Gravity slows down time.

It's not working Paddoboy. Your ongoing efforts at derailment of this thread only shows Chinglu's got you in a corner. This is probably quite an embarrassment to Rpenner.

Here's Chinglus question again;

It is simple. The traveling twin witnessed 12 earth orbits with science.

How many earth orbits did his clock claim he witnessed?

Answer the question.


You've expended all this energy in subtefurge and derailment. Why not just answer ?

There is no proscription in the forum rules about repetition.

In fairness to Paddoboy, it appears to me that he and many of the other pro-science posters are giving chinglu the benefit of the doubt, allowing that it's possible the traveling twin can count the orbits at all. As I mentioned before, that's entirely hypothetical since chinglu never bothered to explain how it might be done. (Not that I've seen in rebuttals, that is. I have the worst of trolls like chinglu on ignore.) Lacking the formalization of his question, which chinglu simply can't do because he doesn't have the chops, there is no geometric framework given for even assuming the traveling twin sees the Earth orbit the sun at all. Therein lies the rub; and I sense that paddoboy recognizes this and is reluctant to give the answer you are expecting, since there simply is no answer other than it depends on how we declare that the traveling twin is able to count the orbits at all.

I gave what I think is the only plausible scenario, the one in which the twin travels in the plane of the Earth's orbit, and has Star Trek equipment onboard to count the number of eclipses observed as it zooms 5 eclipses away from Earth, then, as Spock advises chinglu that sensors detect a 6th eclipse, he stops the Enterprise on a dime and reverses at near light speed only to return 6 eclipses later, for a total of 12. Apparently this is the nonsensical scenario that enables chinglu to count orbits.

paddoboy is actually right not to answer, since the scenario wasn't laid out (or so I imagine since I'm reading through a filter). There is no answer, Lakon, to a problem that's incompletely specified, other than to invent hypotheticals and try to answer it as I have. But note: once we do this we introduce geometry. And with that, we restore the rules of Nature that chinglu keeps trying to undermine by "disappearing them" in diabolically conceived scenarios in which reference frames are ignored. That is, geometry is ignored. But that's an invalid construction from the get go. Relativity is counter intuitive for this reason alone. It is entirely a consequence of geometry. Throw that in the trash, and there is no scenario; it's all bogus machinations of a diseased mind.

In my scenario the geometry is restored, although it relies on sci-fi as much as any near light speed travel does. The frames of reference are clear enough to establish that the traveling twin experiences the eclipses in relative time (not Star Dates) that are 10/12 of a year elapsed time on the ship's clock. (I'm working under the assumption that the ship's clock reads 10 elapsed years after traveling 12 light years (rel. to Earth) round trip from an Earth station to an arbitrary point on the Earth's orbital plane, and back again.) For purposes of my scenario, we can assume the ship is using an atomic fountain clock that was calibrated on Earth just before departure and which magically remains calibrated for the next 12 Earth years. (A Vulcan engineer mind melds it into perpetual calibration.) Further I'm couching this as a purely velocity dependent scenario (ignoring GR altogether) although it's just as valid either way since we haven't reckoned the ship's speed.

Yes, the person in motion in this scenario counts 12 eclipses even though he ages only 10 years. And yes, the Earth appears to him to speed up in its orbit around the Sun, although that's not anything he can detect with his eye. He's simply got Spock at the sensor panel telling him so. And yes, every 304 days of ship-time or so, chinglu is shocked to discover that he has wasted Federation money: he should have stayed in school rather than hijacking the Enterprise in the vain attempt to disprove what is a matter of high school science.

Paddoboy is right - there is simply no direct answer to an absurd and incompletely formulated question, other than to declare it invalid.
 
Your ongoing efforts to derail the thread .. 'sure they're working' was your response .. OK

I don't care at all for your respectabiltity. As to whether others respect me or not, that's between me and them, unless you presume to speak for them too .. and you do, don't you ?

You're on some self appointed zealotry mission to rescue science .. you caped cruisader you ..

Anyway, enough of my contribution to your derailment. It is now quite plain the nut job that you are. So unless something of value issues from you (a most unlikely proposition, as it hasn't happened yet) I will not be fueling your derailment any further.




Wow!!!


