Here you go Christians, something to really pray for!
- Thread starter Godless
- Start date
Godless said:
Oh but I do, Make gasoline high enough and it's:
goodbye arabs, goodbye OPEC, goodbye SUVs, goodbye chevy, goodbye Ford and Chrysler, goodbye oil companies, goodbye carbon monoxide and greenhouse gases, goodbye smog..
Hello fuel cells, hello hydrogen fuel, hello USA coal industry with 40% of the world's known coal reserves and 4 times more energy than all the world's oil countries combined, hello clean air, hello new technology. YEEHII!
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
Perhaps you may see it that way and it's understandable. If I pray for my Aunt Sally to get better, sure, may seem selfish since I don't want to see her be sick but there's also the other point, which is so she will feel better. Yes, it's arguable and still it could be called selfish, since you could say, '...ahh, so ultimately, you would feel better'. Thing is, when someone is asking for something which can be more fortunate to another than the self, He may grant it just because the person prayed and wants good for someone who is loyal to Him. If you are praying in sadness that she could die, you haven't much faith unless you think she's going to the bad place. If you think she is going to heaven and excited she could die, that is not faith either. God wants us to live long lives, not hope for death on ourselves or someone else. As I said before, let reason, not emotion, guide you to God. He is a fair and just God and He gave us reason to give us fairness ourselves and a sense of justice. So I say, pray out of reason, not emotion. God loves these people that pray as such. A beggard is less likely to have their prayer granted just as a malicious, 'do it or I won't believe' individual would be less likely. Would you not be more likely to give money to a needy individual on the street if they were to ask kindly than to beg or insist? So is our God.
lol, suddenly your omnipotent god can't make gas cheap? thats a pretty lame ass god if you ask me.
nutter of the year goes to.... WOODY!
congratulations, in that single post you have combined technological, economical, environmental, and religious idiocy at a mind boggling level. how do you do it? drugs? repeated blows to the head? birth defects? I must know!
cato said,
My mind was altered by 5 years as an engineer in Generation Technology for an electric utility. That doesn't mean I'm a world expert on the subject, but I've had more than a casual acquantance with fuel cell technology. I evaluated "backyard generation" using this technology.
AS a historical footnote, I wonder what you would have said about Fulton's Folly (the steam boat).
The Japanese car companies are developing fuel cell technology. The european fossil fired plants already gassify coal to hydrogen.
Perhaps you should tell them that it won't work. While you are at it -- tell me why coal gasification and fuel cell technonolgy will not work in an automobile.
The USA is far more blessed with coal than any other country in the world. Some estimate we have more than half the world's coal reserves and the energy in coal reserves exceeds that in petro reserves by a factor of 10.
My mind was altered by 5 years as an engineer in Generation Technology for an electric utility. That doesn't mean I'm a world expert on the subject, but I've had more than a casual acquantance with fuel cell technology. I evaluated "backyard generation" using this technology.
AS a historical footnote, I wonder what you would have said about Fulton's Folly (the steam boat).
The Japanese car companies are developing fuel cell technology. The european fossil fired plants already gassify coal to hydrogen.
Perhaps you should tell them that it won't work. While you are at it -- tell me why coal gasification and fuel cell technonolgy will not work in an automobile.
The USA is far more blessed with coal than any other country in the world. Some estimate we have more than half the world's coal reserves and the energy in coal reserves exceeds that in petro reserves by a factor of 10.
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I never said they would not work. its simple economics. if they can do the job of a combustion engine, and cost the same or less, then they will prevail as the dominant energy source. otherwise they wont.
where do you propose we get the energy for these fuel cells? coal? if we produce hydrogen from coal, the cost would be greater than gasoline. which means that you have to work more to do the same thing, which means your absolute wealth is diminished.
these are very simple concepts. you should do a bit more homework. I try and keep and open mind, but nobody has made a decent argument for going hydrogen right now. feel free to make your case, but don't sit back and claim that $10/gal gasoline is going to make anything better.
sources:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/07/doe_raises_hydr.html
note that the current price is about $5 (gge) for hydrogen, and about $1.50 for gasoline.
