of them?

You said it yourself, "instruction".

And for some reason you don't consider "instruction" to be programming?

These are all instructions, for a specific people.
Try again.

I'm sorry you're wrong, but the bible is STILL being used as a guide today.

Giving instruction is not the same as programing.

Wrong. Programming is instructions.

because the whole point of the ten commandments was cease sinful activety abruptely (for those particular people, in that place and circumstance).

Ah I see. So no one is required to follow any of the ten Commandments today.
Glad we've cleared that up.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861736659/programmed_instruction.html
As usual, you are wrong, which probably why you're such a grumpy bear.

Wrong again. Programmed instruction is a teaching method (as your link clearly states).

Up till now Doreens has made twelve posts.
Which one should I read?

The last one: the one that I directly referred to. )With the comment about "selling your daughter" and "slavery").

Cop-out.

Wrong: you're back to duplicity again.

Did you understand the analogy?

Of course: you're claiming that lifting weights won't improve your strength... And then making specious analogies from that.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

The opposite actually: because it's so obvious I thought I had no need to clarify it. You only clarify things when they aren't obvious.

Then this is not as obvious as you were led to believe.

You asked why I singled out the bible, I reply that the bible is the topic of the thread and you can't see the connection?

You stated that the bible is a programing tool, then you reel off a load
of instructions for some folks to follow, no different than any other book which offers specific life styles. When asked why you single out the bible you refer me to the title which has nothing to do with the bible being a programing tool. And then, you insult me.

Yet some of those instructions are still being followed today? Why not all of them?

Because today is a different time, place, and circumstance.
There are places in the world however, where people still resort to certain
behaviour, and the law in those places have to fit the conscioius nature of these acts.
In short, the law is applicable to the society, not one size fits all.

And for some reason you don't consider "instruction" to be programming?

That being the case, then why pick out the bible.
Isn't everything which requires some kind of methodology, programming?
And isn't everybody who has read any educational book, programmed, by your thinking?

I'm sorry you're wrong, but the bible is STILL being used as a guide today.

Where it's applicable.
Most people don't like the idea of slavery, so why would they want to buy and sell slaves, because at some point in history there were laws which stated you could?
In those times and places the bible refers to, such behaviour was accepted
as normal.

Ah I see. So no one is required to follow any of the ten Commandments today.
Glad we've cleared that up.

Ah! The from one extreme to another tactic. How obvious are you?

Wrong again. Programmed instruction is a teaching method (as your link clearly states).

Yes, "a teaching method", but does not support the claim that the bible
is a programming tool.
And you have shown that what you thought was a forgone conclusion, is nothing of the sort. You are begining to wake up.

The last one: the one that I directly referred to. )With the comment about "selling your daughter" and "slavery").

What about it, as far as I can tell its just a joke.
What is it you wish me to comment on?

Wrong: you're back to duplicity again.

Are you a better human being than me?

Of course: you're claiming that lifting weights won't improve your strength... And then making specious analogies from that.

Specious?
It is very relevant.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Then this is not as obvious as you were led to believe.

You mean it's not as obvious to you. But you were always slow on the uptake.

When asked why you single out the bible you refer me to the title which has nothing to do with the bible

You asked why I singled out the bible: the thread (as indicated by the title) is about the bible. Hence the bible is what I discuss.

Because today is a different time, place, and circumstance.
There are places in the world however, where people still resort to certain behaviour, and the law in those places have to fit the conscioius nature of these acts.
In short, the law is applicable to the society, not one size fits all.

So there's absolutely no need to follow the ten commandments?
And you're ignoring the fact that the bible is taken as a guide to how to behave by many people (even if they ignore certain parts on whim).

That being the case, then why pick out the bible.

Because this particular thread is about that particular book.
Which part of this do you not understand?
And YOU are the one that raised the question of programming, in the same sentence that you mentioned scripture.

Where it's applicable.
Most people don't like the idea of slavery, so why would they want to buy and sell slaves, because at some point in history there were laws which stated you could?
In those times and places the bible refers to, such behaviour was accepted as normal.

Yet you claim that the bible should be adhered to with regard to homosexuality.
Why should that part be taken notice of and not others?

Ah! The from one extreme to another tactic. How obvious are you?

Correction: by YOUR WORDS "(for those particular people, in that place and circumstance)".

Yes, "a teaching method", but does not support the claim that the bible is a programming tool.

A programme is a set of instructions to be followed. The bible gives instructions to be followed. Therefore it's a programme.

What about it, as far as I can tell its just a joke.
What is it you wish me to comment on?

The bible tells you it's lawful to sell your daughter. Why is that not in force today yet the ten commandments are?

Specious?
It is very relevant.

It's relevant that you're wrong about muscles, strength and weight lifting?

And you have STILL to reply to my questions.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

You mean it's not as obvious to you. But you were always slow on the uptake.

It's not obvious to me, because I don't accept cliches as truth, because
it happens to suit the current trend. I kinda grew out of that.

You asked why I singled out the bible: the thread (as indicated by the title) is about the bible. Hence the bible is what I discuss.

Homosexuality is in the title, are their activeties programmed?

So there's absolutely no need to follow the ten commandments?

Some people don't have to "follow" it, their consciousness is such that they
adhere to those principles because they are basically good people.
Usually instruction apply to those who need them.

And you're ignoring the fact that the bible is taken as a guide to how to behave by many people (even if they ignore certain parts on whim).

