Heaven and Hell= Nonsense

[SnakeLord]

No, there is no real compelling evidence that I can show you right now.

And somewhat because of that, any claim you make on this issue is worthless. To yourself it has merit, but to the rest of humanity you might aswell be claiming Lord of the Rings is a factual story. The specific problem with this can be seen all over the globe. Everyone is trying to convince everyone else of their own little, completely evidence-less, belief. One contradicts another and so on and so forth, leaving humans divided and confused and yet they try and promote this shit to our children.

- Upon death, every human individual get's reincarnated as a frog.

Prove that wrong. You can't. Would you let the education system teach something like this to your children? I sincerely hope not - and yet that is what's happening day in, day out.

While you might not be teaching your belief/s in a school system, you work under similar principle, speaking of things as if they were fact, such as:

The infinite soul which resides in one's body during life does not die. The soul is eternal. The body reaches a finality of genetic decay but the soul is still very much intact...maybe somewhat disillusioned when one sheds the body, but not lost in any sense of the word. "Death" is only a "transition." It's not a finality. The soul is still very much alive.

Without the evidence to suggest plausability, the above quote is nothing but personal assumption, and is completely without worth. As such is has no right to be presented to the world in such manner, (much the same as the 'frog belief', and all religious based garbage).

It seems people are more concerned with teaching others about stuff they don't know, than stuff they do know.

The "compelling evidence" I became aware of is that Jesus was not the messiah after all. I cannot go beyond that now.

I fail to see why not. Was it...

A vision?
A being came down and told you?
Aliens abducted you and implanted the information in your brain?
You read a book?
Self realisation? (I.e Your brain settled on the idea for it's own reasons)

How hard can it be to explain? Give me the simplistic answer at least.

 

[SnakeLord]

As a further point, i'd like to steal a quote from a different thread.

Now you've heard this mystery revealed, whether you agree with it or not now, you'll remember what I've said...and someday enough peices of the puzzle will fit together for you, and it'll click..and you'll see it.

TheVisitor said that. In this thread you've said:

When the time is right, you will become enlightened

and..

When the time is right for you, I have no doubt you will understand it.

Now, these are just a few examples, but I hear this tripe all the time, off a whole multitude of people with completely different, and often conflicting, beliefs. Not one of you is capable of proving the claims, or even showing evidence in support- but go around telling people what "will" happen, and talking to them like they're just a bunch of unlucky fuckers, or brainless fuckers.

It is always the 'believers' main argument - In that: "you're just not ready or have no understanding unless you see things the way I do." It is complete self righteousness, and when it comes to the burden of facts and reality, nobody has anything to offer.

Squat, nada, zip, bugger all.

As such, again, you have no right or place to be stating such things because they are ultimately worthless.

 

[Jenyar]

It is always the 'believers' main argument - In that: "you're just not ready or have no understanding unless you see things the way I do." It is complete self righteousness, and when it comes to the burden of facts and reality, nobody has anything to offer.

Good post, SnakeLord.

It could be said that if something isn't immediately relevant to even those least ready to receive it, then it has no relevance at all. But that just feeds off our culture of instant gratification. Many religionists overplay the need for "being ready" (as you said, in most cases it simply means "when you have converted to my cause"), conversely, most skeptics overemphasize instant awareness.

The Gospels propose to be "the mystery of God revealed". It doesn't ask if you are ready to understand it, or if you understand it at all. But at the same time it makes itself immediately relevant by making the implications clear. What you throw away in this life will be thrown away in the next. It doesn't even matter if you believe in the next life - the Sadducees didn't - it's a call to responsibility and accountability of epic proportions. If you are used to living in your own world it is a shock to the system, but evidently it is possible to live in God's world even without recognizing Him. Just like receiving a call of duty, there's no "someday" to wait for until you understand the war - you take it up or you don't. Run Forrest, run...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

As a further point, i'd like to steal a quote from a different thread.

TheVisitor said that. In this thread you've said:

and..

Now, these are just a few examples, but I hear this tripe all the time, off a whole multitude of people with completely different, and often conflicting, beliefs. Not one of you is capable of proving the claims, or even showing evidence in support- but go around telling people what "will" happen, and talking to them like they're just a bunch of unlucky fuckers, or brainless fuckers.

It is always the 'believers' main argument - In that: "you're just not ready or have no understanding unless you see things the way I do." It is complete self righteousness, and when it comes to the burden of facts and reality, nobody has anything to offer.