http://transtech.anl.gov/v4n4/hydrogen_demand.html
where do you propose we get the energy for these fuel cells? coal? if we produce hydrogen from coal, the cost would be greater than gasoline. which means that you have to work more to do the same thing, which means your absolute wealth is diminished.
these are very simple concepts. you should do a bit more homework. I try and keep and open mind, but nobody has made a decent argument for going hydrogen right now. feel free to make your case, but don't sit back and claim that $10/gal gasoline is going to make anything better.
sources:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/07/doe_raises_hydr.html
note that the current price is about $5 (gge) for hydrogen, and about $1.50 for gasoline.
http://transtech.anl.gov/v4n4/hydrogen_demand.html
cato said:
That's with today's technology and today's economies of scale. Regardless of what you say, there are power plants right here in the USA that gasify coal to produce electricity. Honda will have a commercially available fuel cell mobile by around 2010. Iceland already has fuel cell vehicles.
Point #1:
Have you ever heard of a power plant than runs off of petro fuel? They are called combustion turbines, and typically run off of aircraft derivative fuel. If you buy power from a combustion turbine it costs $.50/KWH to make (or more). My power rates are $.04/KWH on a predominately coal-fired power grid. Coal is definately cheaper than gas for making electricity -- no doubt about it.
Point #2:
In 1973, I remember buying a Texas Instrument electronic calculator that added, subtracted ,multiplied, divided, performed square root, square, and scientific notation. I paid $170 for it. In current inflated dollars it would be more than twice that amount.
Now I can buy the same thing for about $10 at the local Walmart. That's what design technology, production technology, and economies of scale have done. The same is true of computers. Buy one and watch how fast it becomes overpriced and outperformed by the next generation.
Point 3:
Gas prices have more than doubled in the past 2 years, but consumers aren't changing their spending habits on gas. They still buy gas guzzlers, the demand for gas still rises right here in the USA. They complain with their mouths, but keep doing the same thing with their pocket book. If the rising price of fuel really mattered, then wouldn't they buy fuel efficient automobiles? Detroit keeps on pumping out the guzzlers. How about 9 mpg for a Dodge Ram -- does it sound like gas prices matter to that user?
On the otherhand -- the projected cost of hydrogen from your source:
Final Delivered H2 Cost in GYOW: U.S. Summary by Metropolitan versus Non-Metropolitan Areas
Yeah, $10 a gallon for gas will get us off of our imported oil addiction. The jobs for making the hydrogen will be right here in the USA. I guess the service economy people will be crying, but the manufactuing side will have plenty to do.
From your source:
Issues Requiring Further Analysis:
Resource potential of H2 resource fuels
Development of regional H2 supply curves
Inter-regional production and transport of H2
Rural travel requirements
Nature of rural interstate travel
Potential changes in rural or non-metropolitan travel
Magnitude of FCV refueling infrastructure in non-metropolitan areas
Number of gasoline-refueling facilities
Status of non-metropolitan interstate refueling locations
Travel distances to refuel
Distributed production in nonmetropolitan areas in low-H2-demand scenarios
Alternative assumptions for provision of H2 to non-metropolitan areas
Reasonable upper bound on distributed production
Phase-in of FCVs by U.S. Census Division
Distributed H2 production in metropolitan areas
Various issues related to H2 pathway cost estimates
Sounds like plenty of work for the science and engineering community, no?
That's with today's technology and today's economies of scale. Regardless of what you say, there are power plants right here in the USA that gasify coal to produce electricity. Honda will have a commercially available fuel cell mobile by around 2010. Iceland already has fuel cell vehicles.
Point #1:
Have you ever heard of a power plant than runs off of petro fuel? They are called combustion turbines, and typically run off of aircraft derivative fuel. If you buy power from a combustion turbine it costs $.50/KWH to make (or more). My power rates are $.04/KWH on a predominately coal-fired power grid. Coal is definately cheaper than gas for making electricity -- no doubt about it.
