"Hello, is there anybody in there...?" A call to pagans, pantheists, and assorted...
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davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
In this religion does spirit = energy?
If so is the spirit one big thing that everything is part of?
So there is no real personality, because everything is one?
If so is the spirit one big thing that everything is part of?
So there is no real personality, because everything is one?
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Why not both and? There is both individuality and participation.
OK.:shrug: In another context I might agree. I made a distinction for the purpose of this thread.
Sorry, no. Too much typing.
I'll link to the posts, Sa va?
I got that. lol
The main difference that I see is the way we use some words.
I don't think a grain of sand "has consciousness and preferences" but 'Sand' as in all sand or as a subset of Silica...? I couldn't say...
In an infinite universe ALL things are possible. :shrug:
I do know that, as I've stated elsewhere, fact and fiction have a way of trading places now and again. Hummm?
I wasn't making accusations, just a blanket, generic statement.
Forgive me if that was not clear.
I get annoyed when people throw around loaded, vague words like spirit, soul and energy without defining what they mean.
Not only does it make communication difficult and riddled with misunderstandings, but it allows people to swivel and swerve out of what they said when confronted with contradictory points of view.
Also, without defining such vague words, which carry a lot of religious, cultural and personal baggage, one may as well not be saying anything at all.
Say what you mean and mean what you say - without defining loaded words, you can't do that effectively. Comunication suffers as a result.
Congratulations. You can quote a limited, abridged "dictionary" citation.
pagan
c.1375, from L.L. paganus "pagan," in classical L. "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (see pact). Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908. Paganism is attested from 1433.
Source
There is a world of difference between denotation and connotation - not to mention taking context into consideration.
"Pagans" refer to theselves as such in a religious context.
"What religion are you?" "I'm a Pagan."
What is the source of the religious context of the word pagan? It was applied to non-Christians by Christians.
Oh KMA. :bugeye:
Well, I realize the dictionary that came installed is no OED, but it's easy to 'copy paste', and it's better then many on word origin. And it's basically the same as yours. Also, I cut some out; here's a complete:
Apparently you completely missed my point.
The term pagan, as applied to religious beliefs, was coined by Christians to apply to non-Christians.
Therefor, when someone asks your religion and you respond "I'm a pagan" you are responding, "I'm not Christian".
The term pagan, as applied to religious beliefs, was coined by Christians to apply to non-Christians.
Therefor, when someone asks your religion and you respond "I'm a pagan" you are responding, "I'm not Christian".
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
This seems like the key part of the not so limited, unabridged definition of 'pagan'. Admittedly it is using an outsider term. Practically it works pretty well.
If it works well for you, that's fine.
It doesn't work well for me at all, and I was trying to explain why I would never respond to the question, "What religion are you?" with the answer, "I'm pagan", because the derrivation of the term is one that was coined by Christians to mean "not Christian" and it was a derrogatory term at that.
It happens sometimes that a group will adopt a the word used by other folks to put the first group down, Anarchist is one such label.
And the word pagan does pre-date christianity.
Anyway, it's not my 'word of choice'. Like I said I've never planted crops, raised livestock or any number of rural type of occupations. I'm more of a city boy. If I were to leave city type environs, I'd head for the forested mountains, not the farm.
I say I'm Wiccan, or Pantheist. When I do use the word 'pagan' it's for expediency.
Enmos,
As to how i define magic: I guess I'd say it's using one's will to direct and shape one's life; also, using will to direct consciousness, and connect to the 'universal' or nature. It also works with or dovetails the concept of following one's 'Tao'.
Try rereading posts 213, 275, 277, 280 and let me know if that helps.
And the word pagan does pre-date christianity.
Anyway, it's not my 'word of choice'. Like I said I've never planted crops, raised livestock or any number of rural type of occupations. I'm more of a city boy. If I were to leave city type environs, I'd head for the forested mountains, not the farm.
I say I'm Wiccan, or Pantheist. When I do use the word 'pagan' it's for expediency.
