this a good read,would you give up your place in heaven for me and this an atheist on judgement day and this regarding morality, and yet one more a moral arguement against theism dont condemn one person morals without first looking at your ownQuigly said:
Good without evil? Evil without Good?
- Thread starter Quigly
- Start date
Quigly said: It seems to me that atheists want it both ways.
*************
M*W: Exactly what do you mean when you state "both ways?"
*************
Quigly said: They want to live how they want to live on earth, (Whether moral or not moral)
*************
M*W: Let's clear this up once and for all. Show us some significant statistics proving the ratios of morality and immorality of atheists.
*************
Quigly continued: without having to believe or follow a God they don't understand,
*************
M*W: But you xians keep saying that "we're all given a choice to believe or not...". Why, then, do you state that atheists "want to live how they want to live on earth, without HAVING TO BELIEVE or follow a God they DON'T UNDERSTAND...?.
If we are truly given a 'choice of what to believe,' then atheists are free to believe what they want to believe and live on Earth the way they want to live on Earth. Your statements are biased. You're trying to cram your fairy tale god down our throats (meaning that we do not really have any choice nor SHOULD have any choice) according to you! That is extreme arrogance on your part, but I'm not surprised. That is the typical xian approach.
You go on to say that we "don't understand" the god you believe in. Atheists DO understand the xian concept of "God," but it's not a matter that we have chosen to be atheists because of our MISUNDERSTANDING the concept, we just find no evidence in your concept nor do we find any need for a god. Again, this has nothing to do with morality nor misunderstanding.
*************
Quigly continued: ...but if it so happens that they die, they wouldn't want a God they refused to believe in to punish them because they were humans. It's called justification.
*************
M*W: No, it is NOT called "justification." You are the one who doesn't understand. It is xians who want "justification" for their beliefs. When atheists die, they die. They still see no point on their deathbed in believing there could really have been a god after all!
*************
Quigly continued: You don't want to believe in God, yet if you die and there is a God, you still want to control what happens to your destiny.
*************
M*W: Quigly, you and the entire race of humanity has NOT been able to prove there is a god. It's not a matter of atheists WANTING or NOT WANTING to believe in a god. Atheists don't even consider that to be a dilemma. It's a non-issue.
*************
Quigly continued: You want to believe that God must bow to your wishes of providing you an eternal life of happiness even though you refused to believe in something that was right under your nose the whole time.
*************
M*W: You are more misinformed than I first thought. There is no god who bows to us nor we to him. We also are not concerned with "eternal life." The only person who provides us happiness is we ourselves. We take responsibility for our own happiness without infringing upon anyone else's happiness. The only thing we believe to be "right under our nose" is our upper lip.
*************
Quigly continued: As an atheist, tell me that if you died and discovered that there was a God, would you be alright with allowing God to do whatever he wants with your soul/body/mind? At that point, it's all in, no turning back. It is his decision.
*************
M*W: There will be no discovery of a god when each of us die! Atheists don't expect to see a god when they die, but you do. The reality of it is, that no one has come back to say they saw god. Ironically, when you and every other xian dies, you will experience no joy in the beyond, because you'll be deader than a door nail just like all humankind. Different roads may take us there, but we will all have the same destiny of being just a memory in the minds of those who loved us on Earth.
*************
Quigly continued: If I found out today that God would allow atheists and christians and everyone alike into heaven, would I change the way I lived? No, I would continue to pursue a relationship with God and follow his will.
*************
M*W: And that is your choice, just as our choice is ours. What we believe in and that which we doubt is our Earthly choice, but we all inevitably end up the same.
*************
M*W: Exactly what do you mean when you state "both ways?"
*************
Quigly said: They want to live how they want to live on earth, (Whether moral or not moral)
*************
M*W: Let's clear this up once and for all. Show us some significant statistics proving the ratios of morality and immorality of atheists.
*************
Quigly continued: without having to believe or follow a God they don't understand,
*************
M*W: But you xians keep saying that "we're all given a choice to believe or not...". Why, then, do you state that atheists "want to live how they want to live on earth, without HAVING TO BELIEVE or follow a God they DON'T UNDERSTAND...?.
