Haitians thank God rather than rescue workers

[Enmos]

Moral of the story, god helps those who help themselves"

Ah thanks, for that 'story'. I think I've heard it before but slightly different
The funny thing is that if you help yourself God doesn't have to help you. And yet he is given the credit.

 

[Enmos]

You're right however its the nature of calamity to more effectively erode illusion than good times.

lol!

 

[Enmos]

Same reasons Americans thank God instead of the people responsible.

No, really. I know a guy who once ran marathons. He got up early, trained, went to work, went training again, came home, ignored his kids, annoyed his wife, went to bed, and then got up to do it all over again. For months. And then he ran his first marathon. To this day, he truly believes that he never ran a marathon, but that Jesus did. None of them. I mean, he only did a few before he decided to leave his wife, shack up with a cougar, get herpes, and move to Indiana, but, yeah. Even after all that, he still believes that he didn't run the marathon.

And if you ever watch American televangelists, you'll find such sentiments are not uncommon. People putting in all sorts of labor and toil, and apparently it's all "God's work", so people send in their money. Because it's God asking, and not other people.

I don't think either of us could, with a straight face, assert that Haitian society is as generally well-educated as, say, American, Dutch, German, or English societies. I find nothing odd that an exceptionally poor and abused people should have a superstitious worldview that resembles the outlook of many of my lesser-educated American neighbors.

Thanks for that nuanciation (that's a word, right?), Tiassa. Of course it happens everywhere. This is just an example.

Yes, it is often embarrassing when other people fail to live up to the standards one assigns them. But, at least, it's an internal embarrassment. And, heck, if it was really that embarrassing, would you really be confessing the embarrassment? Indeed, there are some humiliations I happily endure. You know, like wild nights drinking make for fun, but often embarrassing stories. Or the time I learned how difficult it is to get pequin off your hands. Others I prefer to keep hidden. I don't know where this falls in your personal spectrum, though.

I really do think that's a different kind of embarrassment altogether.
What I'm speaking of is feeling embarrassment for something someone else does and what you think that someone should be embarrassed for but isn't.
I don't know the English term for it, but we call that 'plaatsvervangende schaamte' here.
Not that it's important to the topic.

I think if you spent even a little time studying theology, this wouldn't confuse you so much. The earthquake is a test from God; the rescue an acknowledgment of faith or a preservation to learn a future lesson.

Yes, I know. But why? They are clearly faulty assumptions.

It's tragic that every Haitian is so blind in their faith, kind of like it's ridiculous how everyone who protests health care carries signs denouncing white slavery.

You need to help me out here.

More reasonably, I don't know how the media works where you are, but in the States, reporters look around for the most sensational or dramatic thing they can find, and that often—usually—means finding the biggest dolt in the crowd.

I know. But I saw it several times and they weren't focusing on it at all.
I even found this article that shows that it happens on a bigger than personal scale as well:
http://www.examiner.com/x-28320-Wor...n-churches-amid-what-looks-like-an-apocalypse
I guess I'm really just wondering how the theist mind works, as their behavior sometimes seems so alien to me. This is not an attack of any kind, by the way. I'm genuinely looking to understand.

And, of course, when the drama—the rescue from the rubble—is over, the cameras go elsewhere, looking for other things. It is inappropriate to conclude that Haitians aren't, at some point, thanking the resuce workers.

Alright, it kind of is. My apologies to anyone I might have offended.

 

[Norsefire]

It's easy to understand, Enmos. They believe that God sent them help; thus, they thank God.

Easy.

 

[Enmos]

It's easy to understand, Enmos. They believe that God sent them help; thus, they thank God.

Easy.

Why do they think that God sent them help rather than the organizations that actually organized the help?
Why do they think it's God that's helping them when it's clearly the rescue workers that are helping them?
God is nowhere in sight.
And it stands to reason, from a theists perspective, that God caused the earthquake in the first place.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't think you can understand it, Enmos

In Urdu we have a saying, "neki kar, dariya mein dal". If you do a good deed, cast it into the sea; you're not the actor, only the medium.

Many of those rescue workers are sent. They don't come for the thanks

 

[Enmos]

I don't think you can understand it, Enmos

In Urdu we have a saying, "neki kar, dariya mein dal". If you do a good deed, cast it into the sea; you're not the actor, only the medium.

