Historical Records of the Bible and Jesus.

Friday April 18, 2003

Scholars excavate proof of Kings David and Solomon

JUDY SIEGEL-ITZKOVICH
Jerusalem Post Service

JERUSALEM -- The existence of a united Israelite monarchy headed by King David and his son, King Solomon, in the 10th century BCE has been affirmed by laboratory tests on archeological samples from excavations near Beit She'an.

The findings, reached through carbon dating by scientists at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev and the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, have particular significance to the running debate among archeologists about the authenticity of the biblical account of the two kings, and the period and extent of their reign.

The distinguished Hebrew University archeologist, the late Professor Yigael Yadin, argued more than 40 years ago that a series of monumental structures and particularly the city gates of Hatzor, Megiddo and Gezer as well as certain Megiddo palaces were founded by Solomon, as recorded in the First Book of Kings (9:15).
Calling them Solomon's Gate's is wrong without some inscription or marking to verify they were made for Solomon, without that they could have been made for anybody. It is just wishful thinking to say they were made for Solomon.
emptyforceofchi said:
However, in the 1990s various scholars criticized this view, claiming that the United Monarchy of David and Solomon was not a real historical period of any value in the history of Israel. Indeed, these critics even argued that Yadin's findings were relevant only from the ninth century BCE, the period of the Israelite kings Omri and Ahab.

Writing in the April 11 issue of Science Magazine, Hebrew University Professor Amihai Mazar, Ben-Gurion University archeology and ecology expert Hendrik Bruins and Professor Hans Van der Plicht of Groningen describe their findings from excavations at Tel Rehov, located about five kilometers south of Beit She'an in the Beit She'an Valley. The scholars argue that these findings conclusively prove that they found at Tel Rehov signs of an urban society from the 10th century BCE that can be compared with finds from other Israeli sites such as Megiddo, Hatzor and Gezer, which were attributed in the past to the United Monarchy.
Dr Michael Magee writes:

"David's Tower in Jerusalem is not David's but Herod's, and David's Citadel in Jerusalem is not David's but Moslem, built by the Mamelukes and the Ottomons, though many devout religious tourists do not realize, or, will not hear, any of it."

From here:

1. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0150David.php

And: "The tenth century empire of David and Solomon did not exist because there was no Israel at all before the ninth century. Omri was the real founder of the state of Israel and the Omride dynasty (884-842 BC), as the Assyrian records and the Mesha stele say. This was Israel's first kingdom."

From here:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0140UnitedMonarchy.php

Donald Redford, an author and leading authority on the era, writes in frustration at the absence of anything to verify the biblical stories:

"Such topics as the foreign policy of David and Solomon, Solomon's trade in horses or his marriage to Pharaoh's daughter must remain themes for midrash and fictional treatment."

From here:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0160Solomon.php

with many thanks to Segestan
emptyforceofchi said:
Until the summer of 1971 archaeology had failed to conclusively prove the historical basis of the Bible. The walls of Jericho had fallen from grace, the dream of Biblical Archaeologist William Foxwell Albright was still just a theory. That summer Yigael Yadin would complete the first proof of a Biblical Passage by finding the city gate of Gezer which King Solomon built circa 960 BC, and the Bible described in 1 Kings 9:15


"Now this is the way King Solomon conscripted the Labor Corps to build the house of the Lord, his house, the Millo, the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer"

The Holy Bible 1 Kings 9:15



The Solomonic Gate at Gezer was the third Solomonic Gate discovered. Combined with the discoveries of the Solomonic Gates at Megiddo in the 1930's and Hazor in the 1950's, the Gezer Gate completed the first proof of a biblical passage in history with rocks on the ground. It was the long sought after historical nexus where scientific theory


peace.
rebutted above.
 
Hi all,


Someone whose reading comprehension is so bad they cannot get a simple name correct.

Someone who cannot tell which Don Juan I mean, even when I include (Carlos Castaneda) to make it clear.

Someone who simply ignores the evidence which shows he is wrong.


...or entirely fictional characters.

Yes, entirely fictional characters who were passed off as historical.
Exactly what YOU claimed did NOT exist.

Thus proving you wrong.
You just IGNORED them!

We can all see you are simply unable to address the facts, because you are pathologically incapable of admitting error.


Again, you cannot ask me to prove that Adam and Eve existed.

WTF?
Do you even remember what we are arguing?
It appears not.

Adam and Eve did NOT exist - but they WERE passed of as historical for centuries.

Proving you wrong.
Again.


Iasion
 
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Hiya,

Friday April 18, 2003
Scholars excavate proof of Kings David and Solomon

Really?
I look forward to seeing this "proof".
(I'll ignore the fact that science does NOT do "proof", and consider this to mean "clear and certain evidence".)


