Heaven and Hell= Nonsense

[SnakeLord]

I just find it amusing that heaven is upwards, (in the heavens) and hell is downwards- where, funnily enough, there's a lot of hot stuff.

It seems apparent heaven is the early man term for space and hell is the early man term for the center of the earth. If your mind creates a being that lives in one, (serene and peaceful), it will ultimately create a second being for the second place which is (hot and horrible).

 

[EvilPoet]

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower:
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."
-William Blake

 

[Jenyar]

Snakelord,
It's not that old. It probably comes from the Roman Underworld and "heaven" meaning sky. Those are just words and metaphors describing abstract "places", while in all probability they are neither physical nor temporal. As Blake suggested: eternity can be in a moment that doesn't end.

 

[EvilPoet]

The Underworld

"And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you?
You will be brought down to Hades! -Luke 10:15 (NASB)

"Among many religions the lowest part of the world, usually represented as the realm of the god or goddess of the dead. It is here that the spirits of the deceased stay. The underworld is seperated from the world of the living by an impassable abyss or river (such as the Styx). The entrance to this realm is often guarded by a huge monster, such as the Greek Cerberus and the Norse Garm. The Greeks and the Romans had their Hades; the Egyptians Duat; in the ancient Indian mythology eggshaped worldview Brahmanda it was called Naraka; the Germans called it Helheim; the Incas called it Uca Pacha; the Aztec referred to the underworld as Mictlan; and the Maya believed in Mitnal."

Source: "Underworld." Encyclopedia Mythica.
[Accessed May 16th, 2003.]

"The civilization of Ancient Egypt lasted longer than the entire span of what we have come to accept as 'recorded history': over three thousand years. During these millenia the Egyptians developed a multitude of gods and goddesses, as well as esoteric practices that we are still unravelling the meaning of." [More...]

See also: History of Egypt

 

[canxbluest]

You need a soul to go to heaven/hell correct? No body believes that an inanimate object has an afterlife.

"Ok. How does one explain this from the religious standpoint.... Once we die our bodies shut down and we cease to experience consciousness as we know it. A dead body does not emit energy that could be considered a soul. The body decomposes and the molecules diffuse into nature. Everyone is working off of borrowed material. Eventually every single atom in your body will become part of something else, even the energy contained in your body will diffuse into the atmosphere later to be consumed by something else. "

---- Born in a christian family and turned away from its teachings simply because I founded very "backword" (if i may). I can not explain religiously(neither will i bother) simply because I don't believe in Christianity (religion) and have not studied it accordingly. DefSkeptic Your explanation is most logical and one cant possible disagree with it ( in quote above), given that science has proven it to be so. Never- the- less is is this Energy that i ponder.

Science is still young. We yet have alot too explain. Anyways it is this energy that troubles me and it only does so because of an experience i had when i was 9 yrs.

Experience:
When i was 9 years old. I was fell of a balcony from 2 storeys high.

Out of body Experience:
I found myself above my body. I could see my great-grandmother, grandmother and aunt by my side crying and praying for me. I saw ( saw is a human term. Better to say that i saw everything at once) them along with my body on a bed and what appeared to be my grandmothers bedroom. Its hard to describe what i felt. Except to say that i felt as if a great weigt had been lifted from me. I felt neither sadness nor happines( perhaps cause i really didnt feel those at the time. I dont know). I was in a state best described as conscience (aware). I cant say i felt something, it would be more appropriate to say i was that something. The feeling was intense overpowering yet i felt right. I was sorounded by white light I felt that i was between 2 places. Above was blindfull white light It felt familiar. I looked at it, and then my relatives below and i felt i could not leave them just yet. I saw them crying and all and did not want to leave them. When i made the choice of "not wanting to leave them" i found the image of them becoming clearer and clearer and the bright light more distant. Till i opened my eyes and found my aunt, grandma and great, grandma crying for me just like i saw them doing. They told me i was dead. Although to be there is always the arguement that i wasnt dead, But i mean cmon. I think my suphisticated aunt know how to determined that.