Many of those rescue workers are sent. They don't come for the thanks

I cannot understand why someone would think of themselves as, effectively, an empty shell guided by the hand of God.
What's the reasoning behind it? They can make decisions for themselves, right? They can choose to help someone without intervention from a higher power, no?
To me, there is something very depressing about their way of thinking. They must think humans are inherently evil or something and can only do good if some unknowable force makes them do it.

 

[S.A.M.]

No thats not how it works. It more about pragmatism. When you help someone, you don't do it with expectations. You don't hang around waiting for the effusive thanks or the award. You don't do it for them, you do it for yourself. You're simply the person who happened to be there, at that time and place. It was your karma.

Similarly when you get help, you are the recipient of that karma - so you thank God for it. Its a good reminder to pass it on.

Its why a lot of Eastern philosophy is based on such principles. You don't hold back a good deed even if its an enemy, you're there as the medium, there are no personal considerations in being selfless. [see? self-less]

 

[Enmos]

No thats not how it works. It more about pragmatism. When you help someone, you don't do it with expectations. You don't hang around waiting for the effusive thanks or the award. You don't do it for them, you do it for yourself. You're simply the person who happened to be there, at that time and place. It was your karma.

Similarly when you get help, you are the recipient of that karma - so you thank God for it. Its a good reminder to pass it on.

Its why a lot of Eastern philosophy is based on such principles. You don't hold back a good deed even if its an enemy, you're there as the medium, there are no personal considerations in being selfless. [see? self-less]

I think you missed a post of mine: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2471030&postcount=5
I don't expect thanks, but I find it insulting if they start to thank someone else for it. Seems like bad form to me. The 'someone else' doesn't deserve any thanks because he didn't do anything. Alright, I understand that's not how they think..

 

[Enmos]

It's almost as bad as when someone takes credit for something you did.
Suppose I anonymously donate $5000 to a good cause.
The workers there say "Wow! Who donated that much money?"
It makes the news.
Someone else 'admits' it was him and takes the credit.

True, I didn't want any thanks. I donated it anonymously.
But there is something vile about seeing someone else take (get) credit for something they didn't do.
Of course I think God didn't do it because I don't believe in his existence. And 'they' do.
But still..
It just seems to me like they are substituting reality (direct evidence) for something without evidence. And that is pretty irrational and unintentionally rude in this case.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you missed a post of mine: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2471030&postcount=5

No I didn't. I think the concept is just a little bit out of the way you seem to gauge things in life.

Why do we blame people rather than God? Because its understood that opportunities are always there for people to do the right thing, if they have the right motivations. If people make the choice to look the other way, thats not Gods fault.

Let me explain it from my religious POV since I am most familiar with it:

In Islam, we believe that creating a community is based on pragmatism, compassion and the distribution of social amenities to those who do not possess it. Social justice is absolutely crucial to religion in Islam. From the very first page on the Qur'an to the very last one, it is reiterated, over and over and over that helping those in need is one of the primary obligations of a Muslim. We have hadeeths telling us of sinners who will be forgiven because they gave a bowl of water to a dog, of the high stature of those who do the right thing and the honest thing, even when it causes them to lose everything they materially possess.

So no Muslim at least can be unaware of his social obligations. Islam looks down upon theological speculations [called zannah, or whimsy] over the struggle to build a just society [called jihad]. If there is want in the community, its not because God wants to punish you, its because you put self indulgence before your social obligations. So you blame people. If however, you do your duty, and provide aid and succour, then you have done Gods work and both the rescuer and the rescued thank God for the opportunity to do his work.

In fact you can see in any society, where people put personal gains over community welfare, that society is doomed, not because God hates them or whatever, but because they haven't followed his rules. Even in a lab, we follow protocol. If we follow it correctly, thats not an achievement, thats an obligation. If we mess it up or ignore it and our experiment blows up in the face, thats not the fault of the protocol. When you didn't follow it, it was your mistake.

 

[Enmos]

No I didn't. I think the concept is just a little bit out of the way you seem to gauge things in life.

Why do we blame people rather than God? Because its understood that opportunities are always there for people to do the right thing, if they have the right motivations. If people make the choice to look the other way, thats not Gods fault.

Wait a minute!
If people do something good it's Gods doing. Doesn't that mean that if someone does something bad it is also Gods doing?
How come people are personally responsible if they do something bad, but not if they do something good??

