Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

[nietzschefan]

I'm comfortable.

 

[BenTheMan]

It is crystal clear that your quotation refers to the dialogue supposedly said by Mr. Ahmadinejad.

Well, those, and repeated claims that Israel is an illegitimate state, the fact that Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, the fact that Ahmadinejad repeatedly denies that the Holocaust happened, etc. etc.

You are mistaken terribly if you believe those were his words, because that is deceptively inaccurate on two different accounts. First, the quote actually says: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - not Jews as religious followers and practitioners in general.

Seems pretty obvious to me... It is quite clear that he is not referring to a regime but to the state of Israel.

Secondly, Mahmoud was actually quoting Ayatollah Khomenei, so these weren't even his own words.

And were you pissed off when the pope quoted some ancient Catholic scholar that Islam was a violent religion? If so then you are a hypocrite---does quoting someone else with the same intent all of a sudden make it ok to call for the destruction of Israel, or that Islam is a violent religion?

Let me ask you---do YOU believe that there are gay people in Iran?

 

[BenTheMan]

It is interesting to see how these numbers have broken up. Like in so many other things, it seems to be that Americans are more or less of the same mind on these things, while people from other parts of the world (presumably mostly Europe) have a completely different opinion. To first order, I would expect that thw SciForums membership is at least a decent cross-section of the population of the (developed) world, so I think I trust these results.

Any other comments? james, did you expect something different?

 

[clusteringflux]

I just cast in at 50.00%

HMMMM?

 

[Mr. G]

If my poll in this thread is indicative, the 2nd amendment speaks for around 83% of Americans, which is not all Americans.

By definition, the U.S. Constitution speaks for all U.S. citizens--even those citizens who disagree with its intentions.

I do not presume to speak for America or Americans. You are clearly confused.

You presume to preach to us, as if in our voice.

You are clearly outside your field of expertise.

Your opinions are not compellingly actionable beyond your local horizon.

 

[James R]

When you have something superior to offer, let me know, Mr. G.

 

[Baron Max]

When you have something superior to offer, let me know, Mr. G.

But, James, you're a fuckin' Aussie and yet you're trying to tell Americans how to live and what to do. And you think that makes your silly statements ...superior?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

No, I don't think that, Baron Max.

 

[mountainhare]

But James knows what is best for America, even though he's not actually American.

 

[James R]

But James knows what is best for America, even though he's not actually American.

I know what's best when it comes to rampant gun ownership. You don't have to be a genius to be able to reach the obvious conclusion.

 

[quadraphonics]

I know what's best when it comes to rampant gun ownership.

"Rampant?"

You don't have to be a genius to be able to reach the obvious conclusion.

You do, however, have to be a simpleton to think that said conclusion is obvious.

Which is more probable: that James R's appreciation of this issue is not as penetrating as he would have us believe, or that the entirety of the American polity has been brainwashed and menaced into blindness to the obvious?

 

[James R]

You're American, aren't you, quadraphonics? If you were brainwashed, do you think you'd know?

 

[Mr. G]

You're American, aren't you, quadraphonics? If you were brainwashed, do you think you'd know?

You're the first Aussie I've felt compelled to inform you should take your anti-American bigotry and stick it up your Auss.

I know what's best when it comes to rampant gun ownership. You don't have to be a genius to be able to reach the obvious conclusion.

Thus have you so easily reached an obvious conclusion.

Almost all adult Americans have the legal right to own guns. What you think about that right is your opinion, not our burden.

The gift to us of your obvious genius is your piss in the wind.

 

[quadraphonics]

You're American, aren't you, quadraphonics? If you were brainwashed, do you think you'd know?

I could ask you the same thing. Any individual's perception of their own insight is necessarily suspect. But if we are to believe that your conclusions are as obvious as you say they are, we also must believe that hundreds of millions of Americans suffer from some mental block that prevents them from seeing this. The alternate explanation, on the other hand, only requires us to believe that your perceptions are faulty. Occam's razor strongly recommends the latter option. When we consider how lively the gun debate inside the United States is, we are left even more skeptical of the obviousness of any particular position on the issue.

 

[shaman_]

It's interesting how threatened some people are by an Aussie creating a poll and making a few comments.

“The problem, for you James, is you cannot take away people's rights with a poll”

“Let's see you try to take our arms from us.”

I can only assume that your higher crime rates works on your instincts of self preservation and protection of family, which leads to this aggressive response.

Do you really feel that everyone should have a gun for protection or are you just extremely insulted by the idea of someone from another country questioning your laws? Both?

 

[James R]

Mr. G:

You're the first Aussie I've felt compelled to inform you should take your anti-American bigotry and stick it up your Auss.

What an extreme reaction! This is really getting to you, isn't it?

You know, all I've done is to compare American attitudes to guns to the attitudes of people from other countries, as reflected in the sciforums membership.

How you deduce from that a general "anti-American bigotry" is quite beyond me. I've been to the United States. I like the place. I like many Americans I know. There's a lot to things to admire about America and Americans, but their attitudes to guns unfortunately isn't one of those things.

So, please get some perspective. Just because I don't agree with you on this issue doesn't mean I have some kind of generalised hatred of all things American.

Almost all adult Americans have the legal right to own guns. What you think about that right is your opinion, not our burden.

Yes. Why keep repeating the obvious?

The gift to us of your obvious genius is a piss in the wind.

Please re-read my previous post. You know, the part that started with "You don't have to be a genius..."


quadraphonics:

I could ask you the same thing. Any individual's perception of their own insight is necessarily suspect. But if we are to believe that your conclusions are as obvious as you say they are, we also must believe that hundreds of millions of Americans suffer from some mental block that prevents them from seeing this.

I'm willing to consider that idea. Are you?

