Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

See first post for gun control measures. Are you for or against them?


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quadraphonics:

What you're saying is all very reasonable. I just have this niggling wonder about why you're not equally attacking the posters here (e.g. Mr. G) who are ranting "You can't take our guns away! Gun laws won't be changed until you pull the gun from my cold dead hands!"

Will you take them to task, too?
Two points:

Mr. G need not rant. The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution speaks loudly enough that even you should be able to hear: Gun ownership is our legal right because we say it is until we decide otherwise.

Gun ownership protects us from people like you who would presume to decide for us without our consent.

Gun ownership puts opinions such as yours to the ultimate means test: Are your convictions feeling lucky?

Here's my gun. Take it, if you can.

When your words prove inadequate to the task, what alternative means will you use to overcome ours?

What importance do you place on a good night's sleep?

You fail to appreciate our appreciation for our Constitution.

BTW: the Constitution says nothing about you. ;)
 
Mr. G:

Once again, I can only comment that for somebody who claims not to care what I think, you seem very eager to dispute my point of view.

My point all along is that whatever you think about American gun ownership means nothing to gun-owning Americans.

You speak for all gun-owning Americans now, do you?

Two points:

Mr. G need not rant. The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution speaks loudly enough that even you should be able to hear: Gun ownership is our legal right because we say it is until we decide otherwise.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. Get it?

Gun ownership protects us from people like you who would presume to decide for us without our consent.

I'm not presuming to decide anything for you. I'm trying to get you to think.

Here's my gun. Take it, if you can.

Only from your cold, dead hands. Right? Hmm....

You fail to appreciate our appreciation for our Constitution.

Are you aware that my country's Constitution was, at least in part, influenced by yours?

The framers of the Australian Constitution wisely decided to omit the nuttiness about guns.
 
quadraphonics:

Making pithy/baiting/acerbic statements of one's position is not a big deal; creating a thread to impugn the mentality of an entire nationality is.

This thread started off completely unbiased, as a poll comparing attitudes to guns in the US and elsewhere.

It could only be regarded as an attempt to "impugn the mentality of an entire nationality" if Americans feel that they have something to apologise for in the gun laws in their nation.

One predictable effect of the latter is to polarize the discourse: since Americans rightly sense that identity is being attacked (as opposed to their ideas being debated), they naturally circle the wagons and set about returning fire. You've been around long enough to know this stuff, which implies that you're doing this intentionally. Indeed, evidence of intent abounds, from the very phrasing of the thread title: "US vs. rest of the world" to your admissions that you want to stir up emotions. If you want a conversation where the differences in opinion amongst Americans will surface, then the premise of the thread is going to have to be something other than "what's up with those crazy Americans?"

You're half right. Of course I expected Americans to get all defensive. The question worth asking is: why get defensive if you have nothing to be ashamed of?

Where you're wrong is in assuming this thread aimed to start a conversation on guns where differences of opinion among Americans would surface. Overwhelmingly, Americans support minimal gun control, as the results of the poll show. In this instance, I was more interested in getting Americans to consider why people of other nations do not think the same way as them.

Well, strictly speaking, you're arguing against them having an effective, reliable means to defend themselves from violent attack. Moreover, the statistics on property and violent non-gun crime in Australia (and England) before and after the strengthened gun laws went into effect is pretty strong evidence that you are, indeed, depriving people of a significant means of self-defense. If you consider the extra robbings, beatings and stabbings of innocent people to be a fair price to avoid a Columbine incident, that's fine, but at least admit it. Your efforts to pretend that guns aren't useful for self defense is yet more evidence that you have been guided by ideology rather than reason here.

