why, what did adam and eve do, they were just toddlers{ infants ) in comparison.Yorda said:
it's a cruel/callous thing of this god, to give these infants an ice cream and punish them when they ate it.
as the did not know they were doing wrong.
Heaven + Free Will
- Thread starter Prester John
- Start date
it's a cruel/callous thing of this god, to give these infants an ice cream and punish them when they ate it.
as the did not know they were doing wrong.
the preacher said:
Adam and Eve had to leave the paradise because they got aware of their body. Intelligence took them away from paradise, but it's also the intelligence that will bring them back again. It seems like an evil thing, but that's how nature works, sometimes it seems cruel for us humans. But evil must exist so that we could know what is good, yet both of these exist only in our mind.
Yorda said:
Wow, where does it say that in the bible ? I thought it was because they ate an apple without knowledge of the consequences. If it was in their nature to do that then why were they made like that? The implication is that god knew that adam and eve would fail his standards. Mind you god doesn't seem to mind lying to us at all. Good luck with getting into heaven btw
Prester John said:
An Angel is a messenger from God that can either be a spirit or a glorified being. A glorified being is one that has a resurrected body.
Actually God did make a world without evil to begin with, but in order for us to truly understand the difference between good and evil we must have a chance to experience both. He intended Adam and Eve to fall but he had to do it in a way that it was their choice. Before Adam and Eve took the fruit they did know there would be consequences for it but would not have known the full implications of it. They did know that taking the fruit would mean disobeying God.
Prester John said:
Yeah, it's because they "ate" the "fruit". It's a parable, you know. You become what you eat. The Bible says that Adam and Eve saw their nakedness, which means that they became conscious of their body.
If it was in their nature to do that then why were they made like that? The implication is that god knew that adam and eve would fail his standards. Mind you god doesn't seem to mind lying to us at all. Good luck with getting into heaven btw
Um... I've never heard God tell any lies. Good luck with you too.
if your right thats entrapment, and a very cruel thing to do to an infant.Brutus1964 said:
however is god had made a fire of knowledge, instead of a tree with something edible on it, they would have been much less likely to touch it.
now you will say but he had to make it easy for them to fall, so let get to the main point why go to such an elabrate charade, when he could have put them there as if the apple was eaten.
and please dont say that it had to be there choice, thats just a crock, because it was not a choice.
example:
if I say to you goto new york and take any route you like, and then I block of ever route, but the one I want you to go down. where is your choice.
Yorda said:
So that would be your own interpretation of the story then,, the bible according to Yorda. Which other parts are parables, which are literal, how do you differentiate between them?
You might want to check out Ezekiel 14:9 btw
emphasis mine.
But they didn't know that disobeying god was evil. They didn't know what death was so they didn't know the consequences of disobeying god. For all they knew death was a party with 92 virgins
the preacher said:
Why would God have put the tree in the garden in the first place if he did not intend for them to take it? He put the tree there to offer them a choice. They could take the fruit and fall thus putting God's plan into motion, or they could have not taken the fruit and just lived in the garden forever alone in their ignorant, but blissful state. They had the choice. Notice that God did not put something in front of them that was inherently evil. It was the equivalent of a parent telling a child not to get into the cookie jar. It is wrong for a child to disobey it's parent but it is not evil. However to disobey God in any amount will cause you to fall. The only way back for Adam and Eve and any of us was to have someone who was spotless and sinless pay for our sins. That way Christ could forgive us of our sins and allow us back to God.
God could not just create Adam and Eve as fallen beings. How would that be right? They had to choose to fall on their own. Also, they were not infants. They new what they were doing they just did not have any experience with good or evil. They could not sin because there was nothing they could do in the garden to cause them to sin. That is why God put the tree their so they would have a way of making a choice.
Oh come on, he created them as beings who he knew would fall. Since you can only fall by disbeying god it would be imposiible to create fallwn beings anyway. Talk about a set up. I'm an athiest, god made me this way and gods gonna punish me for being this way! LOL.You said it yourself.
Why did god decide to put humanity through the immense suffering of the world when he could have created a world without evil from the beginning?
Prestor John
Yea he could have made us all automatons with no free will. We could never grow beyond that because we would never know the difference. Adam and Eve and all of us must learn for ourselves good and evil, pleasure and pain, joy and sorrow. We learn through experience. God wants us to experience and grow.
