Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

[Buffalo Roam]

but to own one, is a license needed?

You don't need a license to on a plane, of a car, read the news, it happens all the time some one is picked up for not having a license to operate a car, and they are the owner, and either didn't have a license, or had it revoked, I just saw a story the other week about a pilot with out a license who had a accident with his plane, and during the investigation it was discovered he didn't have a pilots license.

 

[iceaura]

- If you own a gun you have to keep it locked away when not in use. The ammunition needs to be locked away separately

A gun being employed for garden varmint control or other such defense of property is always in use.

The principle of arms race is a costly one. Both parties invest heavily in the arms, while at the same time both have reduced resources to invest in other areas, and in case of gun control, both parties suffer from the mental consequences of the arms race.

People are not as stupid as governments. They stop when their objective is achieved - which is pretty quick and pretty cheap, for those who just want a gun for defense. There is no such arms race in the US, after 150 years - it's still just handguns and shotguns, some criminals with 'em and some without, usually with respect to the crime in view rather than the armament status of the target.

From this perspective we have to examine what these functions are and focus the gun control laws on them.

From the perspective of people in the US who value their ordinary civil rights, we first establish the principle that the legitimate gun owner is the one who defines what those functions are.

I'm sure that there is a gun control option possible in the USA that will fulfill the function of the gun in the American society and at the same time reduce the illegal use of guns.

There is a third factor - the proper role of the government in American society as it is. We are not debating the introduction of firearms into a situation without them.

 

[The Devil Inside]

You don't need a license to on a plane, of a car, read the news, it happens all the time some one is picked up for not having a license to operate a car, and they are the owner, and either didn't have a license, or had it revoked, I just saw a story the other week about a pilot with out a license who had a accident with his plane, and during the investigation it was discovered he didn't have a pilots license.

this was my point.....why should a license be needed for me to own ANY type of firearm? there is no purpose. if i want to hurt someone, i could do it with a car (i dont have a license, as a matter of fact). i could do it with a thrown stone.

in fact...with a duffel bag full of jagged stones, i could kill/maim just as many people as i could with a shotgun. its insanity that people support gun control laws. they are unconstitutional, immoral, and serve only to disarm citizenry so that they have no voice against government tyranny.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

This is under scrutiny of regular unannounced controls.

Bzzzt! Wrong! Ain't no goddamned government goons walking into MY house without probable cause, announced or not. I don't even have a gun, but when they start doing that I'm sure as hell going to buy one and it will not be registered or unloaded. They're only about ten years away from midnight searches for donuts made with transfatty acids and gay people with wedding rings. Government is too big for its britches.

Needless to say I would also be talking about a society that has some kind of . . . civilized police force.

You won't find that in America. Don't forget that we're only a few generations out of the Wild West. Our police are cowboys who shoot first and ask questions later. I'm living in our capital city, which you think might be the most civilized place in the country, and the cops around here are absolute Visigoths. They use the citizens for target practice, and when they're driving they use them for pylons.

Criminals do not need guns if there are no guns in a society. Gun use increases among criminals when guns become more available.

I'm not talking about guns for criminals, I'm talking about guns for the other three hundred million of us. We have seen what happens to peaceful, disarmed populations and we prefer the alternative. Our country was founded on the principle that if your government gets taken over by assholes then by gawd you can just start shooting them. And we still believe in that. I think it's one of the reasons the two-term limit for presidents passed so easily. Bush would be fool enough to run for a third term and somebody would finally shoot him.

I'm still expecting that some gun nuts will object to the ones I've listed. And my theory is there'll be more objections from Americans than from non-Americans.

James, I'm not a gun nut. I hate guns. I feel uncomfortable around them. I've only fired a small handgun twice and a .22 rifle twice in my entire life, about forty years ago. They give me the creeps. But people who want power and will say anything to get it are the only ones who make it to the top in a government whose elections are popularity contests. I am far more afraid of those people than I am of my neighbors with guns. I'm satisfied that enough Americans have guns that the police and National Guard will think twice before starting those house-to-house searches for gay people, atheists, pit bulls, tobacco, and people speaking Spanish. If I didn't think there were enough, I'd grit my teeth and get one for myself.