Enmos,
As to how i define magic: I guess I'd say it's using one's will to direct and shape one's life; also, using will to direct consciousness, and connect to the 'universal' or nature. It also works with or dovetails the concept of following one's 'Tao'.
Try rereading posts 213, 275, 277, 280 and let me know if that helps.
lol
You are a Wiccan right ?
To what extent do you worship nature ? And do gods come into it ?
Okay...here we go...
I use the term Pagan, but I say that I have 'Wiccan' leanings. Why do I do this? The term 'pagan' is extremely broad and I like it that way most of the time, but if I am going to pick, say, my own sort of 'rules' or 'commandments' that I live by, I would say much of what Wicca preaches "moral" wise...I'm cool with it. For example, Wicca might say 'and if it harm none, do what thou will' (This I agree with), but several other 'pagan' sects might live by that same rule as well. I can't claim them all, people still think I'm a Satanist when I say Pagan and an air head if I say Wiccan, so I like to claim both together in hopes, at some point, they will even each other out
. The point is, I say Pagan mostly because any number of things I believe could fall under any number of different pagan sects, but people who know nothing about what 'pagan' means, best understand me when I say 'Wiccan'...or they try too, anyway.Do I agree with all the theology of Wicca? No. Not at all. I like their moral code, I feel it suits me, but as for gods and goddesses...I see them as symbols...representations of life that I understand. I say I believe in a God and Goddess, because I believe in life and the Earth and obviously there is man and woman in both. Therefore, they are both important. Do I believe there is actually God and Goddess sittin' around, dictating life, pointing their fingers and pushing us around...I would have to say no. If there is something "higher", something "greater" in the terms of what we know to be God/dess, I won't claim to understand it...or fathom it.
Just an example: if I say I "worship" the goddess Diana, I mean I worship what she represents...I might aspire to the qualities attributed to her, but do I really believe Diana, the Goddess, is hanging around listening to me blather away? No. It's a way to focus my thoughts in order to attain what I hope to attain. Obviously, not everyone goes about things this way and some might think I'm fucking crazy, but this my reality, this is the way I do things
.In the end, I worship being alive, here on Earth. One day I might just go outside, listen to the wind, enjoy the sunshine, admire the birds and bees and another day I might just get a crazy feeling in my head and go dance naked in the rain just because I can. To enjoy being alive, to celebrate it anyway I want, is worship enough for me. We only get one life, as far as I know, and so I think then that the life we get is sacred and so is everything that makes up that life...even the bad things. Therefore, the ground under my feet, the damn rocks, the trees, the sun, the moon, the wind etc...all effect my life in some way good or bad and I'm going to cherish every minute of it the best I can.
That is the best I can do for you right now.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
But on what grounds did you make the distinction, explain to me why please.
Apparently you redefined "life" for this particular context.
Can you please give both your definition of "alive" and "has life" in this context ?
Yes, and I need to know that you mean "b" (my definition) when you say "a" (your definition). Without an explanation I naturally assume you mean "a" (my definition) when you say "a" (your definition).
Confused again.. :bawl:
I pretty much openly ignored the "has preferences" part in all my previous replies and it didn't seem to bother Simon at all.
I ignored it because I didn't have a clue as to what he meant with it.
Maybe you can explain a bit ?
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Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Damn.. you guys are confusing.. lolOkay...here we go...
I use the term Pagan, but I say that I have 'Wiccan' leanings. Why do I do this? The term 'pagan' is extremely broad and I like it that way most of the time, but if I am going to pick, say, my own sort of 'rules' or 'commandments' that I live by, I would say much of what Wicca preaches "moral" wise...I'm cool with it. For example, Wicca might say 'and if it harm none, do what thou will' (This I agree with), but several other 'pagan' sects might live by that same rule as well. I can't claim them all, people still think I'm a Satanist when I say Pagan and an air head if I say Wiccan, so I like to claim both together in hopes, at some point, they will even each other out
Do I agree with all the theology of Wicca? No. Not at all. I like their moral code, I feel it suits me, but as for gods and goddesses...I see them as symbols...representations of life that I understand. I say I believe in a God and Goddess, because I believe in life and the Earth and obviously there is man and woman in both. Therefore, they are both important. Do I believe there is actually God and Goddess sittin' around, dictating life, pointing their fingers and pushing us around...I would have to say no. If there is something "higher", something "greater" in the terms of what we know to be God/dess, I won't claim to understand it...or fathom it.