Disprin and a good lay down is in order my son.

Just on my mission to rescue science, it doesn't need rescuing...the scientific method sees to that.

The rest of your diatribe is not really worth commenting on.
I do realise the truth sometimes hurts, but you did ask me to elaborate on your agenda....It certainly hit home didn't it! :)
 
In fairness to Paddoboy, it appears to me that he and many of the other pro-science posters are giving chinglu the benefit of the doubt, allowing that it's possible the traveling twin can count the orbits at all. As I mentioned before, that's entirely hypothetical since chinglu never bothered to explain how it might be done. (Not that I've seen in rebuttals, that is. I have the worst of trolls like chinglu on ignore.) Lacking the formalization of his question, which chinglu simply can't do because he doesn't have the chops, there is no geometric framework given for even assuming the traveling twin sees the Earth orbit the sun at all. Therein lies the rub; and I sense that paddoboy recognizes this and is reluctant to give the answer you are expecting, since there simply is no answer other than it depends on how we declare that the traveling twin is able to count the orbits at all.

I gave what I think is the only plausible scenario, the one in which the twin travels in the plane of the Earth's orbit, and has Star Trek equipment onboard to count the number of eclipses observed as it zooms 5 eclipses away from Earth, then, as Spock advises chinglu that sensors detect a 6th eclipse, he stops the Enterprise on a dime and reverses at near light speed only to return 6 eclipses later, for a total of 12. Apparently this is the nonsensical scenario that enables chinglu to count orbits.

paddoboy is actually right not to answer, since the scenario wasn't laid out (or so I imagine since I'm reading through a filter). There is no answer, Lakon, to a problem that's incompletely specified, other than to invent hypotheticals and try to answer it as I have. But note: once we do this we introduce geometry. And with that, we restore the rules of Nature that chinglu keeps trying to undermine by "disappearing them" in diabolically conceived scenarios in which reference frames are ignored. That is, geometry is ignored. But that's an invalid construction from the get go. Relativity is counter intuitive for this reason alone. It is entirely a consequence of geometry. Throw that in the trash, and there is no scenario; it's all bogus machinations of a diseased mind.

In my scenario the geometry is restored, although it relies on sci-fi as much as any near light speed travel does. The frames of reference are clear enough to establish that the traveling twin experiences the eclipses in relative time (not Star Dates) that are 10/12 of a year elapsed time on the ship's clock. (I'm working under the assumption that the ship's clock reads 10 elapsed years after traveling 12 light years (rel. to Earth) round trip from an Earth station to an arbitrary point on the Earth's orbital plane, and back again.) For purposes of my scenario, we can assume the ship is using an atomic fountain clock that was calibrated on Earth just before departure and which magically remains calibrated for the next 12 Earth years. (A Vulcan engineer mind melds it into perpetual calibration.) Further I'm couching this as a purely velocity dependent scenario (ignoring GR altogether) although it's just as valid either way since we haven't reckoned the ship's speed.

Yes, the person in motion in this scenario counts 12 eclipses even though he ages only 10 years. And yes, the Earth appears to him to speed up in its orbit around the Sun, although that's not anything he can detect with his eye. He's simply got Spock at the sensor panel telling him so. And yes, every 304 days of ship-time or so, chinglu is shocked to discover that he has wasted Federation money: he should have stayed in school rather than hijacking the Enterprise in the vain attempt to disprove what is a matter of high school science.

Paddoboy is right - there is simply no direct answer to an absurd and incompletely formulated question, other than to declare it invalid.

I am glad you have chosen to understand if the earth orbits counted to 12 for the traveling twin, then the twin lived 12 years. But, you are also in retreat. You are trying to claim I need a current technology to prove these can be counted. Well, let's see, I said the twin never left the solar system. We are able to count orbits of any planets in the solar system. Therefore, we use the same technology.

Now, let's really visit the absurdity of your notion anyway. Say the twin could not count the orbits. Does that mean the earth traveled around the sun 12 times and 10 times while the twin was away? Do you understand the absurdity? Or, can you explain this?

Further, let's review your "God" of relativity.

For v=c all moving objects—viewed from the “stationary” system—shrivel up into plane figures​

Chapter 4
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

Now, exactly what technology is Einstein going to use to support his claim above?


