Hate Crimes and Homos - a revealing perspective

[imaplanck.]

Do you think he will give a damn when he attempts to appease his repressed sexuality in someones face?

 

[Bowser]

Personal health considerations? What sort of new personal health consideratiosn arise when the chick you banged turns out to be physicaly male?

My point might be mute considering the nature of the encounter.

I've never heard of such a practice, nor does this article support such an idea. If you'd actualy read it you'd realize that this was a transexual, not a gay male.

It's homosexuality in a dress. Or you could say it's a guy who wants to be a woman. Damn this stuff is confusing! It's a guy that wants to be a woman that wants others to see it as a woman but is not homosexual because homosexuals have no issues with their gender identity but preferr to have sexual contact with their gender unless they are bisexual which then cannot be considered homosexual since they have no preference of gender though still identify with there own gender...

I'm curious at what a Buddhist or a Christian might see as being the root cause of this unfortunate encounter.

 

[Roman]

I wonder how Jesus would feel about your hate and ease at which you judge other sinners.

 

[Bowser]

It's a guy that wants to be a woman that wants others to see him as a woman but is not homosexual because homosexuals have no issues with their gender identity but preferr to have sexual contact with their gender unless they are bisexual which then cannot be considered homosexual since they have no preference of gender though still identify with thier own gender...

Is this not how I am being asked to view the issue? If I need understand it, then isn't this the logic being offered? They are people first, and I remind myself and anyone else reading this of that fact.

Now, if a Christian or Buddhist proclaims that homosexuality, bisexuality and transvestitism is wrong. Are they necessarily "bashing" gays?

I wonder how Jesus would feel about your hate and ease at which you judge other sinners.

He would forgive me, of course. As for judging others, you too are doing the same. Other than that, the crux of the matter might rise up from a more basic principle. I leave that possibility open for anyone to answer.

 

[Athelwulf]

If it should be alright, as some people here so boldly state, for a straight guy to use as an excuse for murder the fact the girl he had sex with was biologically male ("gay panic"), then should it also be alright for a gay guy to use the fact that the guy he had sex with was biologically female ("straight panic")? If a person's sexual orientation should be considered a valid provokation, then should it work both ways?

 

[Bowser]

If it should be alright, as some people here so boldly state, for a straight guy to use as an excuse for murder the fact the girl he had sex with was biologically male ("gay panic"), then should it also be alright for a gay guy to use the fact that the guy he had sex with was biologically female ("straight panic")? If a person's sexual orientation should be considered a valid provokation, then should it work both ways?

Murder... Sheesh... Is there a fine line? My thought is that all involved were searching for the same thing, bringing about the demise of all three. The issue of labeling it as a hate crime seems superfluous.

 

[James R]

If some guy wants to hide the fact that he is male (Dude Looks Like A Lady) in hopes of attracting other males for sexual activity's He should be bashed.

Why?

Are you scared he'll turn you gay?

 

[Bowser]

One might look at it as having sex with another who is HIV positive yet not being informed prior to contact. Would you have sex with someone knowing that they were within a risk group? Does a person have the right to know the true or previous gender of a potential partner prior to having sexual contact?

 

[Athelwulf]

One might look at it as having sex with another who is HIV positive yet not being informed prior to contact.

This is certainly bad, however it's not a legitimate defense for murder, as this "gay panic" defence was.

Would you have sex with someone knowing that they were within a risk group?

Everyone's within a risk group, and one should be cautious with everyone.

Also, the defence quite explicitly states that the murder was done because the person was gay. If it were an issue of the person being within a risk group for HIV, then the defence would center around that fact instead. Remember that Black people are also considered to be a risk group for HIV, but a "Black panic" defence would certainly be unacceptable.

Using this argument reeks of rationalization to me.

Does a person have the right to know the true or previous gender of a potential partner prior to having sexual contact?

Well, I would say that it's something that should be talked about if a long-term relationship is something both parties expect, simply because communication is the sort of thing a relationship needs.