Hmm, I think Burma has instituted all of those laws and rules, haven't they? And look what's happening in Burma now.

Remember the bumper stickers after "Prague Spring"? "Czechs registered THEIR guns."

Why not try to convince me to give up the Constitution?

They don't have to, they skipped that step. FDR began using it for toilet paper in 1934 and it hasn't truly been the Law of the Land since then. When the Legislative, Executive and Judicial Branches all conspire to take away our rights, the Constitution becomes irrelevant. My parents remembered when the government had to go through the rather daunting formality of getting a Constitutional Amendment enacted before they could actually start arresting people for drinking alcohol. And thirteen years later the people rose up and repealed it. Today they just decide to start arresting people for using this era's popular drugs, the rubber-stamp Supreme Court okays it, and there's no recourse.

No, Dammit!!! I'm not going to talk to anyone about gun control until you get rid of all of the guns that the criminals have and use against the general public on a daily basis! When you have all of those guns, and no way for the criminals to get guns, then maybe, just maybe, I'll talk to you.

I am still not all that concerned about the criminals with guns. I know they're out there, but statistically I'm far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a violent criminal. I remain concerned about an out-of-control government, and that's why I want a bunch of guns in my neighborhood.

no because an educated population will not allow its government to become tyranical.

So what do you do if your fellow citizens become effectively uneducated? The average college graduate in the U.S. reads at what my generation called the sixth-grade level. There is such a bias against science and scholarship in general that political candidates are queueing up to insist that they don't "believe" in evolution.

Times have changed slightly and Finland had to give up vast tracts of their land and pay damages.

That's only because the U.S. decided to join WWII on the side of the Soviets and that side won. For some inscrutable reason we liked Stalin and Mao better than Hitler and Tojo. Go figure.

 

[The Devil Inside]

hitler declared war on the usa 4 days after pearl harbor.
thats why we sided against him.

 

[Michael]

I won a gun when I was 12 at a magic show. 410 shotgun. Perfect for a kid. My family does a lot of hunting. Hunting provided us with most of our meat in the winter. Deer mainly. My grandmother used to take about 12 deer a season.

When I moved to the city I had guns pointed at me on three occasions. Once walking with a 12 pack (I kept walking and the guy left), once in a limo, and once at a party where some people were selling coke. The last time made me about shit my pants.

In the city I once saw a guy get his head blow clear off his shoulders - or so it seemed (I was just driving by) I moved from the USA a month later and my neighbor had his house shot full of holes (he was a cop) with a machine gun.

I support gun control. I don't know if it would help but I'd like to think it would.

 

[James R]

Update on the poll:

So far we have 21 responses from Americans, and 76% are against the gun control measures I suggested.

In comparison we have 11 responses from non-Americans, of which 82% are in favour of gun control.

What more needs to be said?

These statistics alone should make people think.

 

[nietzschefan]

Update on the poll:

So far we have 21 responses from Americans, and 76% are against the gun control measures I suggested.

In comparison we have 11 responses from non-Americans, of which 82% are in favour of gun control.

What more needs to be said?

These statistics alone should make people think.

Yup always go with the popular vote when determining individual rights. Fucking pommies.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

So far we have 21 responses from Americans, and 76% are against the gun control measures I suggested. In comparison we have 11 responses from non-Americans, of which 82% are in favour of gun control. These statistics alone should make people think.

Yes indeed. I think that people who don't live in America don't know shit about the place.

 

[quadraphonics]

What more needs to be said?

These statistics alone should make people think.

I can't see where this poll demonstrates anything except the obvious fact that Americans favor American gun legislation, while citizens of certain other English-speaking countries favor their own legislation. Maybe for your next trick you can make a poll that shows how Americans are in favor of driving on the right side of the road.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

hitler declared war on the usa 4 days after pearl harbor.
thats why we sided against him.

You must excuse Fraggle Rocker, he is a product of the modern education system.

The funny thing is that the only people who obey any law are the Honest Citizen, till the point is reached were obeying the laws starts to get you hurt or killed, the hurt recover and learn, the dead become object lessons about trusting the government to protect you, then you have a choice, trust the Government to take care of you, and get maimed,mugged, raped and robbed again, or start to break the law your self, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Exhumed]

in fact...with a duffel bag full of jagged stones, i could kill/maim just as many people as i could with a shotgun. its insanity that people support gun control laws. they are unconstitutional, immoral, and serve only to disarm citizenry so that they have no voice against government tyranny.