Out of body experiences, near deaths experiences etc. Is something that i am still optimistic about. Its something that i believe in time science will have and explanation about. Who know what is the white light or what happens once we go in it. It easy to theorise on this. I will not comment on the white light and its meaning. I will however comment on what place i was in. I was in between 2 places. The white light and my family (or more boldy human plane). I can say that i had some say whether to go to the white light or go back. I dont know if it was my uncoditional control or if i was allowed. I cant comment but i felt no obligation at the moment. That experience makes me wonder on the whole issue of ghosts and if staying between these 2 planes is what they are. Its quite interesting. Though i have yet to see a real ghost.

 

[Katazia]

Canxbluest,

Out of body experiences, near deaths experiences etc. Is something that i am still optimistic about. Its something that i believe in time science will have and explanation about.

These are caused by trauma to the brain – your brain was not working correctly. To interpret memories under such conditions as something real is quite foolish. Similar effects can be induced by hallucinogenic drugs.

There is no soul or spirit or life force separate from the physical body, or ghosts. Deal with it.

Kat

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I just find it amusing that heaven is upwards, (in the heavens) and hell is downwards- where, funnily enough, there's a lot of hot stuff.

It seems apparent heaven is the early man term for space and hell is the early man term for the center of the earth. If your mind creates a being that lives in one, (serene and peaceful), it will ultimately create a second being for the second place which is (hot and horrible).

-----------
M*W: SnakeLord, I also find heaven and hell in these amusing locations. It really chaps me that people could think of heaven and hell as being anywhere but inside their very soul.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower:
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."
-William Blake

----------
M*W: Blake is my favorite poet. His perception of things is spiritually advanced.

 

[spidergoat]

The whole religious business is nothing but moral codes of conduct. It is a social thing -- nothing religious about it. There is no difference between the policeman and the religious man. The religious man puts the policeman inside you. It is more difficult to handle the policeman inside you. You can corrupt the policeman out there.

U.G. Krishnamurti

 

[SnakeLord]

Canxbluest,

These are caused by trauma to the brain – your brain was not working correctly. To interpret memories under such conditions as something real is quite foolish. Similar effects can be induced by hallucinogenic drugs.

There is no soul or spirit or life force separate from the physical body, or ghosts. Deal with it.

Kat

I suppose one could argue that it's the brains way of coping with impending death. Very often we hear about people who are just about to die... the saying is: "my life flashed before my eyes". That could very well be the brain making it's death .. less painful. By concentrating itself on things that you loved in life, dying becomes less of a hassle. An OOBE is on the same par as that.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

You need a soul to go to heaven/hell correct? No body believes that an inanimate object has an afterlife. canxbluest: "Ok. How does one explain this from the religious standpoint.... Once we die our bodies shut down and we cease to experience consciousness as we know it. A dead body does not emit energy that could be considered a soul. The body decomposes and the molecules diffuse into nature. Everyone is working off of borrowed material. Eventually every single atom in your body will become part of something else, even the energy contained in your body will diffuse into the atmosphere later to be consumed by something else."
----------
M*W: canxbluest, welcome to sciforums.com. I wanted to reply to your message. The infinite soul which resides in one's body during life does not die. The soul is eternal. Heaven and hell are for the most part places one goes in life--not in death. There is no real "death." The body reaches a finality of genetic decay but the soul is still very much intact...maybe somewhat disillusioned when one sheds the body, but not lost in any sense of the word. "Death" is only a "transition." It's not a finality. The soul is still very much alive. The soul would have already been existing in "heaven" or "hell," depending on the life of the deceased.
----------
canxbluest: Born in a christian family and turned away from its teachings simply because I founded very "backword" (if i may). I can not explain religiously(neither will i bother) simply because I don't believe in Christianity (religion) and have not studied it accordingly. DefSkeptic Your explanation is most logical and one cant possible disagree with it ( in quote above), given that science has proven it to be so. Never- the- less is is this Energy that i ponder.
----------
M*W: I understand your stance about Christianity. I, too, was a staunch Catholic for many years until I visited the Vatican and lost my faith. I studied it and I taught it for many years, and then I grieved over losing my faith. I was sorely disappointed in what I found to be the "truth." I was living a lie.
----------
canxbluest: Science is still young. We yet have alot too explain. Anyways it is this energy that troubles me and it only does so because of an experience i had when i was 9 yrs.
----------
M*W: I understand about this "energy" you speak of. That is what the universe is made up of--energy. Energy is a big part of us, but its a big part of every rock, every grain of sand, every mote of dust, and every human being. We start experiencing genetic decay when we take our first breath. So, a lifetime of energy will eventually wane. Sometimes is sooner than later when the fire goes out. It's our life force that determines when our energy finally dies out.
----------
Experience:
When i was 9 years old. I was fell of a balcony from 2 storeys high.

