Gravitational waves from black hole merger

[hansda]

No mass escaped.

In the LIGO analysis 3 solar mass were lost or escaped from the black-holes pair.

Some energy escaped which (per Einstein) has a mass equivalency.

But some masses were lost or escaped from a black hole. If nothing can escape a black hole, how energy can escape a black hole?

Small black holes can lose energy (which equals mass in this case) through evaporation.

I think you are talking about Hawking Radiation which is still not observed in reality.

I see no similarities. The forces acting on the two are very different.

In the proton-proton collision, they are accelerated towards speed of light before collision. Here also the two black holes were accelerated towards speed of light before collision.

 

[paddoboy]

I dont have the contact id of the exact experts on this subject.

I'm sure if you try hard enough you may find some...try some reputable learning institutions for a start.

 

[hansda]

I'm sure if you try hard enough you may find some...try some reputable learning institutions for a start.

It seems you have a lot of contacts with the experts on this subject. I think it will be quite useful to the forum readers, if suitable answers can be found for these questions which i raised in this forum.

 

[paddoboy]

It seems you have a lot of contacts with the experts on this subject. I think it will be quite useful to the forum readers, if suitable answers can be found for these questions which i raised in this forum.

I believe you are quite capable of getting the answers you seek, and I also believe the answers have been given in this and other threads on gravitational waves.

 

[paddoboy]

In the LIGO analysis 3 solar mass were lost or escaped from the black-holes pair.
But some masses were lost or escaped from a black hole. If nothing can escape a black hole, how energy can escape a black hole?

The energy is carried away by the gravitational waves.
Spacetime and gravity are also nonlinear, meaning in effect that gravity makes gravity: Plus the gravity of a BH is a fossil field from the star from whence it formed.
Not sure how else to explain it so perhaps someone could have ago.
In the meantime, here are some links......
http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article...vitational-waves-from-two-merging-black-holes

http://www.askamathematician.com/20...vity-then-how-does-the-gravity-itself-escape/

I think you are talking about Hawking Radiation which is still not observed in reality.

Before this incredible LIGO discovery, both Gravitational waves and BH's were only indirectly evident and observable:
While you are correct re Hawking Radiation has not yet been observed, particle pair creation [which also has never been observed] is also a basic fundamental aspect of quantum theory, and we really do not have any reason to believe it to be wrong as yet.
It's admirable being inquisitive and to ask questions re these great discoveries, but also it's worth remembering that those at the coal face are not pulling these scenarios out of their backside.
You probably remember the false alarm with BICEP2 and its gravitational waves and Inflation results.
These results were eventually falsified, but falsified by fellow mainstream scientists, certainly not by jokers on a science forum that like to try and tear SR/GR and accepted cosmology apart, mostly based on misunderstandings, fabricated scenarios and SFA. This is no way a remark relevant to you btw.

 

[billvon]

In the LIGO analysis 3 solar mass were lost or escaped from the black-holes pair.

"Lost" is the important word in your statement there.

But some masses were lost or escaped from a black hole. If nothing can escape a black hole, how energy can escape a black hole?

Energy can escape a black hole in many ways. It can emit Hawking radiation. It can slow down. It can lose its charge.

I think you are talking about Hawking Radiation which is still not observed in reality.

Until recently, neither were gravity waves.

In the proton-proton collision, they are accelerated towards speed of light before collision. Here also the two black holes were accelerated towards speed of light before collision.

Protons need not be accelerated to near the speed of light before collision. Keep in mind that proton-proton fusion happens at about 10 million degrees Kelvin; at those temperatures, average particle speeds are only about 4x10^5 meters per second, or about .1% of the speed of light.

 

[brucep]

"Lost" is the important word in your statement there.

Energy can escape a black hole in many ways. It can emit Hawking radiation. It can slow down. It can lose its charge.

Until recently, neither were gravity waves.

Protons need not be accelerated to near the speed of light before collision. Keep in mind that proton-proton fusion happens at about 10 million degrees Kelvin; at those temperatures, average particle speeds are only about 4x10^5 meters per second, or about .1% of the speed of light.