If we are truly given a 'choice of what to believe,' then atheists are free to believe what they want to believe and live on Earth the way they want to live on Earth. Your statements are biased. You're trying to cram your fairy tale god down our throats (meaning that we do not really have any choice nor SHOULD have any choice) according to you! That is extreme arrogance on your part, but I'm not surprised. That is the typical xian approach.
You go on to say that we "don't understand" the god you believe in. Atheists DO understand the xian concept of "God," but it's not a matter that we have chosen to be atheists because of our MISUNDERSTANDING the concept, we just find no evidence in your concept nor do we find any need for a god. Again, this has nothing to do with morality nor misunderstanding.
*************
Quigly continued: ...but if it so happens that they die, they wouldn't want a God they refused to believe in to punish them because they were humans. It's called justification.
*************
M*W: No, it is NOT called "justification." You are the one who doesn't understand. It is xians who want "justification" for their beliefs. When atheists die, they die. They still see no point on their deathbed in believing there could really have been a god after all!
*************
Quigly continued: You don't want to believe in God, yet if you die and there is a God, you still want to control what happens to your destiny.
*************
M*W: Quigly, you and the entire race of humanity has NOT been able to prove there is a god. It's not a matter of atheists WANTING or NOT WANTING to believe in a god. Atheists don't even consider that to be a dilemma. It's a non-issue.
*************
Quigly continued: You want to believe that God must bow to your wishes of providing you an eternal life of happiness even though you refused to believe in something that was right under your nose the whole time.
*************
M*W: You are more misinformed than I first thought. There is no god who bows to us nor we to him. We also are not concerned with "eternal life." The only person who provides us happiness is we ourselves. We take responsibility for our own happiness without infringing upon anyone else's happiness. The only thing we believe to be "right under our nose" is our upper lip.
*************
Quigly continued: As an atheist, tell me that if you died and discovered that there was a God, would you be alright with allowing God to do whatever he wants with your soul/body/mind? At that point, it's all in, no turning back. It is his decision.
*************
M*W: There will be no discovery of a god when each of us die! Atheists don't expect to see a god when they die, but you do. The reality of it is, that no one has come back to say they saw god. Ironically, when you and every other xian dies, you will experience no joy in the beyond, because you'll be deader than a door nail just like all humankind. Different roads may take us there, but we will all have the same destiny of being just a memory in the minds of those who loved us on Earth.
*************
Quigly continued: If I found out today that God would allow atheists and christians and everyone alike into heaven, would I change the way I lived? No, I would continue to pursue a relationship with God and follow his will.
*************
M*W: And that is your choice, just as our choice is ours. What we believe in and that which we doubt is our Earthly choice, but we all inevitably end up the same.
No. I'm not saying that, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. God will except the athiest who are living in a manner that is in keeping with his gospel, even if they don't beleive they are doing it for Him. This is what Christ's attoning sacrafice was for. So that if you did the best that you could, but you're human anyway, you can still be granted salvation. There is a place in heaven for those who "are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." D&C 76:75. They will be saved too.
Well, I can see where you are coming from with the scripture. All I can say is that it is necessary for God to punish wrong-doers. Sorry I can't explain that any furhter, but I have a job interview to get to in a few minutes, and I want to adress the other points. Maybe tomorrow I can get more in depth with it, but I don't really have time to read the passages and see the contetxt. Sorry.
You're welcome, and I hope it was in-depth enough.
The passage in Matthew (once again, a fairly quick explatnation) refers to the eternal hell that only the devil and his minions will go into. These are the people that knowingly refused, fought against god since the begining of time. Of course they will have a horrible punishment. These aren't people, though. They are spirits who never got the chance to have a body. They were thrust out of heaven before the Earth was even made, and have spent thier entire lives trying to turn as many people away from god's was possible. They will get their just deserts.
Lazarus:
Okay. Here's my explanaiton of what it is saying. The rich man was a very greedy man. As it says, Lazurus wanted the crumbs off the rich man's table, so the rich man certainly was doing nothing to help Lazarus's fare at all. The rich man was not doing a very good job of following God's will. Lazurus, however, was doing what he could. He had a very terrible positioni, and could do little to better himself, let alone others. After death, the spirits of Lazurus were both resurected, Lazarus's to paradise and The Rich Man's to thet spirit prison. I don't recall ever having said that the spirti prison would be just as pleasant as paradise. He was tormented by seeing that Lazarus, the man who he never viewed to be even half a man, was being treated warmly, and here he was, a man who was always ahead in life so far behind no that he was dead. The flame that he was tormented in is metaphorical. There is really no fire, but there is that horrible feeling of having sinned. of course he's desperate and hurting - he has realized the error of his ways.