Ooh, an actual argument about the topic, rather than about my presumed attitudes to Americans. Stop it, or you'll make me have to search for actual statistics and data to back up my point of view! ;)

It's no secret that there are gun nuts in America (and most other places), but these attitudes are far from typical, and are not what drive gun politics in the United States. If you want an example that will illuminate things, look at iceaura. He's to the left of pretty much everybody on pretty much every issue, and yet here he is, arguing on the same side as right-wing reactionaries. Or me, for that matter. I've made it clear that I don't own a gun, and don't plan to ever own a gun, and here I am siding with people who I normally despise. This should provide you with much more insight than any of the predictable responses from Baron Max.

quadraphonics, you are taking an admirable, principled stance here, and I must say I respect you for it. I'll try to be more serious, I promise.
 
ahmm i dont think anyone needs guns there is things like traps or boomerangs and bows and arrows i play with me bow and arrow and i set traps for people coming in me room my room mates are sumtimes light fingered i never needed a gun dont wanna
and i tie fishing line on to things if anyone is near they cant see and bump into the line
makes the tins dingle and loud
next door has a dog and ahmm
just going by experience i dont use weapons just prevention
 
Mr. G:

Once again, I can only comment that for somebody who claims not to care what I think, you seem very eager to dispute my point of view.
You seem to think you're point of view is competitive.

Were it so your point of view might be worthy of dispute.
I'm trying to get you to think.
You're out of your league.
Are you aware that my country's Constitution was, at least in part, influenced by yours?

The framers of the Australian Constitution wisely decided to omit the nuttiness about guns.
Because your nutty intellectual firepower was an accurate predictor of your likely success around real firepower.
 
Mr. G:

Once again, I can only comment that for somebody who claims not to care what I think, you seem very eager to dispute my point of view.



You speak for all gun-owning Americans now, do you?



Yes, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. Get it?



I'm not presuming to decide anything for you. I'm trying to get you to think.



Only from your cold, dead hands. Right? Hmm....



Are you aware that my country's Constitution was, at least in part, influenced by yours?

The framers of the Australian Constitution wisely decided to omit the nuttiness about guns.

acually the second admendment doesn't garnetee private ownership of guns just weapons
 
Judging by the writings of the framers, they clearly meant firearms.

well if you bring that up then they never intended the second admendment to protect invidual gun ownership bears in other writtings of the time they used the phrase bear arms as meaning to serve in the armed forces
 
well if you bring that up then they never intended the second admendment to protect invidual gun ownership bears in other writtings of the time they used the phrase bear arms as meaning to serve in the armed forces

" the right of the people" means the army? Yes it is an individual right. Unless you wish to make the claim that, say, a search warrent is only needed to search a soldiers home.
 
acually the second admendment doesn't garnetee private ownership of guns just weapons
Actually... http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/a-liberals-lame.html
A liberal's lament: The NRA might be right after all

By Jonathan Turley

This term, the Supreme Court may finally take up the Voldemort Amendment, the part of the Bill of Rights that shall not be named by liberals. For more than 200 years, progressives and polite people have avoided acknowledging that following the rights of free speech, free exercise of religion and free assembly, there is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." Of course, the very idea of finding a new individual right after more than two centuries is like discovering an eighth continent in constitutional law, but it is hardly the cause of celebration among civil liberties groups.

Like many academics, I was happy to blissfully ignore the Second Amendment. It did not fit neatly into my socially liberal agenda. Yet, two related cases could now force liberals into a crisis of conscience. The Supreme Court is expected to accept review of District of Columbia v. Heller and Parker v. District of Columbia, involving constitutional challenges to the gun-control laws in Washington.

The D.C. law effectively bars the ownership of handguns for most citizens and places restrictions on other firearms. The District's decision to file these appeals after losing in the D.C. appellate court was driven more by political than legal priorities. By taking the appeal, D.C. politicians have put gun-control laws across the country at risk with a court more likely to uphold the rulings than to reverse them. It has also put the rest of us in the uncomfortable position of giving the right to gun ownership the same fair reading as more favored rights of free press or free speech.

The Framers' intent

Principle is a terrible thing, because it demands not what is convenient but what is right. It is hard to read the Second Amendment and not honestly conclude that the Framers intended gun ownership to be an individual right. It is true that the amendment begins with a reference to militias: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Accordingly, it is argued, this amendment protects the right of the militia to bear arms, not the individual.

