Gravitational waves from black hole merger

[brucep]

In this case one must consider the equivalence of energy and mass. The objects lost kinetic energy, but due to E = MC² this is much the same as a mass loss.

E.g. Photons have no mass if at rest, but the energy that they have when moving at speed of light, makes the behave as if they had a mass. Gravity can attract photons, even if they don't have a mass while not moving - all their mass comes from their energy.

And yes, objects become "heavier" if they accelerate (e.g. they gain mass by gaining energy). This has been confirmed in experiments.

Mass is an invariant. What increases, without bound, is momentum. BTW in geometric units it's E=M. The c^2 is for converting conventional units of mass, kg, to conventional unit energy, Joule. kg m^2 s^-2. c^2 has nothing to do with the speed of light. c^2 isn't a speed. Another BTW: the capital C is the symbol for coulomb.

 

[billvon]

When the two massive black holes collide, it is a sort of a bang and some mass is lost to energy. The way in nuclear fusion/fission a particle is fragmented by collision, similar fragmentation also could have happened here.

Hmm. Nothing can escape a black hole (outside of very specific circumstances which don't apply with massive black holes.) Although black holes can lose mass to radiation, I have never heard any way any "fragmentation" could occur. Black holes are not atomic nuclei.

 

[Q-reeus]

In this case one must consider the equivalence of energy and mass. The objects lost kinetic energy, but due to E = MC² this is much the same as a mass loss.

E.g. Photons have no mass if at rest, but the energy that they have when moving at speed of light, makes the behave as if they had a mass. Gravity can attract photons, even if they don't have a mass while not moving - all their mass comes from their energy.

And yes, objects become "heavier" if they accelerate (e.g. they gain mass by gaining energy). This has been confirmed in experiments.

Additional to what Billy T pointed out in #119, that highlighted in red is wrong. At least up to the point where strong gravity dominates, in-spiralling has KE increasing but at half the rate gravitational PE is being lost - the balance presumably is owing to GW's. What is continually lost during in-spiral is net orbital angular momentum - again the balance presumably radiated away as GW's. Won't hazard a guess as to final angular momentum since it will additionally depend on any contained in each co-orbiting mass prior to merger.

 

[hansda]

So, gravitational radiation generated before collision. All loss of mass happened before collision. You think so?

That is my understanding of the event.

So, no mass loss and gravitational radiation happened at the time duration of two black-holes collision. All these happened before the collision. Right?

 

[hansda]

In this case one must consider the equivalence of energy and mass.

This consideration should be made at the time of collision or before that?

The objects lost kinetic energy, but due to E = MC² this is much the same as a mass loss.

If you consider this as a relativistic case, in fact mass and kinetic energy will increase due Lorentz Transformation.

E.g. Photons have no mass if at rest, but the energy that they have when moving at speed of light, makes the behave as if they had a mass. Gravity can attract photons, even if they don't have a mass while not moving - all their mass comes from their energy.

OK.

And yes, objects become "heavier" if they accelerate (e.g. they gain mass by gaining energy). This has been confirmed in experiments.

I think here you are contradicting your earlier statement above where you mentioned that kinetic energy and mass will be lost due E = MC^2.

 

[origin]

So, no mass loss and gravitational radiation happened at the time duration of two black-holes collision. All these happened before the collision. Right?

I don't think black holes collide, they merge. What do you mean by gravitational radiation? Gravitational waves? What do you mean by the time duration of black holes merging?

 

[hansda]

No, the only part of this energy conversion that was in the form of electromagnetic radiation are the gamma rays, the kinetic energy of the helium was never electromagnetic in nature.

Helium can absorb photon particles and enhance its kinetic energy.

I don't no why you insist that Mass-energy conversion must be in the form of electromagnetism. If it is because "c" is in the formula, then you are operating under a misconception. c may be the speed of electromagnetic radiation, but it is more generally the invariant speed of the universe.

Please see the Einstein's paper where he has equated loss of kinetic energy of a mass with the Light energy. https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/e_mc2.pdf . What do you mean by invariant speed of universe?

