Here we go again

[Norsefire]

i'd have to say RELATIVELY no

Then there we have it.

Capitalism is entirely voluntarism. Now I'm talking about true free market capitalism, not feudalism, because that isn't remotely the same thing and was in fact sustained by the state, the King.

What does this mean? As capitalism is entirely voluntarism, this means that capitalism is built from the ground up.. In a world of free market capitalism, society is whatever the people make it; it isn't from a "top down" point of view. Society is, logically, the product of the interactions of human beings; in a capitalist society, the [majority] decent, hard working, ethical and compassionate human beings will be free to co operate and aid one another.

And if we assume that human beings want to co operate, have charity, and have community, then it's illogical to say "the state must force them to do this" if they will do it on their own, as they would do in a capitalist society

where children are starving to death and barely have clothes on their backs.

And if you examine the situation, you will find that this is due to the wars sustained and created by states; you will find that this is due to the exploitation of the people by corporations encouraged, allowed, and sustained by government

 

[PieAreSquared]

no, i do not. but i think that's an unfair judgement. and as i said in another thread, it's my responsibility to instill values and ideals through the way i love them, and to discuss with them what they are taught in school. but it is not my responsibility to make their mind up for them.

No woo woo & state laws yet

 

[Norsefire]

Norse,

Here.



"establishment of religion"

It's a problem.

That isn't what I am talking about; I'm arguing from a logical and ethical point of view, if people are funding something they should have a say in what and how it works

Anything can be a law, "good" or "bad"

 

[Lori_7]

Then there we have it.

Capitalism is entirely the [majority] decent, hard working, ethical and compassionate human beings will be free to co operate and aid one another.

And if we assume that human beings want to co operate, have charity, and have community, then it's illogical to say "the state must force them to do this" if they will do it on their own, as they would do in a capitalist society

this is very relative, and i just don't see it happening around me or anywhere else in the world. no majority here. mother theresa was no majority man.

And if you examine the situation, you will find that this is due to the wars sustained and created by states; you will find that this is due to the exploitation of the people by corporations encouraged, allowed, and sustained by government

no it's not. next week i'm taking a vacation. if i wasn't greedy i could take the money i'm spending on that, and help someone in need. we all make those choices on our own everyday. we are all equally suffering because of war and the cost (which is indeed more than dollars).

 

[Norsefire]

this is very relative, and i just don't see it happening around me or anywhere else in the world. no majority here. mother theresa was no majority man.

Huh?

I don't understand a thing you said here

Free market is free interaction; with free interaction, the product, society, is whatever the people make it, through their own decisions and actions.

no it's not. next week i'm taking a vacation. if i wasn't greedy i could take the money i'm spending on that, and help someone in need. we all make those choices on our own everyday. we are all equally suffering because of war and the cost (which is indeed more than dollars).

What do you mean no it's not? You're not the one causing their poverty; the state, and the corporations, are the ones keeping them down.

 

[Lori_7]

Huh?

I don't understand a thing you said here

Free market is free interaction; with free interaction, the product, society, is whatever the people make it, through their own decisions and actions.

and people are greedy. hence the contaminate.

What do you mean no it's not? You're not the one causing their poverty; the state, and the corporations, are the ones keeping them down.

i don't care if i'm causing their poverty or not. more than likely, they're causing their own poverty. but there's nothing stopping me from helping them except my own greed.

 

[Norsefire]

and people are greedy. hence the contaminate.

All people are greedy?

Even if, a certain level of greed is natural. Most people are also compassionate and decent and willing and wanting to co operate.

i don't care if i'm causing their poverty or not. more than likely, they're causing their own poverty. but there's nothing stopping me from helping them except my own greed.

Right, but that wasn't my point; a certain level of greed is natural and even necessary.

I was simply pointing out that it was, in fact, the government [over there] that was the biggest problem.

 

[WillNever]

Is this a problem?

If public schools are funded with taxes, which they are, and ignoring the illegitimate nature of taxation, then don't the people funding the schools have a say in what is taught? Public or not, since it's funded with taxation then the majority gets to decide what is taught.

Of course, this is no surprise considering the problems of public property and public service.

Separation of church and state my friend. Not every Texan is a christian. Alienating people on the basis of the majority religion makes no sense. Read the fed papers some time. The founders of the USA did *not* intend that the majority bully the minorities through the sheer fact of the masses, as this is surely what is happening in Texas.

 

[Lori_7]

All people are greedy?

Even if, a certain level of greed is natural. Most people are also compassionate and decent and willing and wanting to co operate.

oh come on. what planet do you reside on? because when i look around me, and even at my own self, i see that people are not interested in the greater good. people are interested in getting their own at the expense of the greater good.

Right, but that wasn't my point; a certain level of greed is natural and even necessary.

I was simply pointing out that it was, in fact, the government [over there] that was the biggest problem.

necessary for what?

and our government is a great example of what i'm talking about. you can have a system that is idealistically good and beneficial. the problem is that the people within the system are inherently corrupt, and the system will fail.

