Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

[mountainhare]

James:

What would have changed?

He would have taken an axe and gave em forty whacks.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/221277.htm

 

[James R]

iceaura:

You seem far more obsessed with guns than most Americans I know - to the point you recommend giving the US government quite extraordinary powers simply to reduce by some unspecified amount the mere legal possession of some kinds of them.

I have no obsession with guns. Personally, I think it is your reaction that is extreme here, not my initial question.

Look at this thread. Look at how defensive and upset you American gun supporters get when anybody even raises the question of gun control, or seeks to point out the gun culture that exists in the United States.

Instead of listening to the message and considering, you prefer to attack the messenger. I mean, look at this:

In other words, you're wrong in the direct sense. And your mentality is suspect.

My mentality is suspect? Seriously?

You don't really believe that.

So why not try thinking, instead of just reacting subconsciously?

 

[quadraphonics]

I have no obsession with guns.

To be correct, you have an obsession with American gun politics. Which is sort of inexplicable on its own, since it doesn't really affect you...

 

[iceaura]

My mentality is suspect? Seriously?

You don't really believe that.

I do, yes - especially after reading your reactions to my own and others' posts, into which you seem bound on projecting assumptions and obsessions of your own, while in apparent perfect sincerity overlooking the actual issues raised.

Begin here: The fourth item in your poll question is quite different from your alleged bases of response, and different in kind from the other three items. Do you see that?

We are talking about government, of a society long saturated with guns. You are talking about guns, and in way that seems to indicate little familiarity with them, and a somewhat magical notion of their nature and influences.

Look at how defensive and upset you American gun supporters get when anybody even raises the question of gun control, or seeks to point out the gun culture that exists in the United States.

You have not been merely "raising the question" of gun control - you have been disparaging and insulting the people who point to flaws in the actual implementation of it as proposed by you. And you appear to have come upon your idea of the "gun culture" of the US through gullible watching of Hollywood movies.

Instead of listening to the message and considering, you prefer to attack the messenger.

The reasonable responses to your message have been repeated several times in this thread, and been met with personal disparagements and judgements of character, etc, by you. You could always just reread them, with more care and attention to the issues they raise.

 

[James R]

To be correct, you have an obsession with American gun politics. Which is sort of inexplicable on its own, since it doesn't really affect you...

Here's a thought:

It is a moral action to be concerned about other people, and not just yourself.

Consider.

 

[mountainhare]

Isn't it sometimes ethical to mind your own fucking business? Sort of like the Yankees in Iraq?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

What would have changed?

His gun might not have been his first thought when he got angry. He might not have set out to kill, but only to hurt, or (who knows?) only to verbally argue.

In short, he might well not have killed six people. And, moreover, the police might not have felt compelled to shoot him.

Really? Then you really don't have any understanding of Human Nature, do you? When humans get mentally hurt and mad, they set out to kill, it take a lot of maturity not to do that, this could have been done with a sword, a Bomb, (the Middle East is proof of that, if you count the suicide bombing by Moslems how high is the murder rate in the Middle East?) a gallon of gasoline, a big fucking truck, this same thing has been done with all of those things, axes, knives, stones, what we have here is domestic violence, a Controlling Individual who is going to enforce his will on any woman he set his mind on.

 

[quadraphonics]

Here's a thought:

It is a moral action to be concerned about other people, and not just yourself.

Consider.

Yeah, we're so lucky to have a saint like you here to save us from ourselves.

Here's a thought: the issue is your obsession, not just concern. Given that there are so many other aspects of American politics that DO affect you, and so many other much more dire problems in the world that don't affect you, one wonders why you place so much priority on guns in America.

The way in which you parade around still-warm victims of gun violence in America trying to browbeat your imagined opponents doesn't strike me as motivated primarily by compassion.

It's funny how you think you can substitute arrogance and obtuseness for a response and get away with it. Do you think anyone is impressed by these tactics?

 

[S.A.M.]

Americans have a habit of practicing their gun skills in military interventions abroad. They also export their arms at massive levels abroad, all part of their permissive culture of violence.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Here's a thought:

It is a moral action to be concerned about other people, and not just yourself.

Consider.

That's a great justification to impose your will upon others. You sit there on the other side of the world and consider it moral to take away our right to bear arms? That's not morality, that's arrogance.