Consequently, your entire post has been reduced to total absurdity.

Or,


Reductio ad absurdum
 
????? :(

Time is not a clock.
A clock only measures intervals of time, which we program based on astronomical movements...day, month, year, and then partitioned that with seconds and hours.
The BB occurred 13.8 billion years ago, and we were not around with our clocks to measure it....
We use other methods for those calculations.
Time exists independent of clocks...If we destroyed all the clocks, you would still age...If we destroyed the solar system, the Universe would still continue to age. We just wouldn't be around to measure it.

You finally get it.

The traveling witnessed 12 earth orbits. His clock said 10 earth orbits occurred though. Therefore, his SR clock is false.
 
You finally get it.

The traveling witnessed 12 earth orbits. His clock said 10 earth orbits occurred though. Therefore, his SR clock is false.



As I said in the other thread, your dementia and delusion needs attending to :)
Take it easy you poor soul.
 
As I said in the other thread, your dementia and delusion needs attending to :)
Take it easy you poor soul.

You said this.

A clock only measures intervals of time, which we program based on astronomical movements.

That is what I have been saying all along.

So, you finally learned I am correct and if the traveling twin's clock claimed 10 earth orbits while the twin witnessed 12 earth orbits astronomically, that proves we need to reprogram the clock just like in GPS. So, the clock is wrong.

QED
 
You said this.

A clock only measures intervals of time, which we program based on astronomical movements.

That is what I have been saying all along.

So, you finally learned I am correct and if the traveling twin's clock claimed 10 earth orbits while the twin witnessed 12 earth orbits astronomically, that proves we need to reprogram the clock just like in GPS. So, the clock is wrong.

QED


You lie.....
You ignorantly ignore FoRs
You sprout a fixed relationship between clocks and astronomical events and that has been showed to be wrong many times.
But hey, you be my guest..afterall this is pseudoscience and Santa Claus reigns supreme!!!
 
In fairness to Paddoboy, it appears to me that he and many of the other pro-science posters are giving chinglu the benefit of the doubt, allowing that it's possible the traveling twin can count the orbits at all. As I mentioned before, that's entirely hypothetical since chinglu never bothered to explain how it might be done. (Not that I've seen in rebuttals, that is. I have the worst of trolls like chinglu on ignore.) Lacking the formalization of his question, which chinglu simply can't do because he doesn't have the chops, there is no geometric framework given for even assuming the traveling twin sees the Earth orbit the sun at all. Therein lies the rub; and I sense that paddoboy recognizes this and is reluctant to give the answer you are expecting, since there simply is no answer other than it depends on how we declare that the traveling twin is able to count the orbits at all.

I gave what I think is the only plausible scenario, the one in which the twin travels in the plane of the Earth's orbit, and has Star Trek equipment onboard to count the number of eclipses observed as it zooms 5 eclipses away from Earth, then, as Spock advises chinglu that sensors detect a 6th eclipse, he stops the Enterprise on a dime and reverses at near light speed only to return 6 eclipses later, for a total of 12. Apparently this is the nonsensical scenario that enables chinglu to count orbits.

paddoboy is actually right not to answer, since the scenario wasn't laid out (or so I imagine since I'm reading through a filter). There is no answer, Lakon, to a problem that's incompletely specified, other than to invent hypotheticals and try to answer it as I have. But note: once we do this we introduce geometry. And with that, we restore the rules of Nature that chinglu keeps trying to undermine by "disappearing them" in diabolically conceived scenarios in which reference frames are ignored. That is, geometry is ignored. But that's an invalid construction from the get go. Relativity is counter intuitive for this reason alone. It is entirely a consequence of geometry. Throw that in the trash, and there is no scenario; it's all bogus machinations of a diseased mind.