Perhaps there is something special about the American psyche which gives so many a mental block on this issue. (Also, in case Mr. G takes offence again, I am well aware that there is a large number of Americans who have perfectly sensible opinions on guns.)

The alternate explanation, on the other hand, only requires us to believe that your perceptions are faulty. Occam's razor strongly recommends the latter option.

But I'm far from the only person pointing to the craziness of the American love of guns.

When we consider how lively the gun debate inside the United States is, we are left even more skeptical of the obviousness of any particular position on the issue.

It's an uphill battle in the United States. One of the msot powerful lobbies in the nation is the National Rifle Association, as I'm sure you're aware. Every step of progress is fought tooth and nail. And then there's the constitutional fallback position of the "it's the law so it must be good" crowd - those like Mr. G. The assumption there seems to be that the Constitution is set in stone forever, and even if existing gun laws are harmful they ought not to be changed, for no other reason than "tradition".

 

[Mr. G]

Mr. G:
What an extreme reaction!

Get a life. It was an extreme suggestion.

This is really getting to you, isn't it?

It takes more than baiting chum to get to me.

...all I've done is to compare American attitudes to guns to the attitudes of people from other countries, as reflected in the sciforums membership.

All I've done is tell you your efforts are wasted motion.

How you deduce from that a general "anti-American bigotry" is quite beyond me.

At least you're honest: brainwashed is not the same thing as braindead.

I've been to the United States. I like the place. I like many Americans I know. There's a lot to things to admire about America and Americans, but their attitudes to guns unfortunately isn't one of those things.

Our Constitutionally protected attitudes toward guns don't require your admiration, or your permission.

Our attitudes towards Aussies, in general, don't require admiration for Aussies presuming America-specific relevance beyond their station.

So, please get some perspective. Just because I don't agree with you on this issue doesn't mean I have some kind of generalised hatred of all things American.

I never implied that your bigotry was generalized. Or hateful. Just stereotypically disrespectful.

Why keep repeating the obvious?

The same reason peanuts are sold in front of the monkey cage.

Please re-read my previous post. You know, the part that started with "You don't have to be a genius..."

I was fairly confident that even this demographic was more likely to snicker at my use of your words against you than they would snicker at your not unpredictable warmed-over use of them against me a second time with even less effect.

How many geniuses does it take to babysit a forum of imbeciles needing to be put in their proper place by their obvious betters?

I'm not seeing Stephen Hawking hanging out here much.

Ah. Your's is a brief history of mime.

 

[quadraphonics]

I'm willing to consider that idea. Are you?

No, of course not. That idea is ludicrous on its face. That's why it is such an good example of how egregiously you've allowed ideology to corrupt your worldview.

I'm willing to consider the idea that reasonable people can disagree on the issue of guns. Are you?

Perhaps there is something special about the American psyche which gives so many a mental block on this issue.

Must be that same special something that led us to rebel against colonialism and drive the foreign tyrants out of our hemisphere. Really, you should be thankful for this, or the tyrant whose heir is still your head of state wouldn't have had any reason to invest in the penal colony that became your country.

But I'm far from the only person pointing to the craziness of the American love of guns.

And yet, your ranks are still microscopic compared to the legions of people who are not convinced Americans are crazy.

It's an uphill battle in the United States. One of the msot powerful lobbies in the nation is the National Rifle Association, as I'm sure you're aware. Every step of progress is fought tooth and nail.

That Americans don't generally share your definition of progress is not proof that they're crazy. The NRA is powerful because huge numbers of people support its efforts. What you may not know is that the NRA (and gun owners more generally) is a crucial component of the American conservationist movement. Without them, it would just be the Sierra Club and some other Birkenstock types, and they'd be completely marginalized and ineffective at the national level. When they team up with the millions of hunters in the United States, however, the result is a formidable lobbying coalition that neither party can afford to ignore. It's clear that you'd trade quite a few gun rights in exchange for fewer Columbines, but how many forests, wetlands, watersheds and other habitats would you destroy?

And then there's the constitutional fallback position of the "it's the law so it must be good" crowd - those like Mr. G. The assumption there seems to be that the Constitution is set in stone forever, and even if existing gun laws are harmful they ought not to be changed, for no other reason than "tradition".

If that's the extent of your understanding of conservatism, it's no wonder your so ineffective at arguing with them.

 

[James R]

Mr. G:

Our Constitutionally protected attitudes toward guns don't require your admiration, or your permission.

You seem to require it.


quadraphonics:

No, of course not. That idea is ludicrous on its face. That's why it is such an good example of how egregiously you've allowed ideology to corrupt your worldview.

I'm willing to consider the idea that reasonable people can disagree on the issue of guns. Are you?

The problem I see is that your definition of "reasonable" is probably not the same as mine.

Many people have no trouble at all with cognitive dissonance. They can quite happily believe simultaneously in several mutually-contradictory ideas or values.

I am quite willing to agree with you that otherwise-reasonable people can disagree about guns.

Must be that same special something that led us to rebel against colonialism and drive the foreign tyrants out of our hemisphere.

I agree. That's probably part of it.

That Americans don't generally share your definition of progress is not proof that they're crazy. The NRA is powerful because huge numbers of people support its efforts.

Or do huge numbers of people support its efforts because it is powerful?

It's a chicken and egg question, isn't it?

What you may not know is that the NRA (and gun owners more generally) is a crucial component of the American conservationist movement.

Ah yes. At heart, I'm sure that Charlton Heston and his buddies all love fluffy bunnies and hug trees.

 

[mountainhare]

James:

I know what's best when it comes to rampant gun ownership.

Sure you do. You know more about the appropriateness of gun ownership in America than say... an American?

You don't have to be a genius to be able to reach the obvious conclusion.

You're so patronising.