Well, okay. Here's what I can say about the scriptural references. Isaiah is a very complex, metaphorical prophasy. I'm not exactly sure what the scripture is referring to, but it may have something to do with the suffering that will be found at the last days. I'm actually pretty sure that that is what it is refferring to. It talks a lot of Babylon, which is metaphorical for the sinful world. Babylon as a city was very defiant of God's way, always worshiped false gods and spread that worship to other nations. They were pretty much the opposite of what God wanted of His children. Therefore, when prophets refer to Babylon, it is usually in reference to the sinful world, since that city met its ruin. Isaiah may be profesying the destruciton of the sinful world, which will happen in a battle between God and the Devil, but that's just my interpretation.
The psamls quote is a sort of vengeful song by the captive jews. They are saying that, since they have been treated so badly in captivity, they would gladly kill their captors' children by dashing them to the ground. I admit, that's pretty violent, but that isn't God killing them.
The numbers quote: That is an instance of God sending his chosen people against another nation. There a couple of things I would like to point out about that, though. God had promised to the tribe of Isreal that they would inhabit a certain land. I do not remember specifically who the Midianites were, but there are three things they could be: People who were inhabiting their promised land, People who wouldn't let the Isrealites pass to their promised land, or People who attacked them when they were already there. I'm sure, though, that it was not the latter, because they weren't in their promised land yet. So, whether it was the first or second is no matter. They were a tribe who was disobedient to God's commandments. They probably worshiped false God's and had no sort of law. Though this is not in the Bible, history would say that God raised some prophets amoung the Midianites to try to turn them from their evil ways. These prophets were probably disregarded, and the only recourse was punishment at the hands of a, yes loving, but also just God.
Now, for a little more information on why God would allow this kind of informaiton. Lucky for you, most of this is coming from Jehovah's Witness liturature, so you won't get too many Book of Mormon quotes
Humans are usually to blame for suffering, not God. They commit crimes, fight wars, pollute. Gal 6:7 "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Many of the sufferings are inflicted on Man because of Man.
Satan tempts people to be wicked
These afflictions were caused by Adam And Eve's first transgression. I still hold by my point, however, that this transgression was necessary and that this suffering is necessary, even though this JW liturature does not think that way.
Eclesiastes 9:11 says that chance plays a part in suffering.
But now we get to your question: Why would a loving god allow this to happen to his children, even if he doesn't do it himself? Once again, I say, so we can learn and progress. (Which point was that? I think it was B or C.) Another thing to consider is that this suffering won't be forever.
Another reason is that he is patient. He doesn't like to see man doing such horrid things to his brothers and sisters, but God is patient and lets it keep happening (once again I say that it is so we can learn and progress.)2 Peter 3:9 "The Lork is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but tah all should come to repentance." It shows great love that He would continue to allow sinners to live, so that perhaps they would come to the truth and repent of their ways.
These violent things can not be seen as punishment from God. Many un-Godly people don't suffer anything in this world, and Jesus was cruelly mistreated in his life time.
And for one last quote Alma 60:12-13 "Do ye suppose that, because so many of your brethren have been killed it is because of their wickedness? I say unto you, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain; for I say unto yuou, there are many who have fallen by the sword; and behold it is to your condemnation; 13 for the Lord suffereth the righteous to be slain that his justice and judgment may come upon the wicked; therefore ye need not suppose that the righteous are lost because they are slain; but behold, they do enter into the rest of the Lord their God."
Most of the suffering isn't caused by God, but it is allowed by God for our own good because of his longsuffering love for us
The psamls quote is a sort of vengeful song by the captive jews. They are saying that, since they have been treated so badly in captivity, they would gladly kill their captors' children by dashing them to the ground. I admit, that's pretty violent, but that isn't God killing them.