In my scenario the geometry is restored, although it relies on sci-fi as much as any near light speed travel does. The frames of reference are clear enough to establish that the traveling twin experiences the eclipses in relative time (not Star Dates) that are 10/12 of a year elapsed time on the ship's clock. (I'm working under the assumption that the ship's clock reads 10 elapsed years after traveling 12 light years (rel. to Earth) round trip from an Earth station to an arbitrary point on the Earth's orbital plane, and back again.) For purposes of my scenario, we can assume the ship is using an atomic fountain clock that was calibrated on Earth just before departure and which magically remains calibrated for the next 12 Earth years. (A Vulcan engineer mind melds it into perpetual calibration.) Further I'm couching this as a purely velocity dependent scenario (ignoring GR altogether) although it's just as valid either way since we haven't reckoned the ship's speed.

Yes, the person in motion in this scenario counts 12 eclipses even though he ages only 10 years. And yes, the Earth appears to him to speed up in its orbit around the Sun, although that's not anything he can detect with his eye. He's simply got Spock at the sensor panel telling him so. And yes, every 304 days of ship-time or so, chinglu is shocked to discover that he has wasted Federation money: he should have stayed in school rather than hijacking the Enterprise in the vain attempt to disprove what is a matter of high school science.

Paddoboy is right - there is simply no direct answer to an absurd and incompletely formulated question, other than to declare it invalid.

Therein lies the rub; and I sense that paddoboy recognizes this and is reluctant to give the answer you are expecting, since there simply is no answer other than it depends on how we declare that the traveling twin is able to count the orbits at all.

Thanks for the temperate response.

Allow me to again, get something straight concerning my position and interest in this.

I AM NOT expecting any answer, or at least, not one in any particular direction. I, like the vast majority of people on this planet, I would say, don't understand relativity. So when it is challanged by some like Chinglu, and such challange is met with abuse and bullying tactics (such as those from nut job boy) this in itself says a lot.

You might argue that one gets sick of repition. Well and good. But the remedy for repitition is not abuse, bullying and derailment tactics. This IS the appropriate forum in accordance with the sites proprietors rules, and the IS NO proscription so far as I can see, against repitition. So repetition of material on the part of Chinglu is no excuse for abusive conduct.

In fact, seeing as I don't undestand relativity, I LIKE Chinguls reduction of the arguement to simple terms - terms that I can understand.

I will read your post in detail later (disregarding the references to nut job boy) and will see if it further informs me, according to my level of understanding.

edit last line
 
Aqueous Id, see post 405 for a brilliant example of what I mean.

And of course likewise, if you were fair dinkum, you would go back 3 or 4 pages and see where our chinglu has been answered many times by more then one contributor.
But your not are you?
 
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quote Originally Posted by chinglu
Your lived and aged concepts are irrelevant.

The traveling twin witnessed 12 earth years and yet his SR clock claims only 10 earth years elapsed, which is false.

So, SR is false.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




can_t-tell-if-trolling.jpg



Exactly....
People wonder why after so many explanation, references and explanatory videos to explain a concept accepted by 99.999% of scientists to chinglu, that are so arrogantly and stupidly ignored and then get back the same regurgitated nonsense post after post in reply.
Not a wonder he was given a forced break and expelled to pseudoscience!
 
Sure, 10 seconds
Maybe you misread the question. Please try again:

If I run a race in 10 seconds and you have a clock that erroneously runs half as fast as it should, how much time will your clock say it took to complete the race?
I disagree with your basic premise. Clocks reflect earth orbits and rotations.
You can disagree all you like, but until you become the one who gets to write the definition, you'll just stay wrong.
If they deviate from this as in GPS, they are reset to the correct time.
Are you aware of the fact that GPS clocks are pre-calibrated to run at a different rate than earth-based clocks? They mostly keep synchronized without corrections because the different pre-programmed tick rate enables them to avoid deviation.

You've claimed "I proved frequency changes in a gravitational field...."

Please state what "frequency" and how it is proven. Because this is critical. GPS clocks don't need daily correction of 38 ms because scientists were able to calculate the rate difference. How? You say this is an "error". What, exactly is the error and how is it manifest so that it can be pre-calculated? How was it discovered? You need to explain this "frequency" error you are claiming.