Yet, if true, the Second Amendment would be effectively declared a defunct provision. The National Guard is not a true militia in the sense of the Second Amendment and, since the District and others believe governments can ban guns entirely, the Second Amendment would be read out of existence.

Another individual right

More important, the mere reference to a purpose of the Second Amendment does not alter the fact that an individual right is created. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is stated in the same way as the right to free speech or free press. The statement of a purpose was intended to reaffirm the power of the states and the people against the central government. At the time, many feared the federal government and its national army. Gun ownership was viewed as a deterrent against abuse by the government, which would be less likely to mess with a well-armed populace.

Considering the Framers and their own traditions of hunting and self-defense, it is clear that they would have viewed such ownership as an individual right — consistent with the plain meaning of the amendment.

None of this is easy for someone raised to believe that the Second Amendment was the dividing line between the enlightenment and the dark ages of American culture. Yet, it is time to honestly reconsider this amendment and admit that ... here's the really hard part ... the NRA may have been right. This does not mean that Charlton Heston is the new Rosa Parks or that no restrictions can be placed on gun ownership. But it does appear that gun ownership was made a protected right by the Framers and, while we might not celebrate it, it is time that we recognize it.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
To paraphrase JamesR: "...cold, dead hand."
 
well if you bring that up then they never intended the second admendment to protect invidual gun ownership bears in other writtings of the time they used the phrase bear arms as meaning to serve in the armed forces

I read every untrue word.They clearly intended the 2nd ammendment to protect individual rights. Hence the phrase "right of the people" you went from "people" to "armed forces". I merely pointed out the error of your thoughts.
 
I'm not sure where you get the idea that every petty criminal and addict has a gun. That's not the case. And, anyway, there are much better ways to get guns out of the hands of criminals than preventing law-abiding citizens from owning them. For example, the criminal penalties in the United States go way, way up if a gun is involved. Possession of an ounce of marijuana? Not a huge deal. Possession of an ounce of marijuana and a handgun? See you in prison.
Those criminal penalties are not really going to be a deterrent to drug addicts, people with mental health problems, jealous and enraged husbands, those wanting to start a massacre ect.


Y'all foreigners need to get your facts straight. The United States has higher levels of gun crimes than other developed countries, but also lower levels of property crimes. The result is that the total crime rate is roughly the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
So gun crime is higher but other crime is lower. That is beside the point. Maybe your crime rates are not a factor after all. :shrug:

Given that I don't desire to own a gun, for protection or any other reason, and neither do the great majority of my family, friends and acquaitances, I'm going to suggest that you re-think the premise of this question. It may come as a shock to you that the right to bear arms is much more popular amongst Americans than arms themselves.
No your answer does not lead me to rethink the premise of the question.

I understand that changing the law and buying back the guns sounds like your freedom being taken from you. Don’t you think your society would be better place afterwards though? Would the quality of life be so much lower if Americans didn't have the right to buy deadly weapons? It would certainly be higher if there were less weapons for criminals to get their hands on.

Questions are fine. For that matter, spirited debate is also fine. Preaching, condescension and the various argumentative tactics that James R employs are not fine.
You do have higher levels of gun crime and have had some horrible massacres lately. James’ poll did produce interesting results. So what is he doing that is so bad? Oh he is disagreeing with an American law…. How dare he? :eek:

That is what this forum is for.

It is the behavior of some of the Americans that has been poor. Some are not actually debating the topic at all. Instead we have challenges to “try and take our guns away” and childish insults.
 
well i guess if you grew up in a country which always have had guns you can not imagine what it would be like with out them..... i feel so sorry for you all!
 
Those criminal penalties are not really going to be a deterrent to drug addicts, people with mental health problems, jealous and enraged husbands, those wanting to start a massacre ect.

And neither are the criminal penalties you'd attach to all gun ownership. So what's your point? You seem to have this nutty idea that making guns harder to obtain legally is also going to make it harder to obtain them illegaly. There's no basis for this assumption; in fact, almost all guns used in crimes in the United States are obtained illegaly.