Let me explain it from my religious POV since I am most familiar with it:

In Islam, we believe that creating a community is based on pragmatism, compassion and the distribution of social amenities to those who do not possess it. Social justice is absolutely crucial to religion in Islam.

Isn't it social justice to give credit where credit is due?

From the very first page on the Qur'an to the very last one, it is reiterated, over and over and over that helping those in need is one of the primary obligations of a Muslim. We have hadeeths telling us of sinners who will be forgiven because they gave a bowl of water to a dog, of the high stature of those who do the right thing and the honest thing, even when it causes them to lose everything they materially possess.

Why is it stressed over and over if the only thing that is responsible for it is something you can't control? Namely, God.

So no Muslim at least can be unaware of his social obligations. Islam looks down upon theological speculations [called zannah, or whimsy] over the struggle to build a just society [called jihad].

This is about not expecting thanks, which is not a point in this thread.

If there is want in the community, its not because God wants to punish you, its because you put self indulgence before your social obligations.

Not necessarily true. One can be teh embodiment of goodness and there will still be want in the community.

So you blame people. If however, you do your duty, and provide aid and succour, then you have done Gods work and both the rescuer and the rescued thank God for the opportunity to do his work.

So are you saying that people can't do anything good without divine intervention?

 

[S.A.M.]

I gave the example of the lab because I figured you'd relate to a more literal example. I can't really explain it any better than I already have/

 

[Enmos]

In fact you can see in any society, where people put personal gains over community welfare, that society is doomed, not because God hates them or whatever, but because they haven't followed his rules. Even in a lab, we follow protocol. If we follow it correctly, thats not an achievement, thats an obligation. If we mess it up or ignore it and our experiment blows up in the face, thats not the fault of the protocol. When you didn't follow it, it was your mistake.

I gave the example of the lab because I figured you'd relate to a more literal example. I can't really explain it any better than I already have/

You must have edited? I didn't see that before..

If a lab-worker achieves something amazing, you don't praise the protocol, you praise the lab-worker. Right?
Anyhow, I think it's interesting that you compare God with lab protocols. Can you elaborate on that comparison?

Edit: Also, could you, please, at least answer the last question in post 32?

 

[S.A.M.]

So are you saying that people can't do anything good without divine intervention?

No I'm saying that doing the right thing is not an achievement, its what you're supposed to do.

Do you think you deserve to be applauded for being honest? Shouldn't that be the status quo?

 

[Enmos]

No I'm saying that doing the right thing is not an achievement, its what you're supposed to do.

Do you think you deserve to be applauded for being honest? Shouldn't that be the status quo?

Yes, but I see you are forgetting post 5 again. I'm not expecting thanks.
This is about someone getting credit for something he didn't do.

And if God really did sent those rescue workers, didn't he also do what he was supposed to do? And he does deserve thanks?

 

[S.A.M.]

Only if you worship him and aim to please him, I suppose. I tend to think God understands that people need humility to look beyond themselves. Doesn't hurt to remind them, once in a while.

 

[Enmos]

Only if you worship him and aim to please him, I suppose. I tend to think God understands that people need humility to look beyond themselves. Doesn't hurt to remind them, once in a while.

Sorry, but then God seems like an arrogant ass to me.
But then he did create humans in his image, so I shouldn't be surprised.

How do you look upon appreciation for one's partner because what he/she does for his/her partner?
Is it wrong to let your appreciation for your partner, because of what he/she is doing for you, be known to him/her because it is just what he/she is supposed to do? Because it's what the status quo should be?

 

[S.A.M.]

You mean, should one be grateful to ones partner for not beating them?

That kind of thing? And thank them for it?

I don't know about other faiths, but in Islam a marriage is a contract, if you break the rules, you can break the contract.

But if you follow the rules, you don't get an award.

 

[Enmos]

You mean, should one be grateful to ones partner for not beating them?

That kind of thing? And thank them for it?

No, I meant: Should one appreciate one's partner for being there for them and being good to them, etc?
You say: "No, they are just doing what they are supposed to do."
That is what you're saying, right?

When is it ever appropriate to thank someone?
I think the way of thinking you laid out here leads to negativity; only blaming people for bad things they do, but never appreciating them for the good they do.