Just an example: if I say I "worship" the goddess Diana, I mean I worship what she represents...I might aspire to the qualities attributed to her, but do I really believe Diana, the Goddess, is hanging around listening to me blather away? No. It's a way to focus my thoughts in order to attain what I hope to attain. Obviously, not everyone goes about things this way and some might think I'm fucking crazy, but this my reality, this is the way I do things.
In the end, I worship being alive, here on Earth. One day I might just go outside, listen to the wind, enjoy the sunshine, admire the birds and bees and another day I might just get a crazy feeling in my head and go dance naked in the rain just because I can. To enjoy being alive, to celebrate it anyway I want, is worship enough for me. We only get one life, as far as I know, and so I think then that the life we get is sacred and so is everything that makes up that life...even the bad things. Therefore, the ground under my feet, the damn rocks, the trees, the sun, the moon, the wind etc...all effect my life in some way good or bad and I'm going to cherish every minute of it the best I can.
That is the best I can do for you right now.
So you are basically an atheist that worships nature ? Sounds like me..
w1z4rd
Valued Senior Member
Sorry to go back to the original post.. but... Wiccans are _not_ pantheist.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Hmm to be honest I'm not that interested in your definition of "magic" anymore
I will respond to your definition here with a few short questions:
- Using one's will to direct ans shape life is kind of what everyone does. Does everyone use magic then, according to you ?
- What do you mean when you say "using will to direct consciousness" ?
- What do you mean when you say "using will to connect to the 'universal' or nature" ? And what is the "universal" ?
- I thought that consciousness was all, or all has consciousness. Has consciousness = has life ?
Our differences seem to revolve around defining life, and the "alive" vs "has life" thing.- What do you mean when you say "using will to direct consciousness" ?
- What do you mean when you say "using will to connect to the 'universal' or nature" ? And what is the "universal" ?
- I thought that consciousness was all, or all has consciousness. Has consciousness = has life ?
Would you consider yourself an atheist ? In other words, do you believe in actual gods or not ?
Damn.. you guys are confusing.. lol
So you are basically an atheist that worships nature ? Sounds like me..
Haha! Yes, we're a confusing lot of people who can't agree on a damn thing unless we stumble upon on a moral code or some supreme being in common...or you belong to a coven or group that all worships the same.
I can't say I'm truly an athiest. I think...I think or I believe...there is something...I'm unsure of what yet, and how to explain it...so I won't try for the sake of sounding confused and idiotic...
Maybe I'll figure it out when I die...or not. After all, death is the last great adventure!
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Haha! Yes, we're a confusing lot of people who can't agree on a damn thing unless we stumble upon on a moral code or some supreme being in common...or you belong to a coven or group that all worships the same.
I can't say I'm truly an athiest. I think...I think or I believe...there is something...I'm unsure of what yet, and how to explain it...so I won't try for the sake of sounding confused and idiotic...
Maybe I'll figure it out when I die...or not. After all, death is the last great adventure!
But you don't believe in gods, as you said..
I think she lacks a positive beleief in any specific god(dess), is the point.
Yes. How to explain a feeling without giving it a name that will force people to pretend to understand or ridicule or misinterpret? I can't...so I won't. One Raven, you're totally my Kung Fu Master
LOL.(And dammit, this is totally off topic, but I'm trying to watch this stupid movie that is probably totally stupid online and stupid youku.com sucks!)
Sorry; that was my rant for the day
Enmos
Valued Senior Member