Don’t you think your society would be better place afterwards though?

No.

Would the quality of life be so much lower if Americans didn't have the right to buy deadly weapons?

Yes.

It would certainly be higher if there were less weapons for criminals to get their hands on.

Which has nothing to do with disarming law-abiding citizens. It's already illegal for criminals to buy guns, and disarming criminals is far, far cheaper and easier than trying to disarm all the people who aren't criminals.
 
I read every untrue word.They clearly intended the 2nd ammendment to protect individual rights. Hence the phrase "right of the people" you went from "people" to "armed forces". I merely pointed out the error of your thoughts.

what i said was if you want to go by what the framers inteneded and meant when they used the phrase bear arms it was always used to signify milatary service. i dislike that you are trying to say i'm using the phrase right of the people to me armed forces because i'm not even someone with first grade reading comp would know that
 
This thread started off completely unbiased, as a poll comparing attitudes to guns in the US and elsewhere.

If you say so.

It could only be regarded as an attempt to "impugn the mentality of an entire nationality" if Americans feel that they have something to apologise for in the gun laws in their nation.

Yeah, that, or if you read the posts in which you describe Americans as "brainwashed," "nutty," "unreasonable," etc.

You're half right. Of course I expected Americans to get all defensive.

I would characterize the responses of Americans here as largely aggressive. You've pissed several people off, and they're gunning for you. Also, your insistence on characterizing any Americans who disagree with you as "defensive" implies that your intent is to attack them. Certainly, dismissing someone's input as "defensive" is a transparently provacative tactic, and a very cheap one at that.

The question worth asking is: why get defensive if you have nothing to be ashamed of?

I'd hazard that the answer can be found in the answer to this question: "why is the perception of your intent and purpose here at such a variance with your stated aims?"

Where you're wrong is in assuming this thread aimed to start a conversation on guns where differences of opinion among Americans would surface. [...] In this instance, I was more interested in getting Americans to consider why people of other nations do not think the same way as them.

Which is never going to happen in such a polarizing discourse. If you want to get through to people, you need to create a space where they feel that their ideas are given fair hearing, rather than their identities being judged. Otherwise, they're just going to circle the wagons and return fire. And a crucial component in the construction of such a dialogue is reciprocity: it should be as important for you all to understand why Americans do not share your views as the other way around. Otherwise, what you're suggesting is just a euphemism for "preaching to the unwashed Americans." For that matter, even if that is your intent, it's better served by reciprocity: arguing in good faith makes people more likely to sincerely consider what you're saying, and also provides you with the opportunity to learn enough to craft arguments that are relevant and persuasive to Americans.

In contrast, rallying the non-American anti-gun troops does you no good, because they don't get to vote on American gun policies. All you end up doing is hardening the attitudes of the people who *do* have the ability to change American gun policies. And further diminishing the quality of discourse here at SciForums.
 
And neither are the criminal penalties you'd attach to all gun ownership. So what's your point? You seem to have this nutty idea that making guns harder to obtain legally is also going to make it harder to obtain them illegaly. There's no basis for this assumption; in fact, almost all guns used in crimes in the United States are obtained illegaly.
No you don't just change the law, you have a gun buy back scheme where people are given good money for their guns. No that wont cause everyone to disarm but it will motivate a lot of people.

Removing as many guns from the country as possible will make it harder for people to get guns illegally. No you are not going to remove them all but the more you remove the harder it will become to get a gun. You really think that is a nutty idea? Yes you will need to remove a lot of guns before it is effective but it does sound logical.

Ok. So briefly explain to me how criminals and law abiding citizens having guns improves the quality of life in your country.

Which has nothing to do with disarming law-abiding citizens. It's already illegal for criminals to buy guns, and disarming criminals is far, far cheaper and easier than trying to disarm all the people who aren't criminals.
Who cares what is easier and cheaper? We are discussing what is better.
 
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