The Hawking radiation make up the gravitational waves. When the black holes merged 3 solar mass was radiated as gravitational energy in the form of a wave propagating the g_field. In quantum gravity they might say the gravitational wave is comprised of gravitons. As it propagates the g_field it contributes to the local spacetime curvature, gravity, as it passes. As they expand they decrease in intensity while total energy is conserved globally. They're not reflected, refracted, absorbed or transmitted. As they propagate the g_field the deltas they cause are expressed as tidal accelerations. That's what LIGO is measuring a change in the distance between test mass due to tidal accelerations caused by the passing gravitational wave. Hawking Radiation is very similar to the CMBR remnant radiation where the total energy is globally conserved because the remnant CMBR photons energy remains forever below the minimum energy required to interact with matter. Gravitational radiation only interacts through tidal accelerations and total energy is globally conserved.

 

[expletives deleted]

brucep:

The Hawking radiation make up the gravitational waves. When the black holes merged 3 solar mass was radiated as gravitational energy in the form of a wave propagating the g_field. In quantum gravity they might say the gravitational wave is comprised of gravitons. As it propagates the g_field it contributes to the local spacetime curvature, gravity, as it passes. As they expand they decrease in intensity while total energy is conserved globally. They're not reflected, refracted, absorbed or transmitted. As they propagate the g_field the deltas they cause are expressed as tidal accelerations. That's what LIGO is measuring a change in the distance between test mass due to tidal accelerations caused by the passing gravitational wave. Hawking Radiation is very similar to the CMBR remnant radiation where the total energy is globally conserved because the remnant CMBR photons energy remains forever below the minimum energy required to interact with matter. Gravitational radiation only interacts through tidal accelerations and total energy is globally conserved.

That is very informative, brucep. Thanks. Your learned comments prompt me to wonder if the propagating g-wave would have retained enough energy to be detected at all after traversing an expanding universal space and innumerable chaotic g-field conditions from all the gas and duct clouds, sun and planets and other massive and dynamic sources of g-waves going in all directions since Big Bang. I am wondering that just as Libration regions cancel out competing g-fields, wouldn't any slowly spreading g-wave lose much energy during random quantum and counter-g-waves and such over the 1.3 Billion LY propagation? My reasoning for this is that the expanding universe space weakens the energy levels of E-M radiation from distant sources to CMB levels which can only be detected because the E-M detecting apparatus is capable of it. But for G-W radiations we only have a-LIGO system which can only detect if it G-W transiently affects the test mass positions; which requires much assuming and correcting and so forth, and then still be subject to other disturbances which have no connection with G-Ws (unlike E-M detector systems which are specific and easily tuned to a range of E-M wavelengths). Have I made any sense with my question? If so, can you or some other learned person comment on how the distant G-W can survive the intervening quantum and expanding universe space attenuation and intervening G-W fields interference and attenuation also, over 1.3 Billion LY propagation? Thanks.

 

[paddoboy]

If so, can you or some other learned person comment on how the distant G-W can survive the intervening quantum and expanding universe space attenuation and intervening G-W fields interference and attenuation also, over 1.3 Billion LY propagation? Thanks.

Thank you sincerely for your question.
My thoughts : Detecting the gravitational wave from the BB, 13.83 billion years ago will certainly be far more difficult, but of course the detection of gravitational waves from coalescing BH's 1.3 billion years ago is now null and void: That most certainly has been confirmed, along with direct confirmation of BH's.
More to come I would imagine, so interesting times ahead I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[The God]

The Hawking radiation make up the gravitational waves....

??
Why Mods allow you to post in science section ??
In some other post you said that the momentum etc of a falling / dropped object remains conserved, showing complete lack of basic understanding.

 

[The God]

Thank you sincerely for your question.
My thoughts : Detecting the gravitational wave from the BB, 13.83 billion years ago will certainly be far more difficult, but of course the detection of gravitational waves from coalescing BH's 1.3 billion years ago is now null and void: That most certainly has been confirmed, along with direct confirmation of BH's.
More to come I would imagine, so interesting times ahead I'm sure you'll agree.

If you think thats the explanation for Expletive Delted points, then have a relook to his points....

 

[paddoboy]

If you think thats the explanation for Expletive Delted points, then have a relook to his points....