The numbers quote: That is an instance of God sending his chosen people against another nation. There a couple of things I would like to point out about that, though. God had promised to the tribe of Isreal that they would inhabit a certain land. I do not remember specifically who the Midianites were, but there are three things they could be: People who were inhabiting their promised land, People who wouldn't let the Isrealites pass to their promised land, or People who attacked them when they were already there. I'm sure, though, that it was not the latter, because they weren't in their promised land yet. So, whether it was the first or second is no matter. They were a tribe who was disobedient to God's commandments. They probably worshiped false God's and had no sort of law. Though this is not in the Bible, history would say that God raised some prophets amoung the Midianites to try to turn them from their evil ways. These prophets were probably disregarded, and the only recourse was punishment at the hands of a, yes loving, but also just God.
Now, for a little more information on why God would allow this kind of informaiton. Lucky for you, most of this is coming from Jehovah's Witness liturature, so you won't get too many Book of Mormon quotes
Humans are usually to blame for suffering, not God. They commit crimes, fight wars, pollute. Gal 6:7 "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Many of the sufferings are inflicted on Man because of Man.
Satan tempts people to be wicked
These afflictions were caused by Adam And Eve's first transgression. I still hold by my point, however, that this transgression was necessary and that this suffering is necessary, even though this JW liturature does not think that way.
Eclesiastes 9:11 says that chance plays a part in suffering.
But now we get to your question: Why would a loving god allow this to happen to his children, even if he doesn't do it himself? Once again, I say, so we can learn and progress. (Which point was that? I think it was B or C.) Another thing to consider is that this suffering won't be forever.
Another reason is that he is patient. He doesn't like to see man doing such horrid things to his brothers and sisters, but God is patient and lets it keep happening (once again I say that it is so we can learn and progress.)2 Peter 3:9 "The Lork is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but tah all should come to repentance." It shows great love that He would continue to allow sinners to live, so that perhaps they would come to the truth and repent of their ways.
These violent things can not be seen as punishment from God. Many un-Godly people don't suffer anything in this world, and Jesus was cruelly mistreated in his life time.
And for one last quote Alma 60:12-13 "Do ye suppose that, because so many of your brethren have been killed it is because of their wickedness? I say unto you, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain; for I say unto yuou, there are many who have fallen by the sword; and behold it is to your condemnation; 13 for the Lord suffereth the righteous to be slain that his justice and judgment may come upon the wicked; therefore ye need not suppose that the righteous are lost because they are slain; but behold, they do enter into the rest of the Lord their God."
Most of the suffering isn't caused by God, but it is allowed by God for our own good because of his longsuffering love for us
They want to have no entity that has control over their destiny, but if by chance there is a God after they die, they don't want God to judge them.Medicine Woman said:
The argument was never moral vs. immoral atheists. I was merely staying neutral by including the whole of them.
We are all given a choice. They choose to not believe in God and thus live according to their own pleasures and pains.
They are free to live how they want and when they go on to the afterlife, their choosing ends as they will no longer have control. Arrogance? So your way and beliefs are better than every one elses?
Atheists find no evidence for or against a God as their are too many variables or unknowns for them. There brains can't comprehend it, yet they can't dismiss it. You're right, this has nothing to do with morality or misunderstanding, it still comes down to having to make a choice and accept the possibility of being wrong and at that point it will no longer be their choice in my opinion.
Revert to Hearts reply in which I replied too. You will see that in his argument, he would want it both ways. And again, they will make a choice at that point and if they are wrong, then God help them. If they are right, then let the grave eat away at both the christians and the atheists corpse alike.
If they can explain all the mysteries of the universe, then they would no longer question. That is not the case. It will always be a dilemna, as long as God exists.
I feel like I am repeating myself, so I will move on.
So tell us, have you died to fully know what lies beyond the grave. Please share with us.
Yet Again, another atheist citing her beliefs as superior to christian beliefs or any other religious beliefs. I ask you again, Is your way so much wiser and better than the next guys?
Quigly: They want to have no entity that has control over their destiny, but if by chance there is a God after they die, they don't want God to judge them.
*************
M*W: Atheists control their own lives, because there is absolutely NO CHANCE of any god judging us. We are responsible for our own behavior.