Squat, nada, zip, bugger all.

As such, again, you have no right or place to be stating such things because they are ultimately worthless.

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M*W: First, let me make sure you understand that I am an x-xian. I learned the truth while I was standing right by the high altar in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Not that that's the only place you could find the truth. That was the place the truth was to be found FOR ME! But it could have been ANYWHERE! That which I consider to be the truth, may not be the truth for you or anyone else. I am only in control of my senses. So, consider what I have to say as bullshit, and please don't comment if you may disagree. Otherwise we could go round and round forever on this subject. I'm not out here to try to change anyone's beliefs. To each his own, but I have a right just like any of you to air my beliefs and opinions. I know that I am not alone even on sciforums. Those of us who believe the same don't have a need for a religion or a church. Although, if there was a group that got together in like mind, I would consider participating. The world is going to change whether I have anything say about it or not. Creation will continue evolving long after the gospels are proven false. I wonder what the remaining xians on the planet (25%) are going to do when they find out the truth? I'm not going to be the one to break the news to them. They're going to see it for themselves. Maybe that will be their tribulation, I don't know. It's not for me to say. I can ONLY say what I BELIEVE! You, on the other hand, do not have to believe it. In fact, I'd rather you NOT believe anything I say! Just avoid my posts, and don't bother to reply. You will find out the truth when the time comes.

 

[SnakeLord]

As I said on my last post: Squat, nada, zip, bugger all.

Ok, so I now know you were in Rome. Where you were at the time of this revelation is insignificant, because that's not what I asked.

Let's recap: You told me I wouldn't believe compelling evidence if it got up and smacked me in the face. I have given you several opportunities for you to do just that, and yet in each instance you fail.

I'm also well aware you're an x-xian, and quite clearly an anti-xian aswell. It is of course not much of a surprise that your revelation would happen in the engine room of the catholic faith, but I still await explanation of how this revelation came about.

You said you'd rather me NOT believe anything you say, which is fine, but that still gives no reason not to explain how you found out this 'truth' of yours. Although I would question why a person who knows what the truth is, uses the word "believe".

I don't say "I believe in gravity", because gravity is a fact. It exists.. I know it exists.. Even if someone wanted to debate the issue of gravity with me, I would never use the word "believe" because I would know it to be true, whether anyone else agreed or not.

It always makes me laugh when I hear a religious man, who claims to have 'connected' with god, say: "I believe in god". If they'd actually witnessed this god/jesus in any way shape or form, the word "believe" would never be used.

In actuality, the word "believe" is worthless. It is used to give any old explanation to something you cannot explain/understand. Aside from that it also has bias applications:

You used the word "truth" a good 10 or more times in your post, and then just before ending it all with another "truth", you said "I can only say what i believe". You even went so far as to type believe in caps. As such, every instance of the word "truth" , becomes null and void.

However, all that aside.. I'm still giving you the opportunity to slap me in the face with your compelling evidence.

 

[Max Action]

According to the bible, hell is a place where you will suffer, be in turmoil,grief, etc for all eternity.

Heaven on the other hand is a place opposite to that. A place where you will be happy,joyful,enlightened, experience eternal bliss.

Actually, throughout the Old Testament, "Heaven" is nothing more than the sky, where a vengeful god happens to live. There is no concept of hell: instead, we have Sheol, which is a shadowy, ghostly place, literally underground, that all peoples' "spirit," or more literally, "breath," goes to after death. There, they sort of slowly fade away, without memories, hopes, or emotions. There is no afterdeath punishment in the OT: you get punished for evil while alive, and rewarded for obeying YHWH while alive, as well.

By the NT, we have a modified view, in which the good are pretty much tromped on in life, and promised some sort of happy la-la zombie kingdom here on earth when God comes down from the sky and takes over the government. While the good zombies are enjoying the literal "Kingdom of God," the bad zombies will be stuck hanging out in Gehenna (sp? it's been awhile), the horrendous trash dump that burned outside the city walls.

Anyway, the modern conception of heaven and hell is not anything that an objective scholar of the Bible, unexposed to the traditional "clouds, harps, eternal life, St Peter at the Gate" crap, would ever in a million years draw from what is actually written in the Bible on the matter.

 

[Greco]

Something you have to remember is actually all mass/energy in this universe is infact eternal,so you are made of the eternal mass/energy of the universe,so in that sense your physical mass is indestructable on a universal scale,this is definatly correct and proven.

