Heaven?

[Conspiracy]

Do you think heaven exists? Part of me likes thinking of the fact I might live in eternal paridise. However I think the concept of Heaven is based on Man's fear of mortality.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

It seems to me that some people are afraid of death. Some people are afraid of everlasting death. Some people are afraid of life. Some people are afraid of everlasting life. Some people just don't care. Is the concept of heaven a by-product of one of these fears? Possibly, but not necessarily. It could be the product of hope. Hope is not the flip side of fear, as some might suggest, despair is, and courage is the flip side of fear. So, hoping in heaven isn't the same as fearing death. It could also simply be the product of logic, depending on the initial presumed premises.

 

[Godless]

Heaven or Hell, represents two other forms of existence in some other dimension, to accept such a concept is rather silly when no proof of any other existence can be found or explained in scientific manner. Thus it's all made up ancient rhetorical bs, to support those who want to sell the god concept, by fear. Fear of death, fear of hell if one were not to follow their doctrines.

Godless

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

That is the logic you set forth, which also rests on presumed premises.

 

[Godless]

Not really. The unacceptability of a heaven or hell, is not a presumed premise. It's a rather a good observation at reality as is. This existence exists. And that's an axiom. However to presume some other existence exists, and the only way to reach it is through death is a false hope. It's the fear of death, that drove primitive consciousness to not accept death as final. So the invention of another dimension was thoughtout. First by the ancient Egyptians, who thought they would keep their earthly possesions in another life, then copied by Hebbrews and other civilizations who's idea were similar to the survival of death. The creation of the soul, a spirit that would survive death, had to have some place to go. So a place of bliss for those who follow the laws of gods, and a hell fire damnation for those that don't.

All of it based on mythology, and not anything that can be emperically proven. So the presumption of heaven and hell lies within the believers of such fary tales, not the individual who only acerts that such things are not likely to be so. the onus of proof always lies on those making the assertions.

Godless

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

Yes... heaven exists... The God plane.. where God lives...

God who applied the energy for creation.

-MT

 

[Einstuck]

That was awesome Mosheh!

 

[Cris]

Sure heaven exists. Well it will exist. Or maybe it might exist one day.

It all depends on how well we can pull ourselves together and solve a few problems, like how not to die for a start.

 

[KennyJC]

Heaven for me, demonstrates the utmost stupidity of religion. It tells me that all religions are based on selfish wishful thinking. If you believe in heaven you will believe in anything... Which is why religious people do believe the stupidest of baseless things.

We die, thats what happens. Accept it.

 

[tablariddim]

-MT

ok....

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yes... heaven exists... The God plane.. where God lives...

God who applied the energy for creation.

*************
M*W: The energy needed for creation came from the sun. Why must you people continue to call the sun's creative force of energy God?

 

[Cyperium]

Do you think heaven exists? Part of me likes thinking of the fact I might live in eternal paridise. However I think the concept of Heaven is based on Man's fear of mortality.

Most people think that heaven is in the sky.


The kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17

The Coming of the Kingdom of God

20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."



and:

22 Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

I would say this regarding lifeforms...



And if you argue that life developed as a result of the suns applied energy...

one must ask.. why does light and all electromagnetic energy follow specific patterns of behavior?
i.e.. there is a common universal design... there are universal laws...
laws set forth at creation.....

laws which are dictated by the applied energy, and so the source of that energy.

and we as life forms.. are, especially in the brain... electrical in nature.

and electronics teaches us that T=CR and assuming our resistance to a so called heaven was low.. then all we require is the potential to.. as energy.. transcend any distance and as such.... potentially leave our space and return to the original source of energy... as now.. as souls.. qualitively changed...

i.e... God made the universe... and all things... by the application of energy that followed mathamatical precision and resulted in our universe...

predestining the formation of life forms on planets, and in the end.. collecting back the crude energy originally applied... collects back that energy as Jewels in the form of souls... the life and memories of good Godly people...

who make themselves worthy by being good.. and having memories which God may wish to collect and preserve...

i.e.. God doesnt want memories of raping and murdering.. and theiving...

the people with an over abundance of bad memories ... are not collected.
and what happens to their energy is simple...
it is lost into deep space as wave energy... purgatory.
or it is converted into HEAT... due to entropy. HELL.

-MT

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Not really. The unacceptability of a heaven or hell, is not a presumed premise.

I didn't call that the presumed premise.

It's a rather a good observation at reality as is.

Deciding that something is unacceptable isn't an observation. It's a judgement. A judgement which is, of course, based on premises. If you haven't thought out the premises when making the judgement, then the premises are presumed. For example, thinking "there is no evidence, so there is not god." requires an intermediate premise, one that most people presume. The premise is "if there is no evidence for x, then x doesn't exist." Of course, this premise is true, but what one has to remember is that the original judgement "there is no evidence, so there is no god" is an incomplete statement. The full statement is this "humans have as yet not produced any physically tangible and testable evidence for god, therefore there is no god." Of course, this also is missing some intermediate premises, such as "evidence that is not testable, not physically tangible, is not acceptable evidence." And, "if p (humans) has not produced acceptible evidence x (god), then x (god) does not exist."