You speaking for expletives deleted my friend?
Actually upon reading my answer, I did happen to put it rather carelessly and not meaning what I wanted to say...
Let me rephrase.......
Detecting the gravitational wave from the BB, 13.83 billion years ago will certainly be far more difficult, but of course the detection of gravitational waves from coalescing BH's 1.3 billion years ago is effectively confirmed and any "casting of doubts" onto those results is now null and void...kapoot!: That most certainly has been confirmed, along with direct confirmation of BH's.
There now, that's better! Thank you my friend.
More to come I would imagine, so interesting times ahead I'm sure you'll agree.
The rest of his post is neither here nor there, and if either or both of you still have doubts, or just plain questions, or both, than there is an appropriate reputable process to go through in line with the scientific method and peer review.
Again, I predict interesting times ahead with this new way of researching data from the Universe around us.

 

[The God]

You speaking for expletives deleted my friend?
Actually upon reading my answer, I did happen to put it rather carelessly and not meaning what I wanted to say...
Let me rephrase.......
Detecting the gravitational wave from the BB, 13.83 billion years ago will certainly be far more difficult, but of course the detection of gravitational waves from coalescing BH's 1.3 billion years ago is effectively confirmed and any "casting of doubts" onto those results is now null and void...kapoot!: That most certainly has been confirmed, along with direct confirmation of BH's.
There now, that's better! Thank you my friend.
More to come I would imagine, so interesting times ahead I'm sure you'll agree.
The rest of his post is neither here nor there, and if either or both of you still have doubts, or just plain questions, or both, than there is an appropriate reputable process to go through in line with the scientific method and peer review.
Again, I predict interesting times ahead with this new way of researching data from the Universe around us.

Basically speaking, you are not capable of any content based discussion......Ok, enjoy the discovery of BH GW !!

 

[paddoboy]

Basically speaking, you are not capable of any content based discussion......Ok, enjoy the discovery of BH GW !!

Take it easy! Why does this confirmation bug you so emotionally?
This year is going to be remarkable I sense, based on those two confirmations.
But don't worry, I'll keep and eye and an ear out for you, and list and report all that will stem from this confirmation for you to read right here. Stay tuned!

 

[krash661]

??
Why Mods allow you to post in science section ??
In some other post you said that the momentum etc of a falling / dropped object remains conserved, showing complete lack of basic understanding.

what was your other sock-puppet handle, before you came back here as this god?

edit--
something strange:

HomeMembers>
Sciforums - Error
This member limits who may view their full profile.


how did you hide your profile(let alone why)?-- i am interested in this.

 

[hansda]

I believe you are quite capable of getting the answers you seek, ...

Thats why I am putting my questions in this forum so that some forum reader can get the answers or atleast make an attempt to answer them.

...and I also believe the answers have been given in this and other threads on gravitational waves.

Can you answer my questions in the post #97 or in the post #100.

 

[hansda]

"Lost" is the important word in your statement there.

That's true. But we should also try to understand the reality of the word "lost" in this context, as physics deals with reality only.

Energy can escape a black hole in many ways. It can emit Hawking radiation. It can slow down. It can lose its charge.

If energy can escape a black hole in many ways, your statement in post #122 that, "Nothing can escape a black hole (outside of very specific circumstances which don't apply with massive black holes.)" is not true.

Protons need not be accelerated to near the speed of light before collision. Keep in mind that proton-proton fusion happens at about 10 million degrees Kelvin; at those temperatures, average particle speeds are only about 4x10^5 meters per second, or about .1% of the speed of light.

I think the black hole speed were much higher than the proton speed(.1%c) in the two black holes collision.

 

[hansda]

The Hawking radiation make up the gravitational waves.

Is this true? I think Hawking radiation is Electro-Magnetic in nature whereas Gravitational Waves are non-Electro-Magnetic.

 

[The God]

how did you hide your profile(let alone why)?-- i am interested in this.

You are such an intelligence, you should be able to find it out wihout self destructing....

 

[The God]

Is this true? I think Hawking radiation is Electro-Magnetic in nature whereas Gravitational Waves are non-Electro-Magnetic.

better way is to say that HR is QM stuff while GW is all classic........