Point #2:
In 1973, I remember buying a Texas Instrument electronic calculator that added, subtracted ,multiplied, divided, performed square root, square, and scientific notation. I paid $170 for it. In current inflated dollars it would be more than twice that amount.
Now I can buy the same thing for about $10 at the local Walmart. That's what design technology, production technology, and economies of scale have done. The same is true of computers. Buy one and watch how fast it becomes overpriced and outperformed by the next generation.
Point 3:
Gas prices have more than doubled in the past 2 years, but consumers aren't changing their spending habits on gas. They still buy gas guzzlers, the demand for gas still rises right here in the USA. They complain with their mouths, but keep doing the same thing with their pocket book. If the rising price of fuel really mattered, then wouldn't they buy fuel efficient automobiles? Detroit keeps on pumping out the guzzlers. How about 9 mpg for a Dodge Ram -- does it sound like gas prices matter to that user?
On the otherhand -- the projected cost of hydrogen from your source:
Final Delivered H2 Cost in GYOW: U.S. Summary by Metropolitan versus Non-Metropolitan Areas
Yeah, $10 a gallon for gas will get us off of our imported oil addiction. The jobs for making the hydrogen will be right here in the USA. I guess the service economy people will be crying, but the manufactuing side will have plenty to do.
From your source:
Issues Requiring Further Analysis:
Resource potential of H2 resource fuels
Development of regional H2 supply curves
Inter-regional production and transport of H2
Rural travel requirements
Nature of rural interstate travel
Potential changes in rural or non-metropolitan travel
Magnitude of FCV refueling infrastructure in non-metropolitan areas
Number of gasoline-refueling facilities
Status of non-metropolitan interstate refueling locations
Travel distances to refuel
Distributed production in nonmetropolitan areas in low-H2-demand scenarios
Alternative assumptions for provision of H2 to non-metropolitan areas
Reasonable upper bound on distributed production
Phase-in of FCVs by U.S. Census Division
Distributed H2 production in metropolitan areas
Various issues related to H2 pathway cost estimates
Sounds like plenty of work for the science and engineering community, no?
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I can see why some people here don't believe in God. They have confused God with the genie in a bottle supposed to grant wishes.
I remember on the old M.A.S.H. television show, Major Frank Burns was always praying a 'little test prayer', asking for chocolate pudding for dessert. His theory was if he got the chocolate pudding, God liked him and he would move on to more important things.
I think too many folks here just don't get enough chocolate pudding and therefore, they're mad at God for not 'delivering'. USp8triot tried to explain it and no one understood. Prayer is more than 'Godgimme'.
I pray daily. I pray to be more in tune with God. I pray to be more like God. I tell God my problems and the fears those problems generate. I tell God what I think I need in life and what I'm trying to do. During this process, God reveals to me what He wants me to do. God does not do things 'my way' much of the time; but sometimes. I find when I get with God's program, my program runs much more smoothly. The point is, prayer does work. The difficulty is deophobes don't understand it at all; non-believers and some not committed Christians are puzzled by it. For Christians, it's a learning curve problem. For deophobes, no understanding is possible. One of the requirements for prayer to work is the pray-er has to know God. Obviously, that's an unsurmountable barrier for a deophobe.
I live in the Los Angeles, CA area. Gas is running about $3.25 for 87 octane 'cheap stuff'. God still allows me to do the driving I need to do and I still have enough money to run my household and even spend some money on fun and frivolity.
I do not feel it appropriate to pray for cheap gasoline. However, I will pray for you all to know God as He wants you to know Him - which will in turn minimize the problem of expensive gasoline. That is the long term, permanent solution.
I remember on the old M.A.S.H. television show, Major Frank Burns was always praying a 'little test prayer', asking for chocolate pudding for dessert. His theory was if he got the chocolate pudding, God liked him and he would move on to more important things.
I think too many folks here just don't get enough chocolate pudding and therefore, they're mad at God for not 'delivering'. USp8triot tried to explain it and no one understood. Prayer is more than 'Godgimme'.