Perhaps you could get as many in a retirement home, but we sure wouldn't have the same deaths that we had at school shooting if the psychos had used jagged stones. Which is assuming someone would even attempt it, which I doubt.

 

[Exhumed]

You must excuse Fraggle Rocker, he is a product of the modern education system.

:bugeye:

 

[Buffalo Roam]

In the city I once saw a guy get his head blow clear off his shoulders - or so it seemed (I was just driving by) I moved from the USA a month later and my neighbor had his house shot full of holes (he was a cop) with a machine gun.

I support gun control. I don't know if it would help but I'd like to think it would.

You don't know if it would help? You would like to think it would, "uh?" you want to do something that lets some one else decide if you should have the ability to defend your self because you think it might help, everybody screams about the government violating your constitutional rights, and yet you are willing to give up the right of the Second Amendment, a Constitutional Right, that is the guarantor of all the others, the second amendment is the ability to recover your Constitutional Rights should the Government fail to return those right, or just decided that those rights just aren't important, just as many think the Second Amendment isn't a Important enough right in the 21 century,

Scream bloody murder because you think the government is eaves dropping on you, and demand your rights, and then give one away because you think it might help?, Is the Moon Full?, Is this the season of the Lunatic? because it might help? Because It Might Help, Why Not Give All of Your Rights Away? then if the Police think you might commit a crime they can do preventive Police Work and arrest you and take you to Jail, to Keep You From Committing a Crime in the Future, BECAUSE IT MIGHT HELP REDUCE CRIME !!!!!!!

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Exhumed
Registered Senior User (667 posts)
Today, 11:13 PM #93

“ Originally Posted by Buffalo Roam
You must excuse Fraggle Rocker, he is a product of the modern education system. ”

He didn't know that Germany declared War on the United States, it doesn't seem to be considered a important point of History any more.

 

[Exhumed]

He didn't know that Germany declared War on the United States, it doesn't seem to be considered a important point of History any more.

Maybe he did, and maybe it wasn't critical to his point. Perhaps it could be considered that our alignment was already decided before Pearl Harbor. But I don't want to go off topic. The reason I responded to your post is because I think Fraggle is one of our older posters so definitely not a product of modern education.

 

[James R]

Yes indeed. I think that people who don't live in America don't know shit about the place.

I can't see where this poll demonstrates anything except the obvious fact that Americans favor American gun legislation, while citizens of certain other English-speaking countries favor their own legislation. Maybe for your next trick you can make a poll that shows how Americans are in favor of driving on the right side of the road.

Interesting responses. Very defensive. Almost apologies.

Fraggle:

Notice that I didn't specify that these measures would be applied in America. The poll is general. It asks for in-principle support or non-support. There's no need to know "shit" about America to answer the poll. All you need is an opinion about guns.

quadruphonics:

You are quite correct, of course, and that was my point.

Tell me, at what stage do you start to wonder why America is out of step with the rest of the world? At what stage, if any, do you start to care about that?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Tell me, at what stage do you start to wonder why America is out of step with the rest of the world? At what stage, if any, do you start to care about that?

Never. Right and wrong are not determined by a vote.

If the rest of the world wants to disarm itself and leave it's fate to the good graces of a benevelent government, good luck with that. We'll keep our weapons and our right to self defense.

 

[James R]

I have no doubt you will, madanthonywayne.

 

[Hapsburg]

• Ban all automatic weapons from private ownership.
• Require the registration of ownership of all guns and ammunition.
• Require a licence to own a gun privately.
• Require cause to be shown to obtain a gun licence (e.g. farmers, members of shooting clubs).

I disagree with the first and last points.
The first one because an automatic weapon is no more dangerous than any other gun. It should not be singled out, and in fact, is probably safer than pistols for commercial sale.

The last one, because it restricts the freedom of own guns to a small few rather than making it a freedom for all. To me, a freedom is something everyone gets, or no one gets. Otherwise, it's just an extended privilege.