 

[iceaura]

Americans have a habit of practicing their gun skills in military interventions abroad. They also export their arms at massive levels abroad, all part of their permissive culture of violence.

The one is irrelevant - we are specifically talking about civilians with guns. That's the whole point.

The other contradicts your apparent point. Exported weapons would appear to reveal someone else's culture of violence, not ours.

Or do you also assign responsibility for Afghanistan's opium exports to the permissive culture of drug use among Afghans ?

 

[Baron Max]

James R. must be overwhelmed with joy today ....just read in the Dallas Morning News that the government in Burma has instituted strict gun control in Burma and is going around the country taking the weapons from all of the citizens. The monks have been storing large quantities of guns and ammo ...so the government took them all.

Three cheers for gun control, huh, James?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

The one is irrelevant - we are specifically talking about civilians with guns. That's the whole point.

The other contradicts your apparent point. Exported weapons would appear to reveal someone else's culture of violence, not ours.

Or do you also assign responsibility for Afghanistan's opium exports to the permissive culture of drug use among Afghans ?

The culture of violence exists everywhere, but nowhere is it exported as much as in the US. Do you believe it is a coincidence that all countries where structural adjustment policies are followed just happen to spend their income on weapons import from the US?

The culture of arms is endorsed by the arms industry and the NRA is their most fervent spokesperson. The arms economy is an enormous capitalist enterprise and the cavalier attitude of Americans towards arms ownership simply promotes it even more.

As the United Nations Department for Disarmament Affairs describes, Small arms and light weapons destabilise regions. This is because they

* Spark, fuel and prolong conflicts;
* Obstruct relief programmes;
* Undermine peace initiatives;
* Exacerbate human rights abuses;
* Hamper development; and
* Foster a “culture of violence.”

“The five permanent members of the UN Security Council—France, Russia, China, the UK, and the USA—together account for 88 per cent of the world’s conventional arms exports; and these exports contribute regularly to gross abuses of human rights.” as a report from the control arms campaign, Shattered Lives, mentions.

As the report notes further:

The lack of arms controls allows some to profit from the misery of others.

* While international attention is focused on the need to control weapons of mass destruction, the trade in conventional weapons continues to operate in a legal and moral vacuum.
* More and more countries are starting to produce small arms, many with little ability or will to regulate their use.
* Permanent UN Security Council members—the USA, UK, France, Russia, and China—dominate the world trade in arms.
* Most national arms controls are riddled with loopholes or barely enforced.
* Key weaknesses are lax controls on the brokering, licensed production, and “end use” of arms.
* Arms get into the wrong hands through weak controls on firearm ownership, weapons management, and misuse by authorised users of weapons.

— The Arms Bazaar, Shattered Lives, Chapter 4, p. 54, Control Arms Campaign, October 2003

None of this happens in isolation.

John Bolton, the U.S. undersecretary of state for arms control, bluntly told the delegates that “The United States will not join consensus on a final document that contains measures contrary to our constitutional right to keep and bear arms.” He also said the United States, the largest supplier of arms worldwide, would not support moves to outlaw any arming of rebel groups, nor would it help fund a campaign by human rights groups to raise awareness of the trade. He also said the U.S. would not support a ban on private ownership of military weapons, including assault rifles and grenade launchers.

— Amy Goodman, A Ban on Private Ownership of Military Weapons Including Assault Rifles and Grenade Launchers? Bush Administration Just Says No, Democracy Now!, July 11, 2001. (An interview with various activists and campaigners around the world on the UN Conference on small arms.)

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/SmallArms.asp

 

[iceaura]

The culture of violence exists everywhere, but nowhere is it exported as much as in the US. Do you believe it is a coincidence that all countries where structural adjustment policies are followed just happen to spend their income on weapons import from the US?

The culture of arms is endorsed by the arms industry and the NRA is their most fervent spokesperson. The arms economy is an enormous capitalist enterprise and the cavalier attitude of Americans towards arms ownership simply promotes it even more.

The military arms industry has very little to do with the "gun culture" in the US. The "structural adjustment policies" are an export of military/industrial corruption and fascist political organization, not US culture - and most definitely not US civil liberties. The NRA is not important in these dealings.

What is happening to these weapons-importing countries' cultures is also happening to US culture. The source is not in some US "culure of violence" that is spread like a disease, but in the age-old features of power and greed taking advantage of new circumstances - in the US as elsewhere. The gun-nut ranting in the US is often a reaction, however ineffectual or even counterproductive, to that influence - not its source.