Edit: and this is neither here nor there, but you may be interested to know:
While most clocks derive their time from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), the atomic clocks on the satellites are set to GPS time (GPST; see the page of United States Naval Observatory). The difference is that GPS time is not corrected to match the rotation of the Earth, so it does not contain leap seconds or other corrections that are periodically added to UTC. GPS time was set to match UTC in 1980, but has since diverged. The lack of corrections means that GPS time remains at a constant offset with International Atomic Time (TAI) (TAI − GPS = 19 seconds). Periodic corrections are performed to the on-board clocks to keep them synchronized with ground clocks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timekeeping

Perhaps more importantly; are you aware that the earth's orbit is not perfectly consistent/stable and thus the length of the year varies by quite a considerable amount?
 
Last edited:
That's not how I see it exactly. If light has a finite speed, and that speed is the Universal maximum, irrespective of FoRs....
The first part and the second part are two very different things. The second was not known until Maxwell's equations implied it and the MMX demonstrated it.
 
RPenner is smart.

He does not post here because he knows he will be forced into a contradiction if he assumes SR/GR is true.



Nope, the man has some character, and doesn't post here because, [1] it's pseudoscience, and [2] you are obviously trolling and have been from the start.
 
I found this at the Markus Hanke forum......



By Markus Hanke:


Tests of Special Relativity & Relativity Principle

Cryogenic Optical Resonators : http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/...prl78_4741.pdf
Non-Stationary Optical Cavities : http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/...xiv0510169.pdf
Lorentz Invariance : Special relativity passes key test - physicsworld.com
Time Dilation in Satellites : http://www.quantum.physik.uni-mainz...._861(2007).pdf
Length Contraction in Heavy Ion Colliders : http://home.broadpark.no/~ccsernai/Csernai-textbook.pdf
Relativistic Lorentz Force Tests : The effects of the Aharonov-Bohm type as tests of the relativistic interpretation of electrodynamics
Anisotropy of Inertial Mass Tests : An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Time dilation in mu-mesons : Measurement of the Relativistic Time Dilation Using
Length contraction in free electron Lasers : What is SR, how is it generated and what are its properties?
Length contraction in Penrose-Terrell Rotations : Can You See the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction?
Penning Traps : Antimatter tests of Lorentz violation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Tests of General Relativity

Universality of Gravitational Red Shift : http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/...2-PRL10401.pdf
Gravitational Potential at Short Distances : http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/...2-PRL10401.pdf
Tests of Lorentz Invariance : http://relativity.livingreviews.org/...005-5Color.pdf
Gravitational Red Shift / Pound-Rebka : http://luth2.obspm.fr/IHP06/lectures...avRedshift.pdf
Light Deflection within the Solar System/Shapiro Delay : [astro-ph/0302294] The Measurement of the Light Deflection from Jupiter: Experimental Results
Lunar Laser Ranging to test Nordvedt Effect : Phys. Rev. 169, 1017 (1968): Equivalence Principle for Massive Bodies. II. Theory
Hafele-Keating Experiment for Time Dilation : Around-the-World Atomic Clocks: Predicted Relativistic Time Gains
Thirring-Lense Effect : http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture03007.html
Geodetic Effect : Phys. Rev. Lett. 106, 221101 (2011): Gravity Probe B: Final Results of a Space Experiment to Test General Relativity
Orbital Decay through Gravitational Waves in Binary Pulsar System PSR J-0737-3039 : Tests of General Relativity from Timing the Double Pulsar


Needless to say all of these tests confirmed the predictions of the theory of relativity to varying, but very high degrees. No violations of any laws of relativity have ever been observed in empirical experiments, to the best of my knowledge, and more tests and experiments continue to be scheduled for the near future.
Also, one must consider quantum electrodynamics ( QED ), which is built on relativity from the ground up - again, needless to say that all QED effects are in perfect agreement with experiment. In fact, a large part of modern day electronics and technology is directly based on QED, and would not be functioning without it being correct !
Relativity works !!!
 
Allow me to again, get something straight concerning my position and interest in this.



Your position is fairly obvious and boils down to supporting a kindred soul


I AM NOT expecting any answer, or at least, not one in any particular direction. I, like the vast majority of people on this planet, I would say, don't understand relativity. So when it is challanged by some like Chinglu, and such challange is met with abuse and bullying tactics (such as those from nut job boy) this in itself says a lot.