 

[WillNever]

Okay, just read this whole thread.

Some of you have got to get it through your heads that democracy in the USA is not supposed to be based on the majority voting away the rights of minorities. A lot of them are enumerated right in our constitution. One of these safeguards is called the establishment clause, and those of you who don't know American history or the history of our supreme court need to look at it. The standing decision today, in so many words, is that it isn't the business of the government to be spreading religious beliefs in school. Public schools have a secular purpose, not a religious one.

We have parochial schools for those who want their kids to be indoctrinated.

 

[Norsefire]

oh come on. what planet do you reside on? because when i look around me, and even at my own self, i see that people are not interested in the greater good. people are interested in getting their own at the expense of the greater good.

Plenty of people are interested in co operation and helping others, even if out of self interest.

necessary for what?

Progress

and our government is a great example of what i'm talking about. you can have a system that is idealistically good and beneficial. the problem is that the people within the system are inherently corrupt, and the system will fail.

Precisely why authoritarian systems are undesirable; thus, capitalism is best.

 

[Lori_7]

Plenty of people are interested in co operation and helping others, even if out of self interest.

and the results of which are where to be found?

Progress

of what? in what direction?

Precisely why authoritarian systems are undesirable; thus, capitalism is best.

the people within capitalistic systems are just as corrupt as the people in authoritarian systems.

 

[jpappl]

The standing decision today, in so many words, is that it isn't the business of the government to be spreading religious beliefs in school. Public schools have a secular purpose, not a religious one.

Correct and let's hope it stays that way. It's not just to protect the non-religious from the religious, but the religious from each other.

We have parochial schools for those who want their kids to be indoctrinated.

Precisely.

 

[Enmos]

but it is not my responsibility to make their mind up for them.

Exactly. It's not the schools business either.

 

[Norsefire]

and the results of which are where to be found?

All around you.

of what? in what direction?

Capital, and technology.

I like to stay away from ambiguous terms like "cultural progress" or "social progress" because these are extremely subjective.

the people within capitalistic systems are just as corrupt as the people in authoritarian systems.

I never said otherwise; there's a lesser capacity for damage and abuse, however, since people are not granted monopolistic power.

Correct and let's hope it stays that way. It's not just to protect the non-religious from the religious, but the religious from each other.

Wrong.

Public schooling is education; education that is funded by the masses. Therefore the masses get to have a say in what is taught. Otherwise it is even more unfair than it already is.

Precisely.

Actually they'll be indoctrinated in state schools just like in religious schools; indoctrinated to obey the state, to believe in the state, to be loyal to the state, to have a one-sided view of history

 

[Lori_7]

Exactly. It's not the schools business either.

Give the kids some credit enmos.

 

[WillNever]

The post by me that he is quoting IS correct, Norsefire. The Supreme Court of the USA has already decided that it is not the business of the government to spread religious beliefs. This was decided in the 1960's, during the so-called Warren Court era, when Chief Justice Earl Warren was making a series of liberal decisions that improved our country a great deal. We owe the integration of race in our schools in large part to him.

I know that you aren't an American, and so you aren't learned in these things like we are... but that IS the standing decision today. Coming from a religious police state, you may find this all hard to comprehend... but we in the USA have designed our government's purpose to be secular, not religious, and our public schools are an extension of the state. We the people of the USA could not change our government in a way that makes religion into policy, because there is a clause in our constitution called the establishment clause, which prevents Congress from "making any law respecting an establishment of religion."

Check it out some time. Also, our public schools are FAR from being brainwashing zones that command strict obedience to the state. People tend to think that our schools promote unruliness, instead. If you'd gone through high school in the USA, you would know that.

 

[blackfoundations]

How do you create a thread?

 

[Baron Max]

Exactly. It's not the schools business either.

It's the school's business to teach knowledge. Whether you believe in god or not, you surely must know that religion plays a major part in our society as well as that of most other societies on Earth. Knowledge about those religions is most certainly important ...not to believe, but to know and be able to communicate with other people of the world.

See? It is the business of the schools to teach "about" religions. Hiding that knowledge from the kids is a freakin' crime ...or should be.

Baron Max

 

[WillNever]

But Baron, the people in the above article are not just interested in teaching *about* religion. They actually want to PREACH religion, by changing the curriculum so that (quote) "it reflects the fact that the US Constitution was written with God in mind including that "there is a fixed moral law derived from God and nature", that "there is a creator" and "government exists primarily to protect God-given rights to every individual."

Besides teaching that God exists, and that God is the source of moral law, the curriculum would also teach information that isn't even true. Saying that the Constitution was written with in God in mind is not quite correct. The most prominent founders, including Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and James Madison, were DEISTS, not christians, and they believed that God had long ago abandoned the Earth to its own devices. These idiots in Texas want to teach people a whole lot of nonsense, while having a complete lack of knowledge of the beliefs that the framers actually had.

Clearly, Texas is just a bunch of ignorant Southern goobers.