Hate Crime Laws are Stupid

Baron Max said:
Yep, that's what the gov of Iran
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I know how desperate you are when you have to resort to using Iran for comparison. The UK has hate speech laws, and is nothing like Iran, Max.

See how well you're trained?
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How well we are trained? While _you_ sit there with your hands on the wheel in case a cop shoots you during a traffic stop? Please Max, some perspective.

See why the cops don't need guns in the UK?
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Because we have strict guns laws, gun crime is rare, and the cops don't need guns?

Yeah, y'all just do whatever the gov says ...
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Where do you get that idea? It's not based in fact Max, that's just in your head.

In a few years, the gov will take away a some more of your freedoms
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Max, I understand in some states of the USA you can't even buy beer on a Sunday, yet you think you are free? Where does that illusion come about? Oh, because you got told you were free, and believed what you were told! The irony!

Don't need no stinkin' freedom anyway! As long as the gov gives its citizens want they need, who needs them stinkin' freedoms?

Baron Max
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What extra freedom do you think you have Max? Why do you think you are in less danger of losing what you have? It doesn't seem to have sunk into your head that you do not actually have full 'freedom of speech' and you never have. I have cited examples of where it is curtailed. You accept these restrictions, well, because you have to. Freedom in society is necessarily limited Max. Stop being disingenuous and admit that.
 
PHlog: Max, I understand in some states of the USA you can't even buy beer on a Sunday, yet you think you are free? Where does that illusion come about? Oh, because you got told you were free, and believed what you were told! The irony!
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Alcohol is prohibited from sale at certain hours of the day not only on sunday. What is that supposed to mean?
 
phlogistician said:
I know how desperate you are when you have to resort to using Iran for comparison.
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A comparison is a comparison, has nothing to do with desperation about anything. Why would I be desperate?

phlogistician said:
How well we are trained? While _you_ sit there with your hands on the wheel in case a cop shoots you during a traffic stop?
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Yep, cops shoot people during traffic stops all the time in the USA. We're used to it and accept it, so the news media doesn't even cover such minor things anymore. Yeah, you're right ...sorry that I forgot that little issue.

phlogistician said:
Because we have strict guns laws, gun crime is rare, and the cops don't need guns?
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Yep, potential criminals and criminals always follow the strict laws of all nations, but especially they follow the UK's laws, right?

phlogistician said:
Where do you get that idea? It's not based in fact Max, that's just in your head.
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You said as much in your earlier post. You said "...we don't get nervous armed cops telling us to keep our hands of the steering wheel when we get pulled over." See? A cop tells you to do something, you do it.

phlogistician said:
...you do not actually have full 'freedom of speech' and you never have. .... Freedom in society is necessarily limited Max.
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I agree, but that doesn't mean that I should just keep on accepting more and more limitations to my freedoms without complaint. Apparently you'll keep on making excuses until all of your freedoms are gone. I'm not planning to follow your example.

The "hate crimes" laws are just more in a long, long line of restrictions and limitations of our freedoms. You seem to gladly accept it ...and even complain and ridicule me for NOT accepting it so readily as you.

"Hate crimes" laws are not only stupid, but they're unnecessary, unwarranted limitations of our Constitutional freedoms.

Baron Max
 
jpappl said:
I think that the idea of hate crime is it is essentially pre-meditated.

Pre-meditated murder is treated different than a fight where someone got killed for example.

It should be legal to hate whomever you wish, but you don't get to beat the crap out of them. That should be assault regardless. But the pre-meditated part typically makes it worse in the laws eye.
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But hate crimes aren't necessarily pre-meditated. At least not in the sense that the term is normally used.

It's entirely possible that a crime motivated by hatred could also be a spur of the moment thing. Like two guys who hate people of a certain race are on their way home from a bar when they just happen to come across a person of that particular race and decide to kick his or her ass.
 
Acid,

Like two guys who hate people of a certain race are on their way home from a bar when they just happen to come across a person of that particular race and decide to kick his or her ass.
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If they decide to kick their ass because of the other persons race, that would be a hate crime.

I understand your point that a racist, for example could be threatened and have to fight back and might kill the other person, but that isn't what a hate crime is about. That's just self defense.

But the act of attacking someone, just because of their race is pre-meditated.
 
jpappl said:
Acid,



If they decide to kick their ass because of the other persons race, that would be a hate crime.

I understand your point that a racist, for example could be threatened and have to fight back and might kill the other person, but that isn't what a hate crime is about. That's just self defense.

But the act of attacking someone, just because of their race is pre-meditated.
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A pre-meditated crime is one that's planned out in advance. The crime in the hypothetical situation I gave wasn't planned out in advance, even though it would still be classified as a hate-crime.
 
John99 said:
Alcohol is prohibited from sale at certain hours of the day not only on sunday. What is that supposed to mean?
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Why aren't you 'free' to buy it when you want? You live in 'The land of the free' supposedly, so why do you put up with being controlled over something like that?
 
