Gun control: the results are in?

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surenderer said:
Except of course those items were not made with the intention to kill while a gun is obviously made to do so. How about some of the school shootings that were done a couple of years ago here in America........how many people would have died if they would have tried that with the weapons you named?...I lived in Iceland for a year which nobody had guns and people seemed just fine without them. It's a popular trick of the NRA to say "if you dont have a gun you cant protect your family" or "if you dont have a gun you (a woman) will get raped when you walk the streets at night"......whats wrong with society when people have to this scared of one another? I could be the most cautious safest responsible gun owner in the world but if you or somebody else isnt then we all are in danger.....does that seem fair? For a safer more peaceful society I would gladly give up the right to own a gun :m:
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I’d suggest you consider the context of the statement that you quoted there. When I said that I was specifically responding to someone’s suggestion that all weapons of any kind should be banned. I was explaining why I didn’t think banning everything that could potentially be used as a weapon was a practically possible thing for society to do.
 
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Nasor said:
I believe that in this incident only one of the hunters had a rifle, and he was the first one killed by the attacker.
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Oh well, scratch that idea then.

But I still stand by the rest of my post.
Here in Scotland for example, apart form widespread use of screwdrivers as stabbing weapons, the introduction of guns was and still is retarded due to the culture that using a gun means your a pussy. Using a knife on your enemy is much more up close and personal, thus shows your more of a hard man. Now, if the ends would all stab each other to death, the rest of us could get on OK.
An interesting thing i've noticed is the number of americans who want to/ do carry offensive weaponry because it will scare off muggers etc. Now, in Scotland, carrying offensive weaponry generally means you end up having to use it, witness the street fights. But the fear behind their constant cry of needing a gun to defend themselves with makes me wonder. You could just try and live in a society in which you didnt feel in so much danger. Or else you could do like I did when at uni, and fill in a questionnaire about crime. I got to the question about "How afraid are you of crime in your area" and nearly ticked the a fair bit box, and then realised actually I wasnt afraid at all. That has continued ever since. I am not afraid of the potential crime. I am apprehensive enough to do simple sensible things like avoid dangerous areas and always lock up your house, but going about with a gun would mean I felt scared all the time. (let alone the danger from mishandling it)
 
"or a safer more peaceful society I would gladly give up the right to own a gun"
I wouldn't. Now what?
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Neither would I. Mainly because me owning a weapon is no threat to society.
 
surenderer said:
For a safer more peaceful society I would gladly give up the right to own a gun :m:
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I think you’re missing the point of this thread. Since banning guns doesn’t seem to lower the murder rate in any country that tries it, evidently gun control does not lead to a safer or more peaceful society – indeed, there are examples of countries where crime has increased dramatically after guns were banned. You would be giving up your right to own a gun in exchange for nothing.
 
Nasor said:
I think you’re missing the point of this thread. Since banning guns doesn’t seem to lower the murder rate in any country that tries it, evidently gun control does not lead to a safer or more peaceful society – indeed, there are examples of countries where crime has increased dramatically after guns were banned. You would be giving up your right to own a gun in exchange for nothing.
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Well our generation is probably screwed :( but my point is that a peaceful society can exist without guns....gotta start somewhere :m:
 
Stokes Pennwalt said:
I wouldn't. Now what?
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Then we live in the era of drive-by-shooting and school shootings and crimes of passion murders and robberies etc......as long as you feel safe though thats whats important :rolleyes:
 
Spyke said:
Neither would I. Mainly because me owning a weapon is no threat to society.
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Suppose that someone stole your gun and commited a crime? suppose your child found your gun and was showing it to my child and it went off? how could a gun(not you) not be a threat to society? as i have stated i have lived in a gun-less society and never felt safer :m:
 
surenderer said:
Well our generation is probably screwed :( but my point is that a peaceful society can exist without guns....gotta start somewhere :m:
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And a peaceful society can exist with guns. Since taking away guns doesn’t lower crime rates, it’s of no benefit to society. Why are you proposing something that has already failed in virtually every country that’s tried it?
 
Suppose that someone stole your gun and commited a crime?
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Odds of that are slim and none. Unless someone wants to drag a 500 lb. gun safe out of my house, and considering it's weight and size dimensions, it's going to take at least two people and a truck.

suppose your child found your gun and was showing it to my child and it went off? how could a gun(not you) not be a threat to society?
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My daughter is grown and out of the house. When she was young however, she was trained on gun safety, and taught to shoot as well. But my weapons at the time all had trigger locks threaded through them when not in use, and later, when I purchased the safe, were locked away as well. Guns are not a threat to society, and no amount of gun control laws will keep guns out of the ands of the wrong people. I'm all for mandatory classes on safety and owner responsibility; I went through them for my concealed weapon permit, and I think it would be good to have them for gun ownership period. But that is up to individual states to decide.

as i have stated i have lived in a gun-less society and never felt safer
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Good for you. I feel safe as well.
 
surenderer said:
Then we live in the era of drive-by-shooting and school shootings and crimes of passion murders and robberies etc......as long as you feel safe though thats whats important :rolleyes:
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So, how does me owning a firearm cause these crimes?
 