 

[Bowser]

This is certainly bad, however it's not a legitimate defense for murder, as this "gay panic" defence was.


Everyone's within a risk group, and one should be cautious with everyone.

Possibly so... I'm not certain of the statistics that CDC holds for that specific group or anyother..

Also, the defence quite explicitly states that the murder was done because the person was gay. If it were an issue of the person being within a risk group for HIV, then the defence would center around that fact instead. Remember that Black people are also considered to be a risk group for HIV, but a "Black panic" defence would certainly be unacceptable.

Homosexual lifestyle being at higher risk for HIV and other diseases is public knowledge, thus giving reason for panic. Tell me you wouldn't panic if stabbed with a hypodermic needle that had been used by someone in a risk group. If informed, would you avoid that risk?

It would be harder to argue that a black person could disguise his colour, though I doubt one would feel a need.

Using this argument reeks of rationalization to me.

It cannot be anymore irrational than dressing like a woman and placing yourself at the mercy of two men who think you are the real deal.

Well, I would say that it's something that should be talked about if a long-term relationship is something both parties expect, simply because communication is the sort of thing a relationship needs.

And what of sexual encounters such as this? What is your wisdom where this is concerned. What advice might you offer to a transvestite on the prowl?

I'm not excusing murder. It is a very unfortunate thing.

 

[Bowser]

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

For anyone who is curious about the numbers.

 

[Athelwulf]

Homosexual lifestyle being at higher risk for HIV and other diseases is public knowledge, thus giving reason for panic.

Some people may be afraid of homosexuals simply because they believe they're a risk group, but I really have yet to meet someone like that. I've observed that most people are afraid of homosexuals simply because they're homosexuals. They just don't like them because they think they're icky.

Again, if it was merely because the murderers were afraid that they caught HIV, they would've said that instead.

EDIT: I'd like to add to this point that if these guys were careless enough to have sex with some girl they had just met, I'm willing to bet that they weren't too worried about catching an STD from her to begin with, nor were they thinking much about this risk after they found out she was a he.

Tell me you wouldn't panic if stabbed with a hypodermic needle that had been used by someone in a risk group.

I would panic if stabbed with a hypodermic needle used by anyone. It wouldn't put me at ease one bit to know that the needle was used by an affluent, straight, White male — and it wouldn't make me panic more if it was used by a gay male.

If informed, would you avoid that risk?

Read what I just said again, and your question will be answered.

It would be harder to argue that a black person could disguise his colour, though I doubt one would feel a need.

They probably wouldn't feel a need nowadays, but in the past, lighter-colored Black people would try to pass off as White, because life for Blacks was very tough back then. Also, may I remind you of Michael Jackson?

It may be a little far off, but think about it in the context of several years ago, before the Civil Rights movement and before MLK Jr. I think it's an analogy worth thinking about.

It cannot be anymore irrational than dressing like a woman and placing yourself at the mercy of two men who think you are the real deal.

I don't think anyone is denying that she could've been more open, or wiser — but a murder is a murder, and I hardly think being a biological male is an acceptable provokation.

And what of sexual encounters such as this? What is your wisdom where this is concerned. What advice might you offer to a transvestite on the prowl?

Before I answer your question, are we talking about a transsexual, or a transvestite? Transsexuals feel they should've been born as the other sex, while transvestites simply find sexual gratification in dressing as the other sex. They are separate things, although I wouldn't doubt there are people who are both.

Now, to answer your question, I would tell then to avoid risky situations, such as having sex with someone who might kill them if they figure them out. There are much safer environments where they could pursue sexual encounters. And of course, I'd tell them to always use protection.

I'm not excusing murder. It is a very unfortunate thing.

I'm sure you're not. I just don't see why the seriousness of a crime should be reduced for the reason being discussed, and I also don't know how someone could see why.

 

[sniffy]

Murder is murder. Killing a person because he or she appears different,or behaves in a way that you wouldn't or don't particularly like should be regarded as murder. Unless in self defense due to immediate threat of serious harm.