JERUSALEM -- The existence of a united Israelite monarchy headed by King David and his son, King Solomon, in the 10th century BCE has been affirmed by laboratory tests on archeological samples from excavations near Beit She'an.

Really?
I look forward to seeing this "affirmed".


The findings, reached through carbon dating by scientists at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev and the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, have particular significance to the running debate among archeologists about the authenticity of the biblical account of the two kings, and the period and extent of their reign.

Really?


The distinguished Hebrew University archeologist, the late Professor Yigael Yadin, argued more than 40 years ago that a series of monumental structures and particularly the city gates of Hatzor, Megiddo and Gezer as well as certain Megiddo palaces were founded by Solomon, as recorded in the First Book of Kings (9:15).

So,
40 years ago, a faithful believer made some CLAIMS.
No "proof" there.


However, in the 1990s various scholars criticized this view, claiming that the United Monarchy of David and Solomon was not a real historical period of any value in the history of Israel. Indeed, these critics even argued that Yadin's findings were relevant only from the ninth century BCE, the period of the Israelite kings Omri and Ahab.

So,
these claims did not stand up up so scrutiny.

Writing in the April 11 issue of Science Magazine, Hebrew University Professor Amihai Mazar, Ben-Gurion University archeology and ecology expert Hendrik Bruins and Professor Hans Van der Plicht of Groningen describe their findings from excavations at Tel Rehov, located about five kilometers south of Beit She'an in the Beit She'an Valley. The scholars argue that these findings conclusively prove that they found at Tel Rehov signs of an urban society from the 10th century BCE that can be compared with finds from other Israeli sites such as Megiddo, Hatzor and Gezer, which were attributed in the past to the United Monarchy.

Here is the meat :
"argue that these findings conclusively prove that they found at Tel Rehov signs of an urban society from the 10th century BCE"

So,
this "proof" for Solomon merely turns out to be a evidence for
"an urban society from the 10th century BCE".

No evidence for Solomon, no evidence for anything to do with the Bible at all. Just an urban society.

What is the connection with Solomon ?
This : "which were attributed in the past to the United Monarchy".

Yet the article is headed
"Scholars excavate PROOF of Kings David and SOLOMON"

when the reality is :
"Scholars find evidence for 10th century urban society".



The excavations at Tel Rehov have been carried out over the past six years under the direction of Mazar, with the financial support of John Camp of Minneapolis, Minn. The digs revealed several strata from the time of the Book of Judges (12th to 11th centuries BCE) until the Assyrian conquest of Israel in the eighth century BCE.

Once again - all this reveals is occupation in 12th/11th centuries - something we KNOW is true.

But then the article turns to almost to preaching "the digs revealed several strata from the time of the Book of Judges". As if they are EVIDENCE for the time of judges.

This article from the popular press is nothing more than apologetics.


In the article in Science, Mazar, Bruins and Van der Plicht write of radiometric carbon 14 tests that were carried out at Groningen on charred grain and olive pits found in various strata at Tel Rehov. The dates achieved in this research were particularly precise, making it one of the best sets of radiometric dates based on stratigraphic sequence from any site related to the biblical period.

There is NO evidence this site is related to anything Biblical. But to a believer, it MUST be.


The results show that two strata at Tel Rehov are safely dated to the 10th century BCE. One stratum was destroyed in heavy fire. The date of this destruction fits very well with the reign of Shishak, the Egyptian Pharaoh who invaded the Land of Israel around 925 BCE. Shishak's invasion is mentioned both in the Bible (Kings I 14:25) and in his monumental inscription at the temple of Amun at Karnak in Upper Egypt, where Rehov is mentioned among many other places conquered at that time.

It fits.
That's it.
No evidence of any connection, but to a believer, it fits, so it is evidence.


Shishak's military campaign was recorded in stone relief on the southern wall of the Amun temple, listing the names of the places he raided in ancient Israel and the Levant. The name Rehov appears on this list after the term "The Valley," most likely referring to the Beit She'an/Jordan Valley, and before the name Beit She'an. This sequence of place names at Karnak fits the local geography in the region of Tel Rehov very well indeed, according to the Science article.

So the historical records of a historical figure are accurate historically. So what? There is no connection to Solomon here.


Until the summer of 1971 archaeology had failed to conclusively prove the historical basis of the Bible. The walls of Jericho had fallen from grace, the dream of Biblical Archaeologist William Foxwell Albright was still just a theory. That summer Yigael Yadin would complete the first proof of a Biblical Passage by finding the city gate of Gezer which King Solomon built circa 960 BC, and the Bible described in 1 Kings 9:15

Proof?
Solomon's gate?
Really?

Does archeology in general agree with these CLAIMS, EmptyForce?

Have you checked the claims in this popular article with modern mainstream archeology?


Iasion
 
Hi all,

Someone whose reading comprehension is so bad they cannot get a simple name correct.