 

[S.A.M.]

The military arms industry has very little to do with the "gun culture" in the US. The "structural adjustment policies" are an export of military/industrial corruption and fascist political organization, not US culture - and most definitely not US civil liberties. The NRA is not important in these dealings.

What is happening to these weapons-importing countries' cultures is also happening to US culture. The source is not in some US "culure of violence" that is spread like a disease, but in the age-old features of power and greed taking advantage of new circumstances - in the US as elsewhere. The gun-nut ranting in the US is often a reaction, however ineffectual or even counterproductive, to that influence - not its source.

I disagree; if the country is consitutionally inclined to support the arming of civilians, it provides legal sanction to export the arms without oversight.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I disagree; if the country is consitutionally inclined to support the arming of civilians, it provides legal sanction to export the arms without oversight.

Sorry SpAM, but there is plenty of over sight for the export of weapons, get caught doing business with out the proper permits, and paper work from both end, will get you some serious jail time, and if you wish to look at it more people are murdered around the world by their own government than ever die from private fire arms in America, Islam alone kills more people in the middle east with suicide bombers, than die from Firearms in America.

I know you don't consider the killing of a Jew as murder, but Islam murders more people in the name of Mohammed, and Allah, than die from violence in the United States.

 

[S.A.M.]

So what do you think of the US arming insurgents/dictators in conflict ridden places worldwide?

Especially its practice of arming both sides?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Darfur, 70,000+ died in Islamic violence,

Greenpeace: 93,000 Died From Chernobyl Nuclear Fallout,

Throughout the reporting of murder by suicidal bombing, what ought to be called murder bombing, if anything, has been consistently conceptualized in the media as “suicide bombing,” with the exception of Fox News that occasionally calls it homicide bombing (hey, Fox—it’s purposive, and therefore not homicide, but murder). With the term “suicide bombing” the implicit emphasis is suicide—that somebody committed suicide by setting off a bomb—and not the mass murder it intentionally causes, sometimes of twenty-five or more innocent civilians going about their business.

2006

the number of suicide bomb attacks in Iraq at 540 and put the death toll at between 16,000 and 18,000.

33 innocents per suicide bombing, 1.4 bombings per day, and that is only the murder by suicide bombings.

The Iraq Crisis - Global Issues
The civilian death toll has been immense, with 2006 seeing almost 100 deaths a day. ... some 100 people per day have been dying from suicide bombings, ...
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Iraq.asp

 

[Buffalo Roam]

SpAM paid propaganda 40+ a day.

So what do you think of the US arming insurgents/dictators in conflict ridden places worldwide?

Especially its practice of arming both sides?

SpAM the enemy of my enemy is a useful idiot, isn't that how the Moslems operate? If we can make a peace with those who have fought us, why not, it must really chap you as that Moslems are willing to make peace with the Iraqi Government, and the U.S. and turn against your Terrorist Islamic Brothers, what is wrong in them recognizing that the Foreign Islamic Fighter are killing more innocent Iraqis then they are American Military, and taking action to correct the situation, and what is wrong with the U.S. making peace with these people to get to their help, and destroy and kill the terrorist who are killing innocent Iraqis, could it be because it show that the Islamic Terrorist are the ones who are responsible for the massive death toll in the Iraqi civilian population, and that peace can be made, and that the True Enemy are Your Islamic Terrorist Brothers.

 

[S.A.M.]

Heh I cannot believe you are using these examples.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=611

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29

SpAM paid propaganda 40+ a day.



SpAM the enemy of my enemy is a useful idiot, isn't that how the Moslems operate? If we can make a peace with those who have fought us, why not, it must really chap you as that Moslems are willing to make peace with the Iraqi Government, and the U.S. and turn against your Terrorist Islamic Brothers, what is wrong in them recognizing that the Foreign Islamic Fighter are killing more innocent Iraqis then they are American Military, and taking action to correct the situation, and what is wrong with the U.S. making peace with these people to get to their help, and destroy and kill the terrorist who are killing innocent Iraqis, could it be because it show that the Islamic Terrorist are the ones who are responsible for the massive death toll in the Iraqi civilian population, and that peace can be made, and that the True Enemy are Your Islamic Terrorist Brothers.

So this means you support arming both sides in a conflict. Its a reflection of your culture of permissive gun ownership and violence.