Baron Max said:
"Hate crimes" laws are not only stupid, but they're unnecessary, unwarranted limitations of our Constitutional freedoms.

Baron Max
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Max, you do not have freedom of speech. Get that into your head. What you can say, and to whom, is already limited.

I can't understand why anyone would desire the freedom to be a bigot, unless they were a bigot. In which case, you need therapy.
 
phlogistician said:
Why aren't you 'free' to buy it when you want?
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I could care less. I dont buy alcohol to drink at home, in some states you cant get a drink after 1am.

You live in 'The land of the free' supposedly, so why do you put up with being controlled over something like that?
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Because i am not n imbecile.:shrug:

Also, I live in Guatemala.
 
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phlogistician said:
Max, you do not have freedom of speech. Get that into your head. What you can say, and to whom, is already limited.
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So adding more (and more and more and more...) limitations is no big deal? And what then ....the gov can continue limit our freedoms, more and more, until Phlog finally says that it's enough? :D

Sorta' like the way Hitler whittled away at the freedoms and rights of Germans in the 1930s? And you'd like that to happen in the USA right now?

Hell, Phlog, while you're at it, since we're not allowed to own nuclear bombs, they may as well go the extra mile and take away our guns, too, huh? No big deal ...just adding a tiny bit more to the existing laws? ...LOL!

Baron Max
 
phlogistician said:
Why do you wish to keep the freedom to be a bigot Max?
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Ya' know, Phlog, you're right. I just hadn't thought about it like that. I should be more selfish and only try to protect the laws of freedom that I use, fuck all the other people of the nation! You're right...

I don't use that stinkin' "Right to assembly" law, so let's do away with it. Don't need no assembly bullshit ...we have telephones and the Inter-fuckin'-net, so ....let's get rid of the freedom of assembly. I don't use it, fuck it, we don't need it.

And freedom of worship? Hell, I don't need that freedom, so screw it, let's just git rid of it.

Thanks, Phlog, I feel so much better now ...don't have to worry about helping others protect rights that they might want! Fuck 'em, let 'em fight their own damned battles. Thanks, Phlog! :D

Baron Max
 
phlogistician said:
Max, you do not have freedom of speech. Get that into your head. What you can say, and to whom, is already limited.

I can't understand why anyone would desire the freedom to be a bigot, unless they were a bigot. In which case, you need therapy.
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It's only slightly limited for practical reasons, where your speech would cause direct harm, as if you commanded your dog to attack someone. In most other ways it is not limited.
 
madanthonywayne said:
A recent story about an 8th grade honor student being savagely beaten highlighted the idiocy of hate crime laws:
What began as an innocent mistake ended in a vicious attack on a local honor student.

Police said as many as 11 students beat up an eighth-grader honor student in an apparent case of revenge. The victim, who is Hispanic, suffered severe injuries, and it was possible he may lose sight in one eye. It is not believed, however, that he was the victim of a hate crime. Police said the student who threw the first punch was also Hispanic, and the other students all come from diverse backgrounds.

The incident, which occurred near the Janis Dismus Middle School school soccer field, was so violent that 13-year-old David Muneton needed reconstructive surgery to his face to correct several broken bones.

His friends at the Janis Dismus Middle School in Englewood are stunned.

"It's so hard. … I'm his best friend," Denise Melendez said before breaking down in tears.

Police have arrested seven students from both the middle school and high school, charging them with aggravated assault. The youngest one is just 12 years old.

Investigators said the teenagers jumped Muneton on Friday as he walked home from school to get back at him for an earlier incident during which the eighth-grader accidentally hit a girl with a basketball.​
CBS​
So, he may lose vision in one eye and will require facial recontruction surgery BUT; at least he was beaten by a racially diverse gang of punks. Thank God for that. I'll bet he was thinking, as his face was literally shattered by the violent attack, at least this isn't a hate crime!
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What the hell is your point?

That anytime someone from a minority is hit for any reason it should be a hate crime?

Or that they are idiotic because those kids werent charged with a hate crime?
 
Your answer is buried in the discussion ... somewhere

Fedr808 said:

What the hell is your point?
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See:


There are others, but those are distilled as a quote-and-response discussion; an underlying issue has been addressed, and much of the rest of the thread pertains to the notion of hate crimes in general. The general discussion has moved past the point you're inquiring about.
 
Acid Cowboy said:
Why do you wish to outlaw certain opinions, phlog?
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I don't. I just think that people assembling into groups, waving placards with defamatory remarks, and threatening other groups with violence, should be illegal.

It's not about the freedom to express an opinion, it's about threatening behaviour, see?
 
So if an old guy is dawdling along and sees a bunch of little hoodlums hanging around the street corner, and finds them threatening...?
 
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