Someone who cannot tell which Don Juan I mean, even when I include (Carlos Castaneda) to make it clear.

Someone who simply ignores the evidence which shows he is wrong.

Yes, entirely fictional characters who were passed off as historical.
Exactly what YOU claimed did NOT exist.

Thus proving you wrong.
You just IGNORED them!

We can all see you are simply unable to address the facts, because you are pathologically incapable of admitting error.

WTF?
Do you even remember what we are arguing?
It appears not.

Adam and Eve did NOT exist - but they WERE passed of as historical for centuries.

Proving you wrong.
Again.


Iasion

Well now your just looking to insult me.

I got your name wrong because i just scan you posts. Sure you may impress a few people here (3 or 4) but i never found you all that compelling. You may also have your own little messianic complex but that is not my problem.

Someone who cannot tell which Don Juan I mean, even when I include (Carlos Castaneda) to make it clear.

i really had very little interest because i learned about that around the third grade. Carlos Castaneda...give me a break. Tell me how what he wrote about has anything to do with this. Your just shooting blanks.

I see, aside from your insults, that you STILL have not come up with one name to corroborate what you are saying, to show a precedence. I am very sure of the things i say here, not because of animosity, which is your motivation, but just because it is logical. There is no reason to make people up and it would not convince anyone anyway.

You are doing the same exact thing by focusing on one subject and building a story (religion) around that it. This is what conspiracy makers do. I could care less about someones religious beliefs. I look at things subjectively and from the viewpoint of an Agnostic. Never worshiped in churches or temples and never read a holy book. Not that there is anything wrong with that for other people because if you dont bother anyone than it is none of my business.
 
Last edited:
Greetings,

Let's recap -

John99 said this :
"One thing to consider is that no historical figure has ever been made up and passed off as as an actual person."

Of course it's not possible for a figure that WAS actually historical to have been "made up", so this statement has to be interpreted to mean :

"One thing to consider is that no [purported] historical figure has ever been made up and passed off as as an actual person."

Yet two of us listed several such figures.


i really had very little interest because i learned about that around the third grade. Carlos Castaneda...give me a break. Tell me how what he wrote about has anything to do with this. Your just shooting blanks.

What is wrong with you?
Have you forgotten what YOUR claim is already ?

Carlos Castaneda "made up" a [purported] historical figure that he "passed of as as actual person".

Clear and present evidence that disproves your claim. You just keep pretending otherwise. No-one is fooled.


I see, aside from your insults, that you STILL have not come up with one name to corroborate what you are saying,

Liar.
I listed SEVERAL, you have even mentioned one such in THIS post.
Yet you lie that I have listed none !



There is no reason to make people up and it would not convince anyone anyway.

There are many reasons to make people up.

There are many persons that HAVE been made up, that have been passed off as real people, such as :

Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, David etc.
John Frum (cargo cult)
Molly Pitcher (civil war)
Don Juan (from Carlos Castaneda)
William Tell
Ebion (mythical founder of the Ebionites)
Odysseus, Hercules, Ajax
Krishna
Zoroaster
Hermes

John99 will no doubt just continue to ignore all these examples that prove him wrong.

Quite sad really.


Iasion
 
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Iason,

You start your post with "Greetings" and a few lines later this:

You lieing sack of shit.

Nice. Showing your true colors now.

I said pick ONE historical figure that was believed to be an actual person and has been PROVEN NOT to be an actual person.

Not disputed from folklore or some obscure person written about in a book that may or may not be made up. I can go through a Charles Dickens novel and say any character was based on a real person. Not the same thing.

The reason they are not the same is because the level is not the same. The followers, the believers etc. this is what i am looking for. You tell me "molly malone from the folk song in 1822 was not real" what would you like for me to tell you?

Carlos Castaneda "made up" a [purported] historical figure that he "passed of as as actual person".

And?....

Religions that are\were based on an actual person, a figurehead WERE\ARE based on actual people. Even today we see this. What is so hard to understand? And why is this so hard to accept?

Has nothing to do with weather these people are actual prophets or anything like that. Just common sense, if you cannot handle this then let me know and i will not respond to you anymore.

How can i possibly tell you that Adam and Eve were real or fake? I am sure you think you can though.
 
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If you cannot do this then be big enough to admit it. I dont appreciate the name calling.
Then don't be such a ?(you choose), formulate a reasoned argument, instead of trying to change the goalpost.
You have been proven wrong accept it.
 
Hiya,

Iason,
I said pick ONE historical figure that was believed to be an actual person and has been PROVEN NOT to be an actual person.

Yup,
And I provided several.
Now you appear to be playing a silly game where several is not one, making ME wrong.

How pathetic.


Not disputed from folklore or some obscure person written about in a book that may or may not be made up.

Ah, so now after being proved wrong, you make up some bullshit reasons to change the argument.

How dishonest.