The Adam and Eve story is also an allegory for us. God created us as spotless sinless infants and then we are told not to sin. We are not perfect so we always will. Once we do we are cut off from God forever. However, Jesus Christ came down and atoned for our sins enabling us to become clean again and return to our Father in heaven.
Yea he could have made us all automatons with no free will. We could never grow beyond that because we would never know the difference. Adam and Eve and all of us must learn for ourselves good and evil, pleasure and pain, joy and sorrow. We learn through experience. God wants us to experience and grow.
The Adam and Eve story is also an allegory for us. God created us as spotless sinless infants and then we are told not to sin. We are not perfect so we always will. Once we do we are cut off from God forever. However, Jesus Christ came down and atoned for our sins enabling us to become clean again and return to our Father in heaven.
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Brutus1964 said:
No you said that we can have free will and not commit evil...
brutus; you've completely missed the point of the preachers post.
you keep going on about adam and eves choice, so I repeat what the preacher said using his example: if I say to you goto new york and take any route you like, and then I block of ever route, but the one I want you to go down. where is your choice.
you keep going on about adam and eves choice, so I repeat what the preacher said using his example: if I say to you goto new york and take any route you like, and then I block of ever route, but the one I want you to go down. where is your choice.
pavlosmarcos said:
Your choice would be to not go to New York at all.
Prester John said:
As glorified beings we can do that but not in our present mortal state. Christ was born part mortal and part glorified being to begin with, so he could go through life and not sin even with free will, but he could still die because of his mortal side.
How can you have free will and not sin. Well how many choices do you make in life that do not involve sinning? Many, in fact most of your choices are not a choice between good and evil at all.
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and we could have been made glorified in the beginning and avoided all this suffering and evil. or is that beyond gods capabilities?
There are two problems here at the moment both centered around free will.
1) It is possible for god to create beings with free will yet who chose to do no evil. Evil is therefore an optional extra that god decided to include in his universe. This is at odds with a benevolent interpretation of god.
2) Adam and Eve were doubly shafted. First they were made so that they would go wrong, then they were not made aware of what exactly was a wrong thing to do and the consequences of doing wrong. When they did what they were made to do, they were punished. They had neither free will nor the knowledge to guage the results of their actions. Again is this the behaviour of a benevolent being?
1) It is possible for god to create beings with free will yet who chose to do no evil. Evil is therefore an optional extra that god decided to include in his universe. This is at odds with a benevolent interpretation of god.
2) Adam and Eve were doubly shafted. First they were made so that they would go wrong, then they were not made aware of what exactly was a wrong thing to do and the consequences of doing wrong. When they did what they were made to do, they were punished. They had neither free will nor the knowledge to guage the results of their actions. Again is this the behaviour of a benevolent being?
your just being facetious, so let's put another way.
if you were being pushed in the direction of new york and you could take any route you liked, but then you find, all but I route blocked. where is your choice.
if they had a choice, not to touch the fruit, they could have left eden, oh wait a minute they could'nt do that either.
if you were being pushed in the direction of new york and you could take any route you liked, but then you find, all but I route blocked. where is your choice.
brutus said:
in your own word he had to put the temptation there. and force them to goto it.brutus said:
if they had a choice, not to touch the fruit, they could have left eden, oh wait a minute they could'nt do that either.
Adam and eve had only two choices. Stay in the garden forever alone. This was not God’s plan. Or eat the fruit and fall allowing them to become mortal and have mortal children. They chose the latter and the rest is history.
You could ask then why didn't God just tell them to eat the fruit so they would become mortal? There really was nothing special about the fruit itself. The fruit was not what made them fall. It was disobeying God that made them fall.
God had to do something to cause them to fall but not make them do something inherently evil.
God could not force man to fall, they had to do it on their own.
You could ask then why didn't God just tell them to eat the fruit so they would become mortal? There really was nothing special about the fruit itself. The fruit was not what made them fall. It was disobeying God that made them fall.
God had to do something to cause them to fall but not make them do something inherently evil.
God could not force man to fall, they had to do it on their own.
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brutus:
rubbish: why cant you accept that they had no choice, why is that so hard, it's not rocket science is it.
they were forced, no choice.
rubbish: why cant you accept that they had no choice, why is that so hard, it's not rocket science is it.
they were forced, no choice.