Help Me Understand This

[SkinWalker]

Do you want Americans to remain in the dark about Islam?

No. I want people to recognize Islam for what it is: a dangerous religion. Just as Christianity is dangerous. Just as all the monotheistic religions are dangerous.

Islam does promote death and destruction. It promotes hatred and narrow-minded thinking. It promotes bigotry and misogyny. It promotes prejudice and oppression.

But Christianity promotes the same things, often with the same myths just retold in a different set of words. The difference is that by and large, we've been successful in keeping Christianity out of government, whereas Islamic countries haven't.

I agree with you that Islam is dangerous. I just wanted to point out that it is a lie for you to say that you truly want to understand Islam. To understand Islam, you'll need to understand your own religion first. Now, with that statement, you probably verbalized the exclamation "what?", but I'm serious. You think you understand you religion, but until you see it for the delusion it truly is and recognize the hatred and narrow-minded perspective that your religious beliefs foster, you'll never truly understand it. You're caught on the inside and unable to take an objective an unbiased view of your own religious cult beliefs. You accept them as unquestioned fact, refusing to subject them to the barest of inquiry.

Then you look at a competing cult and imply it to be problematic and false all the while lying to us that you truly want to understand it. That, my dear, is a joke.

 

[sandy]

How is Christianity dangerous? You have a group of people who go out into the world trying to get other people saved when they could be pagan hedonists instead. We're not sawing off people's heads and blowing up sh!t. We're not destroying a baby democracy in Iraq. I never said Christianity was perfect.

I was sincere in trying to understand Islam because I know a lot of people who despise it. But I am done asking questions. I don't know why I bothered. But I will tell you if that is how all Americans who ask questions are treated, then you can understand why they hate/despise Islam.

 

[iceaura]

85% disapprove/refuse to approve Bush.

89% are democrat/independent. 11% claim to be Republicans.

In the 2000 elections, Grover Norquist put together a base of support for W among American Muslims. It was based on

W promising (in the second debate) to avoid "profiling" in the anti-terrorism efforts (Clinton had identified certain Muslim groups as the key terrorist threat to the US, and was profiling in an effort to curb their funding and other activities. Gore was viewed with suspicion by most Muslims, as closely connected to Clinton's anti-Muslim policies)

and W promising (again in the second debate) to never use secret evidence in prosecuting Muslim terrorist suspects.

These promises were big news, widely spread among US Muslims. They had been deliberately planted in the debate comments by Republican campaign analysts who had the Muslims figured out (Norquist et al).

W also appeared less favorably disposed to Jews, and had deep family, business, and personal relationships with Saudi Arabia - although that government was and is despised, nevertheless these relationships compared favorably against Gore's Jewish support.

So W got the US Muslim vote in 2000 - he got, for example, over 90% of the Muslim vote in Florida (Nader got 8%, Gore got 1%). About 50,000 votes, according to Craig Unger in "House of Bush, House of Saud".

So what happened? Well, he broke all those promises and then some, and he set up Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, and he destroyed Iraq while abusing its citizenry, and he backed the Jews in Lebanon and Palestine, and so forth.

 

[sandy]

If anyone ever believed we would stop profiling, I have this nice little bridge to sell you.

 

[James R]

sandy:

Let's compare.

Why do 25% of American muslims support suicide bombings to defend their religion?

Would you support violence to defend Christianity?

Why do 60% think the 911 murderers were not muslims/refuse to answer?

Why do some Americans think 911 was a government conspiracy?

82% think of themselves as muslims first, not Americans.

Do you think of yourself as Christian first, or American?

83% want bigger government/hand outs.

85% disapprove/refuse to approve Bush.

89% are democrat/independent. 11% claim to be Republicans.

You realise that these views are hardly restricted to Muslims, don't you?

Many Christians, though not you of course, want better government programmes (which you in your bias characterise as "handouts"), disapprove of Bush (though not you in your Republicanism) etc.

 

[Ophiolite]

82% think of themselves as muslims first, not Americans.

I think of myself as human first, then as a primate, then a geologist, a parent, a lover of fine wines, a husband, a keen SF fan, a Scot, an ex-mud logger, a good teacher, a European, a devout agnostic, a traveller,etc

Why do you have to tie your identity so strongly to a country?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

I'm serious. I'm trying to understand Islam (the religion of peace.)