On a quantum scale the only difference between life and death is the arrangment of your atoms,just think about that.

We know the biological,the necrosis the rotting etc,but it begs the question:

Why does mass/energy need to be eternal?
I suppose if your weak anthropic youll say "well it is what it is for we are here to talk about it,thats the reason:it is what it is"
ha! its not called weak for no reason.

Is it because on a quantum level they are doing something different elsewhere,but at the same time,but both need to exist?

Thats why i stay agnostic and skeptical,i dont believe in heaven and hell exactly,but i think if there is a god(and there has to be just for this subject) then id have thought he sees it like this:

"ill create everything,so everything happens,for some it may be hell,for some it may be heaven,but all will see both(i shall see all),but not so either will meet,thus the same person experiences heaven/hell"

For some the second world war happened and it was hell they got killed,for them same people also hitler never existed.

Could work like that.

Sounds more like the Indian re-incarnation religions where you experience many varied lifes hoping for enlightment.

On the thought of heaven and hell, two opposite poles, one defines the other but once you get to heaven what do you have to define good? How does one know how to behave without the full spectrum of values. Does one behave good remembering what evil was? If we assume that heaven and hell exist then I believe each must have a range of ethical values that one must exist by. Good and evil must exist side by side even in heaven.

 

[canxbluest]

Snake what do you have to say about out of body experiences. I mean they have been occuring for the longest time now. Im curious to know if u have read about these cases. brief sample cases. CASE 1: a old lady who had an out of body experience and found herself lurking in another room. She returned to her body and described in detail what another patient was doing. CASE 2: A man saw a image of a his sister in the night. That morning he found out his sister died of a stroke.
ETC. BTW. Astral projections is a study now. In which one can leave the body etc.

 

[SnakeLord]

Snake what do you have to say about out of body experiences. I mean they have been occuring for the longest time now. Im curious to know if u have read about these cases.

I have spent the past 17 years or so studying unexplained phenomena of all kinds, including OOBE's. The main thing with OOBE's/white tunnels and occurences of this nature, are that they happen when a person isn't in the best possible state, (i.e they're dying).

The brain is fully capable of imaging yourself from a 3rd person perspective. Many times I'm actually looking at myself in my dreams, as if I was someone else, standing by simply as an observer. The brain is a seriously complex thing, and at a time after a severe accident, or at a time when death is an imminent possibility, it wouldn't be unusual for the brain to go into safe mode, or due to the nature of your injuries- to put you in a dreamlike state. I have had the similar experiences during some experimental uses of :m: .

CASE 1: a old lady who had an out of body experience and found herself lurking in another room. She returned to her body and described in detail what another patient was doing.

Although I'd need more details concerning any individual case, we must also acknowledge that the brain will pick up and store details of everything around us. I can tell you what my old house looked like in detail, and I haven't been there in the past 10 years - yet I can still remember every door, every wall, every crack on the ceiling. In dreams concerning 3rd person perspective, the brain can put together an entire city of streets, buildings and whatever else.

When I lie down to go to sleep at night, noises that during the day wouldn't even be noticed, become so clear.. Even with the TV on it's lowest volume setting, I can hear it perfectly. Senses are more fine tuned at times like these, and this old lady most probably heard what was going on around her, plus the visual aspects stored in her brain which gave her a very realistic OOBE. It would be much more impressive if this old lady walked to a pub down the road which she's never been to before, and said how many people were there, what they looked like etc. If I ever have a 'real' OOBE, that would be my goal, (or sneaking into the female changing rooms at the local swimming pool)

CASE 2: A man saw a image of a his sister in the night. That morning he found out his sister died of a stroke.

This is quite different to an OOBE, (well, unless the woman claims she walked over to her brothers house - but being dead, she most likely wouldn't be able to). What is usually found in these situations is simply the power of coincidence.

I was sitting right here in front of the computer, and saw a 'white figure' walk past in the reflection from the monitor. It was convincing enough that I turned round to see who it was, (I thought it was my wife). Nobody was there so I carried on with my day. The next day I found out a friend of mine had died, and as such could instantly attribute the 'sighting' as her in ghostly form. Then again, I can tell you about times I've seen and 'felt' things, (like a chill up my spine etc), and nobody has been found dead the next day.