I pray daily. I pray to be more in tune with God. I pray to be more like God. I tell God my problems and the fears those problems generate. I tell God what I think I need in life and what I'm trying to do. During this process, God reveals to me what He wants me to do. God does not do things 'my way' much of the time; but sometimes. I find when I get with God's program, my program runs much more smoothly. The point is, prayer does work. The difficulty is deophobes don't understand it at all; non-believers and some not committed Christians are puzzled by it. For Christians, it's a learning curve problem. For deophobes, no understanding is possible. One of the requirements for prayer to work is the pray-er has to know God. Obviously, that's an unsurmountable barrier for a deophobe.
I live in the Los Angeles, CA area. Gas is running about $3.25 for 87 octane 'cheap stuff'. God still allows me to do the driving I need to do and I still have enough money to run my household and even spend some money on fun and frivolity.
I do not feel it appropriate to pray for cheap gasoline. However, I will pray for you all to know God as He wants you to know Him - which will in turn minimize the problem of expensive gasoline. That is the long term, permanent solution.
Atheists are not confused by such thing. It's mainly theist who pray, as if god were the genie in a bottle to grant them their wishes.
It's not about chocolate pudding, it's about wether prayer works or not. The odds are against prayer working for anything! basically it's delusion at it's best.
You can pray 24/7 if you like, you are deluding yourself that your intune "with god" And please don't pray to be more like god, the fact of the matter this deity is a murdering asshole!. Are you praying to be like that?
Prove it!
What the hell is "deophobes"? Your version of saying secularists, humanists, atheists, skeptics? Prayer doesn't work, many tests have been done by church goers, and fact is the damn thing didn't work one iota.
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Godless
woody, a TI calculator is not a hydrogen fuel cell. you can't make that correlation and have it mean anything. you have to show me evidence that hydrogen is, or can be, more economical than gasoline. you have yet to do so.
I think you are having trouble with macroeconomic ramifications of $10/gal gasoline. it means all of our goods cost more because the energy needed to produce/transport is more expensive. that reduces our absolute wealth. I would rather be dependent on another country for energy than live in the dark ages... but thats just me.
I fail to see how people's vehicle buying habits plays into our argument.
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a quick napkiin estimate puts the cost of using hydrogen at about $2T (trillion) more than gasoline in the next 50 years. that is a lot of money, and I would rather not pay it.
reference for gasoline consumed each year:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm
I think you are having trouble with macroeconomic ramifications of $10/gal gasoline. it means all of our goods cost more because the energy needed to produce/transport is more expensive. that reduces our absolute wealth. I would rather be dependent on another country for energy than live in the dark ages... but thats just me.
I fail to see how people's vehicle buying habits plays into our argument.
edit:
a quick napkiin estimate puts the cost of using hydrogen at about $2T (trillion) more than gasoline in the next 50 years. that is a lot of money, and I would rather not pay it.
reference for gasoline consumed each year:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm
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Sounds like your praying isn't that different from meditation... a method of training your brain to be more efficient.Archie said:
It has been mostly Christian conservatives that believe in a cornucopian viewpoint, that God created everything in the world expressly for humans, and therefore that driving a large vehicle is a God-given right. They tend not to pay attention to scientific methods that also happen to contradict traditional conceptions regarding the orgin of species, and so they discount the results of climate science as having a political agenda.
cato said:
Well around here it's about $2.80 for a gallon of gas. Where do you live?
Here's a definition:
Fuel cells are almost 100% efficient in converting chemical energy to electrical energy whereas the otto cyle (automobile engine) is only about 25% efficient in converting chemical energy to mechanical energy. Most electric motors are about 95% efficient in converting electrical energy to mechanical energy. That would make a fuel cell about 95% efficient for converting chemical to mechanical energy. Wouldn't that imply that hydrogen is already more economical than gasolene?
Even when that country is out to destroy you? How much do you suppose 9/11 cost us? Is it just coincidence that most of the suicide attackers were Saudi Arabian and all of them were arabs? How much would an arab with a nuclear suitcase bomb cost us in uptown NYC or Washington, DC? Do you suppose arab oil money has anything to do with arab terrorism? Why don't we just pay the suicide bombers ourselves to come over here and do us in?