 

[Bowser]

Murder is murder. Killing a person because he or she appears different,or behaves in a way that you wouldn't or don't particularly like should be regarded as murder. Unless in self defense due to immediate threat of serious harm.

I agree. However, we might see how it could be considered aggravated murder.

EDIT: I'd like to add to this point that if these guys were careless enough to have sex with some girl they had just met, I'm willing to bet that they weren't too worried about catching an STD from her to begin with, nor were they thinking much about this risk after they found out she was a he.

That might be true, but throwing a male into the mix does increase the probability. Anonymous sex is risky stuff by nature, I would agree.

I think we agree that this death was murder; however, there should be recognition that deception was also in play. Did he deserve to die? I don't believe so.

Before I answer your question, are we talking about a transsexual, or a transvestite? Transsexuals feel they should've been born as the other sex, while transvestites simply find sexual gratification in dressing as the other sex. They are separate things, although I wouldn't doubt there are people who are both.

I wont split hairs over this. It was a seventeen-year-old boy who was masquerading as a girl and then presented himself as such for sexual interaction.

I would tell then to avoid risky situations, such as having sex with someone who might kill them if they figure them out. There are much safer environments where they could pursue sexual encounters. And of course, I'd tell them to always use protection.

Honesty about their true gender would be a good start, too.

I just don't see why the seriousness of a crime should be reduced for the reason being discussed, and I also don't know how someone could see why.

My frustration is that everyone wants to dance around the role this kid played in his own death.

 

[wesmorris]

wow I thought that godhatesfags thing was a joke at first. goddamn. scary shit. i'd think god would hate those who speak for him without his approval. maybe he'll be getting his smite on yo - and smite the "faghaters". i doubt it. *sigh* god would have to be real and tangible or something to throw down like that.

disturbing bastards out there.

wow, i just read some more and omfg. what a shitload of highly dangerous whackjobs. sheeeeeeeezus.

 

[Tiassa]

Non compos mentis

Short consideration: I think we should grant some credibility to the gay-panic defense, and if it is sufficient to acquit a suspect, that acquittal should be for reasons of insanity; such defendants are not psychiatrically competent to give any reasonable guarantee or mere assertion of the safety of those around them.

Give the haters what they want and what they deserve: remand them to psychiatric institutions and make them face up to their demons. It may be the only way to reasonably address such deviance.

Really, given the way Christians talk, write, and behave, should I be allowed to kill a Christian in a "Christ-panic"? After all, such malevolent people are trying to brainwash and blackmail me. Given the influence and access Chrisitans have in American society, they are a greater threat to the security and stability of our communities than any Muslim extremist.

Include gay-panic as a psychiatric defense. Make those who wish to excuse themselves by blaming other people for their own inability to cope admit what they are: non compos mentis.

Seriously, should female rape survivors be allowed to kill any man that hits on them? Would we find that state of mind sane?

* * *​

Re: black people disguising their color.

We need not invoke Michael Jackson, but it is worth pointing out that in the 1990s it became fashionable among Asian-Americans to have their eyes surgically rounded in order to "be more like everybody else", which is, of course, the advice given me by a white man who was my elementary-school principal when I was in 10. Getting beaten for your ethnicity? Just "be like everybody else". No wonder Asian-Americans took so well to the idea of hiding their ethnicity. I haven't seen statistics lately, but I would hope that fashion has passed us by.

Re: HIV risk.

Why is it that whenever anyone raises the issue of homosexual HIV risk, they seem to fail to consider that closeted behavior is of higher risk? Gay men in the closet behave more impulsively and with less consideration to their own health or that of others. IV drug users see transmission rates fall where there are needle exchanges. Hello? Is it just easier for homophobes to keep hating what they fear instead of learning about it? Know thy enemy? If you're going to hate something, at least know what it is you're hating. Oh, wait. Silly me. Being rational about something is counterintuitive to hate.