Out of body Experience:
I found myself above my body. I could see my great-grandmother, grandmother and aunt by my side crying and praying for me. I saw ( saw is a human term. Better to say that i saw everything at once) them along with my body on a bed and what appeared to be my grandmothers bedroom. Its hard to describe what i felt. Except to say that i felt as if a great weigt had been lifted from me. I felt neither sadness nor happines( perhaps cause i really didnt feel those at the time. I dont know). I was in a state best described as conscience (aware). I cant say i felt something, it would be more appropriate to say i was that something. The feeling was intense overpowering yet i felt right. I was sorounded by white light I felt that i was between 2 places. Above was blindfull white light It felt familiar. I looked at it, and then my relatives below and i felt i could not leave them just yet. I saw them crying and all and did not want to leave them. When i made the choice of "not wanting to leave them" i found the image of them becoming clearer and clearer and the bright light more distant. Till i opened my eyes and found my aunt, grandma and great, grandma crying for me just like i saw them doing. They told me i was dead. Although to be there is always the arguement that i wasnt dead, But i mean cmon. I think my suphisticated aunt know how to determined that.
----------
canxbluest: Out of body experiences, near deaths experiences etc. Is something that i am still optimistic about. Its something that i believe in time science will have and explanation about.
----------
M&W: I'm glad you survived your fall from the balcony. There is a reason you made it. I enjoyed reading about you prediciment. When my daughter was about 18 months old, she was a very hyperactive child. Something warned me to go to her, and there she was on the third story window sill! I quietly walked into the room trying not to panic, and I grabbed her by the waist and just threw us onto the bed! That child, God love her, was going to be the death of me, but you know, I didn't let her! She's 28 years old today, and a LOT more careful! I thank God for her. It was the "God within me" that told me to go to her. It was the "God within me" that told me how to save her. It was the "God in me" that grabbed her around the waist to throw her on the bed that saved both of us. If I had lost her, I wouldn't be complete. It was the "God in both of us" that saved us. She was raised a good Catholic, but today, she knows where God is, and God is within her. I raised my children as good Catholics, but I was the one to find out the truth. Then I told them the truth. God is not "out there." God is "within." I'm glad you made it!

 

[SnakeLord]

M*W: canxbluest, welcome to sciforums.com. I wanted to reply to your message. The infinite soul which resides in one's body during life does not die. The soul is eternal. Heaven and hell are for the most part places one goes in life--not in death. There is no real "death." The body reaches a finality of genetic decay but the soul is still very much intact...maybe somewhat disillusioned when one sheds the body, but not lost in any sense of the word. "Death" is only a "transition." It's not a finality. The soul is still very much alive. The soul would have already been existing in "heaven" or "hell," depending on the life of the deceased.

Do you have one iota of evidence to support such a claim? What you state is no better than the religious concept, and just as groundless. The problem i find with people telling others what happens after death is this: Everyone who makes the claim is still very much alive, and as such has no place whatsoever to be making afterlife claims of any sort. Science can quite easily show you what happens to the body, to all the electrical activity of the body center, (brain), etc etc. Apart from stating that which can be witnessed by everyone - there is NO point making claims as to what happens after. The Egyptians thought they'd sail off to wherever, the christians believe they'll go sit with jesus wherever and so on- and yet the fundamental point is always missed: You're alive at the time the claims are made, you wouldn't have the slightest clue of any "paranormal" activity that might start after.

Furthermore, the majority of humans I have spoken to, believe this only happens to humans. Elephants, tigers and hedgehogs all just die and rot, whereas us humans have some special ability to walk around as see-through people, or get to sit on a golden chair in another realm. It's preposterous, and based solely on the fear of mortality.

It's 2004. By now I would have thought humans were beyond such groundless tripe. Still, I eagerly await your compelling evidence.

 

[Ellimist]

I would like to rephrase the premise of this thread...