Sandy, I applaud your desire to understand :bravo:
It is almost impossible to see through the other people's eyes - but that shouldn't stop us trying:

Why do 25% of American muslims support suicide bombings to defend their religion?

I suspect they see suicide bombers much as you or I might see American/British soldiers who make the 'ultimate sacrifice' for God and Country. Imagine if the USA was under threat of invasion or already occupied by foreign troops supporting a puppet government. Would you want to fight back?

Why do 60% think the 911 murderers were not muslims/refuse to answer?

Islam is basically a peaceful (and if anything rather prim) religion. Are the KKK Christian? Were the bombers in Northern Ireland Christian?

65% immigrated here but don't like us or the USA.

The early Christians lived in Rome, yet despised the sexual promiscuity and corruption of Roman culture (see Paul's letter to the Romans). America and the West is the modern day Rome. Many devout muslims are similarly appalled by our sexual promiscuity, corruption (Enron etc.) and amoral way of life. As a devout Christian you may have some sympathy with that view...

82% think of themselves as muslims first, not Americans.

If you went to live in Saudi Arabia, would you think of yourself as a Saudi, or an American Christian living in Saudi? Our identity is part of us and not easily changed!

26% refuse to assimilate. 39% of the younger ones.

Younger muslims seem less keen on integration than first generation. Jews also have always kept themselves a discrete minority, and refused to integrate, yet many of the most talented, influential and powerful people in the US are jewish. Perhaps they want to preserve their own culture, values and religion. Would you try to preserve your culture, values and religion in a foreign land?

75% oppose our war on terror.

As a result of the "War on Terror" many of their compatriots are imprisoned without trial in Guantanamo Bay. There have been allegations of torture, but no-one is allowed to visit. Do you support your government doing this?

32% have a favorable/refuse to answer view of alQaeda

I suspect some muslims see alQaeda as a resistance movement for the underdogs, fighting the global spread of Western culture e.g. MacDonalds, Coca-Cola etc. and other multinationals. More children aged 4 in the US recognise "Ronald MacDonald" than recognise a picture of Jesus.

There's also the actual invasion of Afganistan and Iraq by US and British troops. We also place sanctions on Iran for developing nuclear technology, while stockpiling nuclear weapons ourselves. We agressively police the World in our own interests! alQaeda is seen to fight back. We honour the French resistance in fighting against Nazi occupation. Many Americans supported the IRA in it's armed struggle in Ireland. it's not so very different.

83% want bigger government/hand outs.
85% disapprove/refuse to approve Bush.
89% are democrat/independent. 11% claim to be Republicans.

To oppose Bush, or to be a Democrat/Independant is not unpatriotic or un-American!
Being among the poorest in society, wanting more financial assistance is also not surprising. If you were poor, ill educated, struggling to support a family, would you not want more Government assistance?

An interesting exercise is to try and argue from the opposite point of view e.g. that of a muslim. If you allow yourself to get into role, the world can look very different!

 

[Ophiolite]

Excellent, thoughtful and thought provoking post.

 

[Nasor]

I'm serious. I'm trying to understand Islam (the religion of peace.)

No offense, but I this isn't hard to understand. You shouldn't be having trouble with it.

A new Pew Research Poll shows interesting facts about surveyed American muslims.

Why do 25% of American muslims support suicide bombings to defend their religion?

I suspect that at least 25% of the Christians living in the US would support dying to defend Christianity. I believe Christians usually refer to people who do it as "martyrs".

Why do 60% think the 911 murderers were not muslims/refuse to answer?

I'm sure that if a group of people claiming to be Christians killed thousands of innocent people, Christians everywhere would be shouting that they "weren't really Christians".

65% immigrated here but don't like us or the USA.

Presumably they still like it more than wherever they came from. Also, I'm sure that a larger percentage of Christians would say that they don't like much about the US at the moment.

82% think of themselves as muslims first, not Americans.

I'm sure that about the same percentage of Christians in the US would say that they think of themselves as Christians first and Americans second.

75% oppose our war on terror.

About the same percentage of Americans oppose the war on terror.

32% have a favorable/refuse to answer view of alQaeda.

The fact that they lump "favorable" in with "refuse to answer" makes me very suspicious. What percentage actually said “favorable”?