Of course, any amatuer logician can see the invalidity of such an argument. At best, all one can do is say that asserting the existence of a god is baseless for a human to do. It is a logical error to say that god does not exist for lack of evidence, since just because evidence has not been produced, does not mean that there does not exist evidence. If one asserts that it is unreasonable to assert the existence of god, then it is also unreasonable (though, arguably to a lesser degree) to assert that there is no god.

At any rate, claiming that stating the unaccepability of a god concept is a good observation of reality as is, is entirely false.

This existence exists. And that's an axiom.

Thank you Ayn. As if that wasn't the most obvious thing ever to be said.

However to presume some other existence exists, and the only way to reach it is through death is a false hope.

Who said it's an existence apart from this? I don't recall such a claim. I expect that if heaven and hell exist, they're entirely part of this universe. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you could experience levels of heaven and hell here on earth, as they should be considered more as states than "locations."

It's the fear of death, that drove primitive consciousness to not accept death as final.

Wait... what's your proof for this? Or should I just take your word for it?

So the invention of another dimension was thoughtout.

Gee, for a man who so highly demands evidence for assertions, you're sorely lacking here.

First by the ancient Egyptians, who thought they would keep their earthly possesions in another life, then copied by Hebbrews and other civilizations who's idea were similar to the survival of death.

I'm surprised at you, Godless. I expected more rationality from someone who praises it so highly. Seriously, you didn't expect me to miss your logic errors did you? Let's see, first off, it is merely our archaeological record that shows that Egypt was the earliest known peoples to express beliefs in an afterlife. Just because we lack any further evidence, doesn't mean we just say, "OH! I guess that means they were the first!" Since writing didn't develop until the same general period, we can't look toward textual sources to find out if there was any earlier beliefs regarding an afterlife. As far as architecture goes, burial compounds appeared slightly earlier than writing, both of which were developments of settlement and urban beginnings. What burial grounds suggest is an early form of ancestor worship. So, as far as the EVIDENCE goes (which by the way is highly interpretive), the idea of an undying spirit existed long prior to ancient Egypt. And even if the evidence didn't suggest that, prior to settlement, humans were thought to be hunter/gatherers and nomadic. In this case, no evidence of their belief systems would be left for us to find anyway, and it is highly speculative to suggest that Egypt was the origin of religious thought (ie, god, spirits, afterlife, etc..).

The creation of the soul, a spirit that would survive death, had to have some place to go.

Assuming the bogus reasoning that you have presented above is actually true, which you have as yet provided no evidence for.

So a place of bliss for those who follow the laws of gods, and a hell fire damnation for those that don't.

If you actually spent any time at all researching and studying deep theology on religious moral laws and the psychology associated with heaven and hell in consideration of those moral laws, you'd know that this statement is made out of a fundamental lacking in understanding of religious moral teaching. To summarize what could easily be a volumous study, moral laws of god and moral laws of nature are expected and believed to be aligned and in unison. Since humans are creatures of natural law, breaking such laws should logically result in self-damage. Since humans are creatures of habit, humans can get entrenched in actions which go against natural moral laws, which means they are entrenched in activities that are self-damaging. Hell is meant to represent the reality of this self-torment and destruction, but on an eternal and superlative scale (of course, this is what your real beef is with, the eternality of it, which would first require you to believe in a soul, but given that one accepts the reality of the soul, this can be shown to progress logically). Heaven is the flip side, the state of health, produced by habitually acting morally, in line with human nature and natural moral laws. Such concepts don't just pop out of thin air, and weren't just "made up" to facilitate a conceptual need. Such concepts are a logical result of priorly accepted ideas.

All of it based on mythology, and not anything that can be emperically proven.

Again, I'm saddened by your lack of thought on the subject. The myths themselves contain the concepts of heaven and hell and souls, etc. Were the myths based on other myths? There must be a starting point for these concepts, and as much as you'd like to say "control of the masses," that simply isn't evidenced historically. Certainly, such concepts have been used in that way, but there is no evidence that that is their origin. In any case, myths are always based on something, and if the myths themselves contain the concepts that you claim are entirely based on myth, then they are actually not entirely based on myth. Surely you can see the logic of that. You might say, "then they were based on made up fairy tales." Of course, I would then say, prove it, which you will be unable to do, though you constantly insist on evidence and proof. The only thing you can offer is that "no evidence exists now, so it must have been made up." However, you're going on the assumption that what is real now is what has always been real. So, because of this assumption, you make the assertion. However, perhaps there once was evidence, and that evidence was widely accepted and common knowledge, and there was no need to write it down because nobody could ever have guessed that it would someday be questioned. Perhaps this evidence existed before writing. In any case, there are a whole host of possibilities which you simply dismiss. Hence, it is illogical to assert, on several accounts, that "all of it (is) based on mythology."