Heaven + Hell = Nonsense

And by that, I mean christianity. Yes, this is yet another attack on the christians... They need it. Their self-righteous religion is detrimental to the healths of the world's cultures. Haha...

 

[Katazia]

Snakelord,

It's 2004. By now I would have thought humans were beyond such groundless tripe.

Nicely said.

Kat

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Do you have one iota of evidence to support such a claim? What you state is no better than the religious concept, and just as groundless. The problem i find with people telling others what happens after death is this: Everyone who makes the claim is still very much alive, and as such has no place whatsoever to be making afterlife claims of any sort.
----------
M*W: You're an atheist, so all spirituality is groundless to you. That's okay, but just because you don't believe in life in the spirit does not mean that others don't understand or believe in its existence. The timing of such things is revealed at different times to different people. That's why there's always such confusion about spiritual matters. When the time is right for you, I have no doubt you will understand it. Apparently, where you are today spiritually is where you're supposed to be.
----------
Science can quite easily show you what happens to the body, to all the electrical activity of the body center, (brain), etc etc. Apart from stating that which can be witnessed by everyone -there is NO point making claims as to what happens after. The Egyptians thought they'd sail off to wherever, the christians believe they'll go sit with jesus wherever and so on- and yet the fundamental point is always missed: You're alive at the time the claims are made, you wouldn't have the slightest clue of any "paranormal" activity that might start after.
----------
M*W: I'm all too familiar with what happens when the body goes into genetic decay. My point is that there is only "death" to the corporeal body, but not the spirit. The spirit is very much alive before birth and after death. This isn't a theory of mine. I've read all the life-after-life books, and I'm convinced there is no such thing as "death" as have known it. Until one is spiritually knowledgeable, it makes no sense. Ask anyone who has had a near-death experience, and they will tell you everything you need to know about the life of the spirit.
----------
Furthermore, the majority of humans I have spoken to, believe this only happens to humans. Elephants, tigers and hedgehogs all just die and rot, whereas us humans have some special ability to walk around as see-through people, or get to sit on a golden chair in another realm. It's preposterous, and based solely on the fear of mortality.
----------
M*W: Well, I hope it was to a majority of humans to whom you have spoken. Did the elephants, tigers and hedgehogs tell you personally that they "just die and rot?" Humans don't have a special ability to walk around as see-through people! You probably read too much sci-fi or movies with special effects! Humans cease to be forms of matter when they go through the process of genetic decay. They may have human REMAINS in a cemetery, mausoleum, urn or funeral pyre, but the corporeal body has been "discarded" by the spirit. Elephants, tigers and h edgehogs are all part of nature, and they also experience genetic decay. I can't imagine a creature of nature who is very much alive and part of creation would not have a soul. My Labs can think, feel, express themselves, play, long for, and try to please. I cannot imagine them just dying and rotting, especially since their whole existence is based on unconditional love. Where there's love, there is spirit. They are very much a part of my spirit. I believe that the One Spirit of God is in all of creation, so to answer your question about animals "dying and rotting," their experience the same thing that we do: shedding their Earthsuit and freeing their spirit. Together, all of creation is one big soul, and we're all part of it. I believe the animals we loved here on Earth, who have preceded us in genetic decay, will be there to greet us when our spirit is free.
----------
It's 2004. By now I would have thought humans were beyond such groundless tripe. Still, I eagerly await your compelling evidence.
----------
M*W: Unfortunately, humans like yourself, wouldn't believe the compelling evidence if it hit you in the face. I can only state what I believe to be true. It's not for me to tell you or anyone else what the truth should be. When the time is right, you will become enlightened.

 

[spidergoat]

Their self-righteous religion is detrimental to the healths of the world's cultures.

The world's cultures are detrimental to the health of the world!

 

[SnakeLord]

You're an atheist, so all spirituality is groundless to you.

I have taken the time to put your above quote in its proper form:

I'm an athiest because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest plausability of any religiously based claims.

We could sit an argue that anything and everything we can think of exists, be it ghosts, parallel dimensions, green cigar smoking leprechauns that live under your floorboards, etc but ALL remain mere fantasy until such time there is evidence to suggest existence.