One time while lying in bed, I saw the image of a horse, (which in the daylight was simply my clothes in a pile on the floor), but I could have sworn there was a horse in my bedroom. The next day a friend could have told me their horse died, and again that 'sighting' would be instantly attributed to a ghost horse, or a premonition of upcoming events, but then again it could have simply been a 'misrepresentation' on the part of my brain. While the brain can do amazing things, it can also do rather daft things, (like causing 'twitches').

Sure, maybe there are ghosts, but I think the first step is to understand the brain in its entirety. If we don't even know how we work while alive, how can we know how we work when we're dead?

BTW. Astral projections is a study now. In which one can leave the body etc.

Well I'm sure that would be the latest application to Military Intelligence. Imagine being able to walk into enemy territory as a 'ghost' like being, and see what's going on. I'd also tell my wife never to get naked, just incase there's a perverted OOBE'er walking round my neighbourhood.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

As I said on my last post: Squat, nada, zip, bugger all.

Ok, so I now know you were in Rome. Where you were at the time of this revelation is insignificant, because that's not what I asked.

Let's recap: You told me I wouldn't believe compelling evidence if it got up and smacked me in the face. I have given you several opportunities for you to do just that, and yet in each instance you fail.

I'm also well aware you're an x-xian, and quite clearly an anti-xian aswell. It is of course not much of a surprise that your revelation would happen in the engine room of the catholic faith, but I still await explanation of how this revelation came about.

You said you'd rather me NOT believe anything you say, which is fine, but that still gives no reason not to explain how you found out this 'truth' of yours. Although I would question why a person who knows what the truth is, uses the word "believe".

I don't say "I believe in gravity", because gravity is a fact. It exists.. I know it exists.. Even if someone wanted to debate the issue of gravity with me, I would never use the word "believe" because I would know it to be true, whether anyone else agreed or not.

It always makes me laugh when I hear a religious man, who claims to have 'connected' with god, say: "I believe in god". If they'd actually witnessed this god/jesus in any way shape or form, the word "believe" would never be used.

In actuality, the word "believe" is worthless. It is used to give any old explanation to something you cannot explain/understand. Aside from that it also has bias applications:

You used the word "truth" a good 10 or more times in your post, and then just before ending it all with another "truth", you said "I can only say what i believe". You even went so far as to type believe in caps. As such, every instance of the word "truth" , becomes null and void.

However, all that aside.. I'm still giving you the opportunity to slap me in the face with your compelling evidence.

----------
M*W: Okay, let me see if I can answer your questions. The revelation I had in Rome. Went there with my church. No big deal, I lived in Germany. I got such an eerie feeling entering St. Peter's. Talk about icon city! I was overwhelmed with the art, but there was a darkness there. I'm a very sensitive person, like an empath, although I'm somewhat worldly (but not materialistic). At first, I though the experience I was having was religious awe, but then I started to feel like my skin was crawling. It was weird. I felt the urge to get out of there! I was on a tour. A friend of mine was the English-speaking tour director (PhD Renaissance Art). There was something about the cherubs all over the place that were creepy. The gold inlays everywhere, the wealth of artwork, people from all over the world. It was mind-boggling. I just kept hearing in my head that "Jesus didn't die for anyone." As we went all through St. Peter's, we came to the place where the keys to the kingdom were held. I couldn't help but hear a voice in my head saying "these key's won't get you into heaven." That's the first time I ever realized that the kingdom of heaven was right there in my own soul. Those keys were worthless! I went there to give my spirit a religious fix, and it did, just not what I expected, good Catholic that I was. I really can't explain it logically or realistically because it was a feeling I sensed. I sensed evil. That feeling has never left me. Even now when I recall that experience, my skin still crawls. It felt as if there were evil spirits there. It seemed as if the church was hording wealth. I got a very negative feeling. In all my travels all over the world, I have never experienced that anywhere else (except when the Bader-Meinhoff gang and neo-Nazism was rampant in Germany). Needless to say, when I returned from my trip to The Vatican, I felt some disillusioned. I was a convert and Catholicism was the faith I was raising my children in. I had a real dilemma on my hands. I spent a lot of time in our Parish library. I bet I read and reread every book in there. I wanted to relearn everything I could about Catholicism to fight off my feelings. I made an appointment with my priest to ask him questions about my experiences. I was in a spiritual quandry. I was hoping someone would slap me in the face to bring me back to my pre-Vatican faith. Basically, what he told me was that I "shouldn't ask questions." The things I was asking him, he told me that "only priests discuss amongst themselves." Then I was further into my dilemma. It just didn't seem like there was any way out. I quit going to church. It was a loss that I had to grieve through. I had lost something very important to me, but it became more clear as each day went by that I was free, and that I wasn't lost, so I didn't need the salvation the church required. I didn't need that gold, those cherubs, baptism, holy water, insense, chrism, or a sacrifice of any kind. I knew in my heart and soul Jesus didn't die for me. He didn't die for anybody. And, if he did, there was no excuse for a shrine like St. Peter's. I see God in humanity and not in some gold inlaid shrine for a dying demigod savior. I see salvation through humanity of which I am a member in good standing. I see the One Spirit of God which dwells within us all, even those of us who don't recognize God even if he were to slap them all the way to the hell they created. I saw it in the artwork. That's where God is in man's handiwork. Artwork doesn't just tell the story of Jesus, his birth, his life, his crucifixion, his resurrection, although that may be what people see. The artwork tells the TRUTH! Next time you visit a gallery with Renaissance religious art, look at it in a different light, the aura of which it was created. Learn something about the artist, for that is where God lives. Things are not as they seem. I guess what happened to me was the art didn't lie. It told the truth. I would recommend anyone wanting to learn more about religious art, check out the Rennes-le-Chateau web site. It expands on the cover-ups of the RCC. Christianity is like the story of the emperor's new clothes. The more I read about Christianity, the more I believe Christianity is the true Antichrist.