The reason they are not the same is because the level is not the same. The followers, the believers etc. this is what i am looking for.

Scientology has many many believers.
Does that make Xenu real?
Don Juan?
John Frum?
All have/had followers and believers.



And it proves your claim false.
There is a new religion forming around the teachings of Don Juan - believers, followers etc.


Religions that are\were based on an actual person, a figurehead WERE\ARE based on actual people.


Such as the Goddess Demeter?
Or Dionysus?
Or Bacchus?
Or Don Juan?
Or Adam and Eve?
Or Xenu?
Or Mithras?
Or Luke Skywalker?

Or are you playing word games, so you can withdraw to claiming all actual persons are actual persons? You keep mangling your sentences.


How can i possibly tell you that Adam and Eve were real or fake? I am sure you think you can though.

Wow.
You cannot tell whether Adam and Eve were historical or not?
How sad for humanity I feel right now :-(


Iasion
 
Calling them Solomon's Gate's is wrong without some inscription or marking to verify they were made for Solomon, without that they could have been made for anybody. It is just wishful thinking to say they were made for Solomon.Dr Michael Magee writes:

"David's Tower in Jerusalem is not David's but Herod's, and David's Citadel in Jerusalem is not David's but Moslem, built by the Mamelukes and the Ottomons, though many devout religious tourists do not realize, or, will not hear, any of it."

From here:

1. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0150David.php

And: "The tenth century empire of David and Solomon did not exist because there was no Israel at all before the ninth century. Omri was the real founder of the state of Israel and the Omride dynasty (884-842 BC), as the Assyrian records and the Mesha stele say. This was Israel's first kingdom."

From here:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0140UnitedMonarchy.php

Donald Redford, an author and leading authority on the era, writes in frustration at the absence of anything to verify the biblical stories:

"Such topics as the foreign policy of David and Solomon, Solomon's trade in horses or his marriage to Pharaoh's daughter must remain themes for midrash and fictional treatment."

From here:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0160Solomon.php

with many thanks to Segestan rebutted above.

Hiya,



Really?
I look forward to seeing this "proof".
(I'll ignore the fact that science does NOT do "proof", and consider this to mean "clear and certain evidence".)




Really?
I look forward to seeing this "affirmed".




Really?




So,
40 years ago, a faithful believer made some CLAIMS.
No "proof" there.




So,
these claims did not stand up up so scrutiny.



Here is the meat :
"argue that these findings conclusively prove that they found at Tel Rehov signs of an urban society from the 10th century BCE"

So,
this "proof" for Solomon merely turns out to be a evidence for
"an urban society from the 10th century BCE".

No evidence for Solomon, no evidence for anything to do with the Bible at all. Just an urban society.

What is the connection with Solomon ?
This : "which were attributed in the past to the United Monarchy".

Yet the article is headed
"Scholars excavate PROOF of Kings David and SOLOMON"

when the reality is :
"Scholars find evidence for 10th century urban society".





Once again - all this reveals is occupation in 12th/11th centuries - something we KNOW is true.

But then the article turns to almost to preaching "the digs revealed several strata from the time of the Book of Judges". As if they are EVIDENCE for the time of judges.

This article from the popular press is nothing more than apologetics.




There is NO evidence this site is related to anything Biblical. But to a believer, it MUST be.




It fits.
That's it.
No evidence of any connection, but to a believer, it fits, so it is evidence.




So the historical records of a historical figure are accurate historically. So what? There is no connection to Solomon here.




Proof?
Solomon's gate?
Really?

Does archeology in general agree with these CLAIMS, EmptyForce?

Have you checked the claims in this popular article with modern mainstream archeology?


Iasion



I see that it proves a settlement existed with resemblece to that of king solomons, it does not directly say anywhere or have inscribed his name to claim ownership of the kingdom. The gates match up with the script but again its not proof of solomon as the ruler.

I am checking all the claims, The mainstream have not concluded that it is king solomons kingdon, there needs to be more evidence that actualy puts his name to it.

Have either of you found anyting else out about this particular kingdom, that you have not mentioned or debated?.


peace.
 
Could you guys keep the bickering to a minimum level pleaee, or add some humour to it atleast if you have to verbaly slap each other like little girls, and keep the debate moving.



peace.
 
Hiya,

it does not directly say anywhere or have inscribed his name to claim ownership of the kingdom. The gates match up with the script but again its not proof of solomon as the ruler.

So, the article's title was an outright lie.
Your claim that there is evidence for Solomon is false.

Like I said.


Iasion
 
I am checking all the claims, The mainstream have not concluded that it is king solomons kingdon, there needs to be more evidence that actualy puts his name to it.

So you will keep believing.
Ignoring the facts.


Have either of you found anyting else out about this particular kingdom, that you have not mentioned or debated?.

Solomon's kingdom?
It didn't exist.


Iasion
 
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