As far as "none of it can be empirically proven." Another assumption. More like "none of it HAS been empirically proven." If you would take any time at all to think about it, you'd realize your statement is circular: "It isn't true because it can't be empirically proven. It can't be empirically proven because it isn't true."

So the presumption of heaven and hell lies within the believers of such fary tales, not the individual who only acerts that such things are not likely to be so. the onus of proof always lies on those making the assertions.

Don't be rediculous. Presumptions lie on both sides. At least I'm willing to admit that. You're right though, the onus of proof does lie on those making assertions. Just as one asserts god, one may assert there is no god. In any case, evidence must be shown and tested for proof. At best, one can say he doesn't know. Where there is lack of evidence, nothing can be said. I have no evidence that aliens have visited this world. It seems unlikely, and most people would say it hasn't happened. Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean one can assert with complete certainty that it is the case that it hasn't happened. All it means is that it's unlikely. So, say that. Say you don't know, but don't believe so. That's the truth. Stop being so rediculous and saying that lack of evidence is enough to assert with full certainty non-existence. If you really are dedicated to truth, stop pretending. Admit the truth. You believe God doesn't exist. Present cases, arguments, etc... which might support your belief. But stop acting as if it is the absolute, entirely obvious, completely KNOWN truth, that God does not exist, when all you really can say about the matter is that based on lack of acceptible evidence it is unlikely that God exists. Crap!

Godless

 

[Godless]

Have a nice read;

click

Basically all made up bull shit from primitive mentality!.

Godless

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

I looked.. but all i found was biased opinion.. not fact.. not evidense.

-MT

 

[Godless]

Read the theory of Julian Jaynes mt. http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php

Godless

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

Thats nice.... and yes.. i would agree that crazyness had alot to due with religion and mystic stuff since the dawn of mans rise from the jungle.. some 70,000 years ago.

and does she discuss why?

the bottleneck? the fact that modern man evolved from what were less than 1000 humans.... and that it has been the lack of genetic diversity that has often times in history caused the birth of messed up people... in one way or another...

Abraham himself.. father of the Jews and Arabs... was born from incest.. and he heard voices.... and he lead his people.. who were small in number..
south into slavery at the hands of Pharohs...

so yeah.. alot of crazyness then and now...

but that still doesnt disprove pre-destiny.. does it?

cause the madness of abraham... allowed the Jews to flourish as Jews in a foreign land... and grow to large numbers... so many that one day.. Moses would have to set them free.

Mohammed also heard voices...

And Jesus supposively talked to God and the Devil....

we may even go so far as to suggest that drugs.. such as the psycodelic mushsrooms found around the world caused the birth of many religious views....
and the history of fungus would support such claims..

but it matters not.. since God created the Mushrooms.

The sources of religion in general matters not... the result is the same.

and usually thats good.. but of course.. men find ways to mess it up..
historically.. but thats not religions fault.. thats mans fault.

religion is a abstract thing.. it is ideas and thought.... and it saddens me when i hear people who are in a general sense.. Anti-religion.

they must have issues.

-MT

 

[duendy]

ahahhhhh, at LAST, someone else who acknowledges anceint use of psychedelic mushrooms....!

talking about Egypt for a moment. i dont know ifyou've noticed but some Christians here tend to talk about a 'lake of fire' an smugly relate how certain categories of people--not them of course--are gonna be flung in it for...eever and ever and ever

Actaully this mythic idea as far as i'velearned began in Egypt, BUT, their idea of it, andhell, was NOTeverlastin. it was the Christians who decided to punish the 'damned' for ever and ever.

the idea of eterna; heaven and eternal hell isreally polarity. it sows up believes based in unacknowledged duality, where thetwo polar xtremes become stasis

Modern consciousness research (Stanislav Grof ), and reports of NDEs, etcall shows that there exists potential subjective experiene of heavens and hells when our consciusnss is changed, through psychedelic inspiration, various experiential techniches like 'Holotropic Breathing', and NDEs, OBEs, various forms of psychological natrual heaing which our ignorant culture diagnoses as 'mental illness'......>So, a big hint is that te mythic idea of such states begin wit ctual experience. From which is presumed actual states

in our live we have up and down moements dont we, and different people have vrations of this, maybe deeper or more superficial. what tis means is is that thepotential for experience is dynamic and rounded. if there wasn't potential for ecstasy of joy ANDterror we wouodn't BE rounded would we....wouldn't be Whole. we'd be 2D!

 

[Qorl]

Watch movie The One.