 

[canxbluest]

Though i am a athiest, i feel that much of the worlds problem is because of religion. All religions either are anti humanity or encourage an "after" life, deminishing "real" life.

Christianity for instance; 1. burndens men to be born in sin and as such we are sinful. 2.Claiming the end of the world is near. 3. Even the obsurdity of giving thanks to God for all good things that happen in our lives.

For a believer to believe any of these, or religion as a whole. He/she is already a hindering humanity from achieving not only global success as a truely accomplished society, but as human to truely become PROUD to be human in all its potential and existance.

Surely for the 3rd example of "giving thanks to god for all good things that happen" aka. "Thank God" (saying for just about anything)
If we Thank each other or who ever is due. Surely it would only make our relations richer. Example. Instead of giving grace to god at "dinner" for the food... blah, blah... Give appreciation to each other for a good life that each takes part in making as a family. Thanking Mother and Father for supporting and loving.....etc.

lol which reminds me of a time at dinner..when my aunt in law was visiting from toronto. She was catching a cold and... just to make the point of showing that giving thanks to god for everything that is good is so over-rated. When she sneezed and coughed...I said. "Thank god your sick"...OMG.. You guys should have seened her face.. she DID NOT expect that...lol everyone around the table laughed...

Which is true. God needs to take responsibility for his creations...lol.
which reminds me of the time i asked the communities pastur or priest.. ( which ever)
I asked. "Does god know all, the past, future? He said "Yes"". So when god created adam and eve He already knew that they were goin to SIN. Therefore, One can say the all this was his doing for he created adam and eve.

He explained that "sin" made adam and eve sin. In other words the devil (snake) blah....blah... made them sin.

However that still does not change the fact that since God know all past present and future. He no doubtedly knew they would sin. For all i know he created men to worship him... which is ridiculus.

Anyways Cheers.. mates. =)

 

[canxbluest]

Just one more thing for those critical religious subjects. I didnt have the time to go into detail in the above post. For instance where i said "the devil (snake) blah....blah... made them sin." I sure some will criticize on the fact that adam and eve were not "made" they chose..etc. Yes i know and am aware of all the details.

I have read many books on the this topic and am not ignorant.. just lazy, perhaps a poor writer.. =).

Also when i say religions.. that includes catholics aswell and anyother belief in a supernatural beign which demotes humanity in anyway, directly or indirectly.

P.S While i feel this way. As an Athiest, I still respect EVERYONE regardless of their belief. I live life with fellow men, I maintain a neutral participant in society regarding religious issues. "Part of the solution, as oppose to beign part of the problem."

LOVE ALL.. and Cheers.... P.S for those sensitive to my remarks... no offense.. im just a fellow men making sense of the world through my perspective... =)

 

[rainbow__princess_4]

Yah, like whether heaven or hell actually exist is irrelevant. The reason that most people DO believe in them is the same reason that people believed in werewolves and vampires 600 years ago..