Electromagnetic radiation's speed(and gravitational radiation's speed) is determined by c, c is not determined by electromagnetic radiation.

c is the speed of light, which is constant and independent of an observer's speed.

BTW, are you suggesting that the mass-loss and gravitational radiation happened at the time duration of collision between the two black-holes.

 

[hansda]

I don't think black holes collide, they merge.

OK, if you prefer that term, that be it.

What do you mean by gravitational radiation? Gravitational waves?

YES.

What do you mean by the time duration of black holes merging?

Is the merging instantaneous or a prolonged process?

 

[hansda]

Hmm. Nothing can escape a black hole (outside of very specific circumstances which don't apply with massive black holes.)

How in this case some mass escaped the black hole? What is the difference between black hole and massive black hole?

Although black holes can lose mass to radiation, I have never heard any way any "fragmentation" could occur. Black holes are not atomic nuclei.

Here two black holes are at a relativistic speed and colliding. I think it is similar to proton-proton collision. Though it is my speculation.

 

[origin]

Is the merging instantaneous or a prolonged process?

I would assume it is somewhere in between those. When the black holes are orbiting each other they are emiting gravitational waves, when they merge they stop emitting gravitational waves. OK?

 

[hansda]

I would assume it is somewhere in between those. When the black holes are orbiting each other they are emiting gravitational waves, when they merge they stop emitting gravitational waves. OK?

OK. So, when the black-holes merge, there is no mass loss?

 

[origin]

OK. So, when the black-holes merge, there is no mass loss?

I don't know.

 

[hansda]

I don't know.

So, at the time of merging you are not sure whether there is a mass loss but you are sure that there is no gravitational wave emission at the time of merger. Right?

 

[origin]

So, at the time of merging you are not sure whether there is a mass loss but you are sure that there is no gravitational wave emission at the time of merger. Right?

Geeze, this is really getting boring. I know what the reports on the event and GR have told us. As the massive bodies orbit each other energy is given off energy in the form of gravity waves. When the bodies combine they will stop producing gravity waves. I do not know the specifics of what is going on a nano time scale before and after the black holes merge. If these specifics are important to you there are ask a physicist sites that could help you, or email a phyicist.

 

[hansda]

Geeze, this is really getting boring. I know what the reports on the event and GR have told us. As the massive bodies orbit each other energy is given off energy in the form of gravity waves. When the bodies combine they will stop producing gravity waves. I do not know the specifics of what is going on a nano time scale before and after the black holes merge. If these specifics are important to you there are ask a physicist sites that could help you, or email a phyicist.

My understanding is that some mass loss might have happened in the duration of merging.

 

[origin]

My understanding is that some mass loss might have happened in the duration of merging.

Interesting, is there a source for that I could look at?

 

[hansda]

Interesting, is there a source for that I could look at?

I think I already given that link earlier. It is a NASA detection of gamma rays with some time-delay from the LIGO detection of GW.

 

[paddoboy]

OK. So, when the black-holes merge, there is no mass loss?

http://www.astro.cardiff.ac.uk/research/gravity/tutorial/?page=4blackholecollisions

So far you seem unsatisfied with the answers you have been given.
So why not voice your concerns with the professionals involved?

 

[billvon]

How in this case some mass escaped the black hole?

No mass escaped. Some energy escaped which (per Einstein) has a mass equivalency.

What is the difference between black hole and massive black hole?

Small black holes can lose energy (which equals mass in this case) through evaporation.

Here two black holes are at a relativistic speed and colliding. I think it is similar to proton-proton collision.

I see no similarities. The forces acting on the two are very different.

 

[hansda]

http://www.astro.cardiff.ac.uk/research/gravity/tutorial/?page=4blackholecollisions

Thanks.

So far you seem unsatisfied with the answers you have been given.

YES. Some of my questions are still un-answered.

So why not voice your concerns with the professionals involved?

I dont have the contact id of the exact experts on this subject.