Well around here it's about $2.80 for a gallon of gas. Where do you live?
Here's a definition:
Fuel cells are almost 100% efficient in converting chemical energy to electrical energy whereas the otto cyle (automobile engine) is only about 25% efficient in converting chemical energy to mechanical energy. Most electric motors are about 95% efficient in converting electrical energy to mechanical energy. That would make a fuel cell about 95% efficient for converting chemical to mechanical energy. Wouldn't that imply that hydrogen is already more economical than gasolene?
Even when that country is out to destroy you? How much do you suppose 9/11 cost us? Is it just coincidence that most of the suicide attackers were Saudi Arabian and all of them were arabs? How much would an arab with a nuclear suitcase bomb cost us in uptown NYC or Washington, DC? Do you suppose arab oil money has anything to do with arab terrorism? Why don't we just pay the suicide bombers ourselves to come over here and do us in?
sorry, I grabbed that off the article I read. it must have been old. I didn't know the amount of taxes on gasoline, so I assumed that was the difference. however, I checked it out, and there is only about 50 cents per gallon tax. so gasoline is about 230/gal (untaxed) as apposed to $5+ for hydrogen. there is still a huge difference.
you make way too many assumptions. firstly, that is a best case efficiency for the motors. you are not going to find 95% in mass production car motors, let alone after some use. secondly, how do you plan to store the hydrogen? cryonics? that takes a lot of energy. massive tanks? that takes mass. the best way to store it is chemically, but it will cost you efficiency. I don't know where you got your 95% statistics from (
), but I would love to see your sources.here is mine:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell4.htm
"...about 24 to 32 percent."
finally, we cannot tell the political state of the future. switching to hydrogen may bring its own pitfalls. let alone cure the ones we have. terrorism isn't just about us buying oil, that argument is invalid.
if you are going to make outlandish claims, you should at least justify them better.
Cato said:
It kind of looks like reality is outlandish to you.
How about a fuel cell automobile for the California market, the Honda FCX?
How about the California hydrogen highway by 2010? Florida will have one too.
Cato said:
Where did you get your economics degree anyway, at Liberal U? Here's the economic model that counters your claim.
You're in a minority on your belief. The arab oil nations are politically repressive. The political leadership is paid for by oil money. The people have little if any voice at all, and they speak through desperate acts of terrorism. Their economies have a hyperextended case of Dutch Disease. From the source:
Cato, I like that -- how about opening an economics text and seeing it for yourself.
If not a hydrogen vehicle, then how about Syntroleum's process for coal gasification to diesel?
There will always be naysayers for technological progress. I'm not sure if your motivation is purely economic.
By the way, do you have any good references that compare gas mileage alone for a gasoline automobile vs. a fuel cell automobile? I'm talking mpg of gasoline vs mpgge for a fuel cell automobile. I would really appreciate it if you could provide that information because I've been looking for it. It's difficult to get a good comparison -- like trying to compare natural gas to electricity for a water heater.
It kind of looks like reality is outlandish to you.
How about a fuel cell automobile for the California market, the Honda FCX?
How about the California hydrogen highway by 2010? Florida will have one too.
Cato said:
Where did you get your economics degree anyway, at Liberal U? Here's the economic model that counters your claim.
You're in a minority on your belief. The arab oil nations are politically repressive. The political leadership is paid for by oil money. The people have little if any voice at all, and they speak through desperate acts of terrorism. Their economies have a hyperextended case of Dutch Disease. From the source:
Cato, I like that -- how about opening an economics text and seeing it for yourself.
If not a hydrogen vehicle, then how about Syntroleum's process for coal gasification to diesel?
There will always be naysayers for technological progress. I'm not sure if your motivation is purely economic.
By the way, do you have any good references that compare gas mileage alone for a gasoline automobile vs. a fuel cell automobile? I'm talking mpg of gasoline vs mpgge for a fuel cell automobile. I would really appreciate it if you could provide that information because I've been looking for it. It's difficult to get a good comparison -- like trying to compare natural gas to electricity for a water heater.
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