Isn't the point that "society" cannot tell if you are a danger to it with your gun?
 
Undecided said:
So, how does me owning a firearm cause these crimes?

How does smoking cause cancer?
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Good lord, how many times does this have to be repeated before people get it? I'll make it bold this time in the hopes that it will sink in: Gun control laws do not reduce crime. Shootings go down, but criminals simply switch to other weapons and the murder rate remains the same. Numerous examples of countries where the murder rate has failed to decline after the passage of gun control laws have already been posted. Do you have any counter-examples of a country passing gun control laws and then actually seeing a decrease in the murder rate? If not, why do you persist in claiming that there is a causal relationship between access to guns and crime in the same way that there is a causal relationship between cancer and smoking?

Edit: Oh wait, I forgot – you’re the one who thinks that gun control is still worthwhile even if it doesn’t decrease the crime rate. As if criminals simply switching weapons and still committing the same number of murders was somehow a benefit to society :rolleyes:
 
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Nasor said:
Good lord, how many times does this have to be repeated before people get it? I'll make it bold this time in the hopes that it will sink in: Gun control laws do not reduce crime. Shootings go down, but criminals simply switch to other weapons and the murder rate remains the same. Numerous examples of countries where the murder rate has failed to decline after the passage of gun control laws have already been posted. Do you have any counter-examples of a country passing gun control laws and then actually seeing a decrease in the murder rate? If not, why do you persist in claiming that there is a causal relationship between access to guns and crime in the same way that there is a causal relationship between cancer and smoking?

Edit: Oh wait, I forgot – you’re the one who thinks that gun control is still worthwhile even if it doesn’t decrease the crime rate. As if criminals simply switching weapons and still committing the same number of murders was somehow a benefit to society :rolleyes:
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Yeah dude, don't bother. This has been explained to nico multiple times before in many different threads. He's not interested in the facts, the statistics, or the logic. He'll just keep parroting the same tired antigun platitudes ad nauseam in spite of how functionally indefensible his case is.

More facts for him to deny:
Concealed carry laws reduce crime
Gun Control: Myths And Realities
Lott-Mustard Gun Control Study (also available in book form)
 
Good lord,... Gun control laws do not reduce crime. Shootings go down, but criminals simply switch to other weapons and the murder rate remains the same. ...
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i'm not sure if this was directed to 'good lord' ,but i'll make a few statements nonetheless.

as a general argument, i think it is ludicrous to think it reasonable to require those desiring to drive motor vehicles register & demonstrate basic skills & not require the same for owners of lethal weapons. guns have one & only one purpose: efficient killing. is it asking to much for those who desire this priviledge, register & demonstrate knowledge of safe handling. furhter, solving crimes would be a bit easier as well, to say the least. are you opposed to improved law enforcement in violent crimes?

humans by nature are emotional & at times, prone to disagreements...which may become passionate...or violent...eek! to have the ubiquitous availability of handguns (many not traceable) only encourages the escalation of violence. there is a reason why guns are called the 'great equalizer'...it's like a dose o' courage for the otherwise inflammed, but usually timid. we all go through periods of rage, but having a gun close by during those times is a real risk. add to this background, mental illness, sociopaths, & situations like domestic violence, 'road rage', etc., & the combinations become lethal...not to mention the criminal mindset.

it is clear that guns in one's home are far more often either used in suicide, unintentional killing or stolen & used in other crimes, versus any mythic 'protection' value. it is especially tragic when a child discovers a loaded weapon & either the child or his playmate is injured or killed. this has been documented frequently. i think there are about 9 or 10 thousand handgun deaths a year, & only about 100-200 'justifiable homicides' by private citizens...

then there is the argument from law enforcement perspective...they all favor common sense legislation. being 'outgunned' by the criminal is not a postion our police should be facing...nor should they be on the wrong end of 'cop killer' bullets, or assault weapons. as for criminals 'moving to other weapons', i'll take my chances with a knife or club, verus a 45 magnum or automatic weapon. i'm sure the police would as well.

finally, the reason the laws are not more effective is because the gun lobby, which controls the majority in congress (& of course the white house), has a penchant for watering down any legislation that has any real chance of working. despite these huge roadblocks, the brady law & assualt weapons ban (pre expiration) had measurable effects. how could anyone be opposed to such minimal, common sense measures to keep our communities a bit safer?

i guess the alternative is just throw up our hands...turn our homes into mini-arsenals...& hope for the best. hmmm, now where did i put that order for that grenade launcher for the rec room....

cheers.
 
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