You can say "no! the leprechaun is real, I've seen it, and you need to find the right time and you'll believe it too", and of course nobody can prove that claim false, but I do have some questions that might help me understand your position better:

Who/what told you about your spirit?

If you reply that you 'just know', it's pertinent to point out that's simply because your brain is telling you - nothing mystical or magical - just your brain. Alas, we don't know a whole hell of a lot about the brain, and it requires a lot more time before anyone's in a position to give "brain claims" validity. All the common statements of 'I feel god in my heart' simply relate to brain impulses - emotions caused by the brain, reactions of chemicals etc. In every instance, people end up admitting "I've never actually seen god, but I feel him in my heart." At the end of the day, that has no validity whatsoever.

That 'right time' you speak of. I find it very interesting that it's usually when someone is in deep emotional shit. Those who's brains work hard enough to ensure survival, become religious - those who's brain fails, jump off cliffs. The opening sentence to a religious man's history is generally always the same:

"I was at a real bad time in my life..."

That says it all. The brain gives them reason to survive... Just like it ensures we breathe every second of the day.

where you are today spiritually is where you're supposed to be

Where I am today, is where every human is supposed to be. Truth over peace of mind, fact over fiction. Seriously, when my brain requires some make-believe for nourishment, I just watch Star Trek.

My point is that there is only "death" to the corporeal body, but not the spirit.

That's not a point, it's an assumption. For the second time now: Do you have one iota of evidence to support such a claim? Please, it only requires a yes or no.

This isn't a theory of mine. I've read all the life-after-life books, and I'm convinced there is no such thing as "death" as have known it.

Well... at least you do research I suppose. Anyway, do you have one iota of evidence to suggest plausability or are you founding a belief simply because a book you read, sounded nice?

Ask anyone who has had a near-death experience, and they will tell you everything you need to know about the life of the spirit.

It can hardly be considered valid testimony. I spent a long time studying OOBE's. I spoke to a guy who had apparently stepped out of his body. However, when you look at the facts, how much weight does that claim have? The guy had been hit by a fast moving lump of metal, (a car), had then bounced over the car and landed smack bang on a solid block of concrete. It is pertinent to say his body/brain were undergoing some serious stresses. Would you regard anything this man claims to have seen at that moment, as viable? The same can be said of anyone who's on the verge of kicking the bucket. They are not viable witnesses. What is much more pertinent to state, is that the brain is making the move from life to death a pleasant one. Most of those people would have died if they were fully aware they were lying on a block of concrete, bleeding all over the place - so the brain gives them something else to concentrate on: "My life flashed before my eyes", "I was flying above my body looking around" etc. How much more serene is that than "I could feel blood oozing from the big hole in my stomach, could feel the extraordinary pain coming from my broken leg, broken arm, and broken nose.." etc?

The brain has many 'safe modes' it adopts to protect the body, and itself from harm. If you repeatedly hit someone with a baseball bat, you go unconcious, etc. Mere safety methods, and hardly a sign of a wonderful afterlife walking round as a wisp.

Humans don't have a special ability to walk around as see-through people! You probably read too much sci-fi or movies with special effects!

The ghost phenomena is bigger than you obviously think.

but the corporeal body has been "discarded" by the spirit.

Any evidence to support this claim? Didn't think so.

I cannot imagine them just dying and rotting, especially since their whole existence is based on unconditional love.

What has love got to do with anything, especially with claims of existence of souls?

I believe the animals we loved here on Earth, who have preceded us in genetic decay, will be there to greet us when our spirit is free.

Ha, and you accused me of watching too many movies... Seems you're a big fan of Walt Disney films.

Unfortunately, humans like yourself, wouldn't believe the compelling evidence if it hit you in the face.

Oh really? Tell you what... Show me some compelling evidence, and we'll see.

I can only state what I believe to be true.

Why bother if you have nothing to back it up with? It makes you look stupid.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I have taken the time to put your above quote in its proper form:

I'm an athiest because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest plausability of any religiously based claims.

We could sit an argue that anything and everything we can think of exists, be it ghosts, parallel dimensions, green cigar smoking leprechauns that live under your floorboards, etc but ALL remain mere fantasy until such time there is evidence to suggest existence.

You can say "no! the leprechaun is real, I've seen it, and you need to find the right time and you'll believe it too", and of course nobody can prove that claim false, but I do have some questions that might help me understand your position better:

Who/what told you about your spirit?