85% disapprove/refuse to approve Bush.

Bush's approval rating is about 28% right now. This is only slightly worse than average.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Stop the front. You're being hateful and *not* asking sincere questions. You've cherry-picked what you consider to be faults and listed them in the form of questions.

To expect that those that read and post in this forum wouldn't recognize your true intentions is to insult their intelligence.

i second that, its not hard to see through.

peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I think of myself as human first, then as a primate, then a geologist, a parent, a lover of fine wines, a husband, a keen SF fan, a Scot, an ex-mud logger, a good teacher, a European, a devout agnostic, a traveller,etc

Why do you have to tie your identity so strongly to a country?

lol you think of yourself as a geologist before a parent and a husband?

sorry kids and loving partner, but this rock comes first. and very sorry wife but the wine comes first again.


peace.

 

[Exploradora]

If you conducted this poll with the general American public you would find similar results. This poll was unscientifically done as it did not provide for a control. Thus it's not worth talking about. How many Christians consider themselves Christian first and American second. I consider myself to be a humanist, feminist, artist, sister, daughter, and friend before I consider myself to be an American. Many American Muslims have been here since we stole them from west Africa and forced them to work on plantations.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

If you conducted this poll with the general American public you would find similar results. This poll was unscientifically done as it did not provide for a control. Thus it's not worth talking about. How many Christians consider themselves Christian first and American second. I consider myself to be a humanist, feminist, artist, sister, daughter, and friend before I consider myself to be an American. Many American Muslims have been here since we stole them from west Africa and forced them to work on plantations.

is it true that most femanists are lesbians?


peace.

 

[Exploradora]

is it true that most femanists are lesbians?


peace.

As true as bra burning.

 

[geeser]

and whats wrong with being a lesbian, I like everything they like, so I'm a lesbian too.

 

[Nasor]

Ok, after actually reading the document that sandy linked to, it's clear that she was pulling some major shenanigans with her summery of the results.

Why do 25% of American muslims support suicide bombings to defend their religion?

Actually, the study never says this! According to the study, 83% said that suicide bombings were never justified and 9% said "don't know," with just 8% saying that they were "sometimes" justified.

65% immigrated here but don't like us or the USA.

Where did you get this statistic from? Certainly not from the study you linked to, because again, the study never says this!. The study asked if they "are satisfied with the current state of the US?" There's a big difference between saying "I hate America" and saying "I hate the current state of America." Also, only 54% of respondents said that they were dissatisfied. Somehow you magically changed that to 65%. It's especially interesting that you forgot to mention that according to the study, 61% of the general population said they are dissatisfied with the current state of the US - meaning that the muslims are actually more satisfied than most people! But you had to leave that out because it wouldn’t fit into your little rant, right?

82% think of themselves as muslims first, not Americans.

Can anyone out there guess what's coming? Yes, that's right the study never says this. According to the study 60% of muslims under 29 think of themselves as muslims first, and 41% of muslims over 30 think of themselves as muslims first. Where the hell did you get 82%?

75% oppose our war on terror.

No, the study never says this! It says that 75% oppose the war in Iraq - which I hope you realize is not the same as the "war on terror".

83% want bigger government/hand outs.

Man, I'm running out of ways to say it - is there a way to make text blink on here? Anyway, as you might have guessed, the study does not say this - it says that 73% responded affirmative to the question "Should the government do more to aid the poor?"

Anyway, there appear to be only two possible explanations here:
1. Sandy is a complete moron who is unable to read and understand simple charts.
2. Sandy is deliberately lying and didn't think anyone would both the actually read the study that she linked to.

Either way she's a joke, and so is this thread.

 

[Balerion]

She's deliberately making these things up. There's no way she's really this stupid. The way the numbers were fudged is a deliberate deception.

 

[sandy]

Bull. Read the complete report, not the Cliff's notes. Do the math. Add up the numbers.
People are talking about this survey. They are dismayed.

 

[phlogistician]

Bull. Read the complete report, not the Cliff's notes. Do the math. Add up the numbers.
People are talking about this survey. They are dismayed.

Look you got busted, accept Nasor totally pwns you, learn to live with it.

 

[geeser]

So Sandy I quote."There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics by Benjamin Disraeli, but popularised by samuel clemens (mark twain)
blatant dishonesty.
naughty girl.