You might argue that one gets sick of repition. Well and good. But the remedy for repitition is not abuse, bullying and derailment tactics. This IS the appropriate forum in accordance with the sites proprietors rules, and the IS NO proscription so far as I can see, against repitition. So repetition of material on the part of Chinglu is no excuse for abusive conduct.

In fact, seeing as I don't undestand relativity, I LIKE Chinguls reduction of the arguement to simple terms - terms that I can understand.

I will read your post in detail later (disregarding the references to nut job boy) and will see if it further informs me, according to my level of understanding.

edit last line


For someone that doesn't take nicely to abuse and bullying, you aint doing a bad job yourself....... :)
But I have broad shoulders.
Obviously you have not calmed down from my hitting a home run with regards to my giving the reason for your agenda...But you did ask me to supply it.
With my abuse, not generally my style by the way, but after answering chinglu many times and getting the same regurgitation back, I decided to cut to the core with some home truths.....Like I said, generally not my style but when one is confronted with a troll like chinglu, one takes a different tack that may not be ideal.....Funny though, you have not mentioned anyone else.
Again may I suggest you take the time to check out the thread, and see how many others also lost their cool with the obvious troll chinglu


You may like chinglu's simplified reductions, but that doesn't change the fact that they are wrong.
Being a layman, my explanations are also rather simplified, but with right on their side with regards to the present debate at least.


Now in reality, all you and I are doing is derailing this thread...yes, you and I!...It takes two to tango, OK?
Now it's going to take someone man enough to short circuit the derailing, by not replying. RPENNER has certainly done that even in the face of unecessary, against the rules goading by both chinglu and you.
My nature has me never backing away from a scrap, especially when in the right, although this is getting rather puerile and vengefull like on your part.
So, I'll tell you what.....I'll give you last crack, OK???
And I will do my best not to retaliate...Can't promise 100% but I'll try.
The balls in your court. :)
 
Your position is fairly obvious and boils down to supporting a kindred soul





For someone that doesn't take nicely to abuse and bullying, you aint doing a bad job yourself....... :)
But I have broad shoulders.
Obviously you have not calmed down from my hitting a home run with regards to my giving the reason for your agenda...But you did ask me to supply it.
With my abuse, not generally my style by the way, but after answering chinglu many times and getting the same regurgitation back, I decided to cut to the core with some home truths.....Like I said, generally not my style but when one is confronted with a troll like chinglu, one takes a different tack that may not be ideal.....Funny though, you have not mentioned anyone else.
Again may I suggest you take the time to check out the thread, and see how many others also lost their cool with the obvious troll chinglu


You may like chinglu's simplified reductions, but that doesn't change the fact that they are wrong.
Being a layman, my explanations are also rather simplified, but with right on their side with regards to the present debate at least.


Now in reality, all you and I are doing is derailing this thread...yes, you and I!...It takes two to tango, OK?
Now it's going to take someone man enough to short circuit the derailing, by not replying. RPENNER has certainly done that even in the face of unecessary, against the rules goading by both chinglu and you.
My nature has me never backing away from a scrap, especially when in the right, although this is getting rather puerile and vengefull like on your part.
So, I'll tell you what.....I'll give you last crack, OK???
And I will do my best not to retaliate...Can't promise 100% but I'll try.
The balls in your court. :)

Nut job, I wasn't talking to you, but at any rate, here is one final example of your stupidity and ongoing attempts at derailment, which is, after all only an expression of your fear.

You made some reference to my posting on another thread about my favourite book being "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"

You tried to turn that into some anti establishment consiracy on my part.

Whereas, had you done even the most basic checking, you would have found (Wiki) that ..

The subjects of Mackay's debunking include economic bubbles, alchemy, crusades, witch-hunts, prophecies, fortune-telling, magnetisers (influence of imagination in curing disease), shape of hair and beard (influence of politics and religion on), murder through poisoning, haunted houses, popular follies of great cities, popular admiration of great thieves, duels, and relics. Present day writers on economics, such as Andrew Tobias and Michael Lewis, laud the three chapters on economic bubbles.[1] Scientist and astronomer Carl Sagan mentioned the book in his own discussion about pseudoscience, popular delusions, and hoaxes.

So if anything, it was PRO establishment.

Nut job.

Way beyond your pay grade though.

You are an embarrassment even to have to talk to.
 
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