If you reply that you 'just know', it's pertinent to point out that's simply because your brain is telling you - nothing mystical or magical - just your brain. Alas, we don't know a whole hell of a lot about the brain, and it requires a lot more time before anyone's in a position to give "brain claims" validity. All the common statements of 'I feel god in my heart' simply relate to brain impulses - emotions caused by the brain, reactions of chemicals etc. In every instance, people end up admitting "I've never actually seen god, but I feel him in my heart." At the end of the day, that has no validity whatsoever.

That 'right time' you speak of. I find it very interesting that it's usually when someone is in deep emotional shit. Those who's brains work hard enough to ensure survival, become religious - those who's brain fails, jump off cliffs. The opening sentence to a religious man's history is generally always the same:

"I was at a real bad time in my life..."

That says it all. The brain gives them reason to survive... Just like it ensures we breathe every second of the day.

Where I am today, is where every human is supposed to be. Truth over peace of mind, fact over fiction. Seriously, when my brain requires some make-believe for nourishment, I just watch Star Trek.

That's not a point, it's an assumption. For the second time now: Do you have one iota of evidence to support such a claim? Please, it only requires a yes or no.

Well... at least you do research I suppose. Anyway, do you have one iota of evidence to suggest plausability or are you founding a belief simply because a book you read, sounded nice?

It can hardly be considered valid testimony. I spent a long time studying OOBE's. I spoke to a guy who had apparently stepped out of his body. However, when you look at the facts, how much weight does that claim have? The guy had been hit by a fast moving lump of metal, (a car), had then bounced over the car and landed smack bang on a solid block of concrete. It is pertinent to say his body/brain were undergoing some serious stresses. Would you regard anything this man claims to have seen at that moment, as viable? The same can be said of anyone who's on the verge of kicking the bucket. They are not viable witnesses. What is much more pertinent to state, is that the brain is making the move from life to death a pleasant one. Most of those people would have died if they were fully aware they were lying on a block of concrete, bleeding all over the place - so the brain gives them something else to concentrate on: "My life flashed before my eyes", "I was flying above my body looking around" etc. How much more serene is that than "I could feel blood oozing from the big hole in my stomach, could feel the extraordinary pain coming from my broken leg, broken arm, and broken nose.." etc?

The brain has many 'safe modes' it adopts to protect the body, and itself from harm. If you repeatedly hit someone with a baseball bat, you go unconcious, etc. Mere safety methods, and hardly a sign of a wonderful afterlife walking round as a wisp.

The ghost phenomena is bigger than you obviously think.

Any evidence to support this claim? Didn't think so.

What has love got to do with anything, especially with claims of existence of souls?

Ha, and you accused me of watching too many movies... Seems you're a big fan of Walt Disney films.

Ah really? Tell you what... Show me some compelling evidence, and we'll see.

Why bother if you have nothing to back it up with? It makes you look stupid.
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M*W: No, I don't watch Disney films nor do I was any kind of sci-fi. If I told you how I got this information, you wouldn't believe me anyway. It threw me for a loop when I heard it. That was about 25 years ago. I live a pretty normal life all things considered. The compelling evidence is yet to come, but not through me. At least you're an atheist. When you do get the message, you won't be so shocked. Only the xians will not be able to deal with it.

 

[SnakeLord]

If I told you how I got this information, you wouldn't believe me anyway.

Try me..

The compelling evidence is yet to come, but not through me

So, there is no compelling evidence until your brain decides to make you think a certain thing is true - and that in itself is regarded as compelling evidence? But I'll forego this line of questioning for now. I'd simply ask you to be kind enough to tell me how you got this information.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Try me..

So, there is no compelling evidence until your brain decides to make you think a certain thing is true - and that in itself is regarded as compelling evidence? But I'll forego this line of questioning for now. I'd simply ask you to be kind enough to tell me how you got this information.

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M*W: No, there is no real compelling evidence that I can show you right now. My brain has nothing to do with this compelling evidence. I wish it did, then maybe I'd understand it. The "compelling evidence" I received is when I visited the Vatican. The "compelling evidence" I became aware of is that Jesus was not the messiah after all. I cannot go beyond that now.