"Taken as a guide" does not mean they are programmed, or that it is a
programming tool. You've yet to explain why it is a "programming tool".

Yet you claim that the bible should be adhered to with regard to homosexuality.
Why should that part be taken notice of and not others?

Where is this claim?

A programme is a set of instructions to be followed. The bible gives instructions to be followed. Therefore it's a programme.

Then there's no need to single out the bible, as everything ever written, which contains information, on how to do something, or how to be in order to do something, renders any who read and follow it, programmed.
That includes yourself.

The bible tells you it's lawful to sell your daughter. Why is that not in force today yet the ten commandments are?

Because at that time, it was lawfull, just like it was lawful to own people as slaves a few hundred years ago.
Despite peoples opposition to it, it did not get abolished instantly.
Laws had to be put in place, but eventually it became abolished.

Originally Posted by Jan

The modern media is blatently shaping opinions to the point where freewill is being clouded, or removed.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Proof?

Because you are not allowed to express your opinion of homo acts, or same
sex[so-called] marriage, if it is deemed negative (in the eye of the media). If you are a celebrity, you lose your status, which sends a message to anyone who may wish to express their opinion. Eventually people conform.

You do not need to be programmed to think homosexuality doesn't sit right.

Don't you?

No you don't.

You do need to be programmed to go from that to accepting it as a normal practice, however.

That wouldn't be a supposition would it?

It may well be at that, it may well be

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

It's not obvious to me, because I don't accept cliches as truth, because it happens to suit the current trend. I kinda grew out of that.

Strawman.

Homosexuality is in the title, are their activeties programmed?

You brought up the bible and programming together.

Some people don't have to "follow" it, their consciousness is such that they adhere to those principles because they are basically good people.
Usually instruction apply to those who need them.

So you're saying you DO follow those rules?

"Taken as a guide" does not mean they are programmed, or that it is a programming tool. You've yet to explain why it is a "programming tool".

I have already explained that: re-read my posts.

Where is this claim?

Originally Posted by Jan Ardena
The bible just tells it like it is.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2549508&postcount=104

Then there's no need to single out the bible, as everything ever written, which contains information, on how to do something, or how to be in order to do something, renders any who read and follow it, programmed.

Then you're betraying your ignorance of what "programming" is. And, one more time, the topic is the bible and YOU were the one that raised the issue of programming and scripture.

Because at that time, it was lawfull, just like it was lawful to own people as slaves a few hundred years ago.
Despite peoples opposition to it, it did not get abolished instantly.
Laws had to be put in place, but eventually it became abolished.

And why did it become unlawful?
Was the bible incorrect on the morality?

Because you are not allowed to express your opinion of homo acts, or same sex[so-called] marriage, if it is deemed negative (in the eye of the media). If you are a celebrity, you lose your status, which sends a message to anyone who may wish to express their opinion. Eventually people conform.

Yet people DO express negative opinions... And many keep doing it while remaining popular and in the public eye.

No you don't.

I'm supposed to just take your word for it?

 

[Tiassa]

Scrutiny of fact, and other notes

Because you are not allowed to express your opinion of homo acts, or same
sex[so-called] marriage, if it is deemed negative (in the eye of the media). If you are a celebrity, you lose your status, which sends a message to anyone who may wish to express their opinion. Eventually people conform.

Given that homophobes like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin have tremendous followings and make a lot of money ($32m for Beck last year, $12m for Palin), or considering that fanatics like the recently-disgraced Dr. George Rekers are paid extravagant sums (up to a quarter million dollars) to testify against gays in court, I'm not sure your complaint withstands the scrutiny of fact. Rekers, for instance, only fell into disrepute after he was caught returning from a European holiday with his gay male prostitute. Other than that, he was highly respected by many, being a founder of two nationwide political organizations (Family Research Council, National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) and a professor emeritus at University of South Carolina Medical School. Rekers has since resigned from NARTH, and FRC claims to have had no contact with him for over a decade. His status with USCMS is unclear, as nobody has announced his departure, but the school has removed his faculty page.

His homophobia appears to have never hurt him professionally. Indeed, it was part of his profession. The ethical conundrum presented when he took a prostitute on holiday, though, appears to have tarnished his public image somewhat.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Strawman.

How so?
I was directly replying to the insult you directed at me.

You brought up the bible and programming together.

Why don't you answer the question.
Just for a change.

So you're saying you DO follow those rules?

What is the point of this question?

I have already explained that: re-read my posts.

No you haven't, and I suspect you won't.

Yet you claim that the bible should be adhered to with regard to homosexuality.

Where is this claim?

The bible just tells it like it is.

LOL!!
Please explain how you arrive at your conclusion.

Then you're betraying your ignorance of what "programming" is.

You're the one who has issues with words and their meanings.

And, one more time, the topic is the bible and YOU were the one that raised the issue of programming and scripture.

The subject matter is scripture along with homosex.
The notion of programming was brought into the ring by the thread starter.
I merely responded to him.
You're wrong again are'nt you?
Why are you always wrong?

And why did it become unlawful?

Why did what become unlawful?

Was the bible incorrect on the morality?

I doubt it.

Yet people DO express negative opinions... And many keep doing it while remaining popular and in the public eye.

I suppose it depends on what is regarded as "negative opinions".

I'm supposed to just take your word for it?

If you like.
I'm just responding to your response.

jan.