*************
Quigly: The argument was never moral vs. immoral atheists. I was merely staying neutral by including the whole of them. We are all given a choice. They choose to not believe in God and thus live according to their own pleasures and pains.
*************
M*W: You implied that atheists were immoral. You and your fellow xians may believe that we are all given a choice by your god, but atheists choose to believe in themselves instead. We all have choices in life, but we opt for logic and reason when we make our decisions. Atheists' choices aren't simply based on pleasure and pain. That would be the choice of a hedonist or sadomasochist. You OTOH believe in a being you cannot even prove exists! In a manner of speaking, atheists don't need a choice to believe in god or not. There is no choice. No dilemma. No issue.
*************
Quigly: They are free to live how they want and when they go on to the afterlife, their choosing ends as they will no longer have control. Arrogance? So your way and beliefs are better than every one elses?
*************
M*W: True, atheists are free to live how we choose within the laws of our society just like everyone according to the laws of their governments. Atheists do not believe they are above the governing rule, however. As for the afterlife, no one has come back and proved what it was like. We have pre-conceived religious notions of what the xian afterlife concept would be like, but atheists don't believe in these concepts as they cannot be proven. Holy books, preaching, praying and xian fellowship, doesn't make it so. Even if these concepts could be proven to exist, it is still questionable if an atheist would believe them to be true. One must learn for oneself and not take the word of others who know just as little as they do.
*************
Quigly: Atheists find no evidence for or against a God as their are too many variables or unknowns for them.
*************
M*W: Again, there are absolutely NO variables that are unknowns to atheists. We don't sit around all day long contemplating "what if there is a god, and we just don't understand?" There are NO "what ifs." If there were a god, there should be NO variables! It would be a well-known fact, and no one would argue the point! In fact, it's because atheists DO UNDERSTAND, and that's why we DON'T BELIEVE!
*************
Quigly: There brains can't comprehend it, yet they can't dismiss it.
*************
M*W: Wrong, again! Our brains can comprehend the concept, that's why we DISMISS it!
*************
Quigly: You're right, this has nothing to do with morality or misunderstanding, it still comes down to having to make a choice and accept the possibility of being wrong and at that point it will no longer be their choice in my opinion.
*************
M*W: We have made our 'choice,' since you insist on using this word. It would be more correct to use the word 'agnostic' when saying there is a choice to be made. They are of the mindset to 'choose' one way or the other. Even agnostics are still waiting some proof. Agnostics believe they still have options.
*************
Quigly: Revert to Hearts reply in which I replied too. You will see that in his argument, he would want it both ways. And again, they will make a choice at that point and if they are wrong, then God help them.
*************
M*W: Why do you insist that there is the possibility of making a wrong choice? That's what xians have been taught to believe. You've got to understand that only 25% of the world's population are xian. The other 75% are not. There is a 4% margin of error due to people who claim xianity but don't practice it. A lot of so-called xians are just in the habit of claiming xianity when they know full well they don't believe anything about xianity!
Why are you so concerned that we are making a wrong choice? Do you believe for one minute that you really want atheists and agnostics with you in the afterlife? We surely don't look forward to being with xians anywhere! And aren't you the least bit worried about the consequences of judging others?
*************
Quigly: If they are right, then let the grave eat away at both the christians and the atheists corpse alike.
*************
M*W: Now that's the first truthful observation you've made! To atheists, it not a matter of being 'right.' We don't see it as being 'right' or 'wrong.' Murder, etc., is 'wrong.' One's personal beliefs are relative and arbitrary, and they DO NOT APPLY to the rest of us.
*************
Quigly: If they can explain all the mysteries of the universe, then they would no longer question. That is not the case. It will always be a dilemna, as long as God exists.
*************
M*W: Even if atheists could explain all the mysteries of the universe, there would still not be a choice to make about god or the afterlife. Again, there is NO dilemma about this!
You believe god exists. Even if you could prove without a doubt that the god you believe in exists, it wouldn't phase any atheists. The best you could hope for is to sway some agnostics to your camp. It just won't work on atheists!
*************
Quigly: I feel like I am repeating myself, so I will move on.
So tell us, have you died to fully know what lies beyond the grave. Please share with us. Yet Again, another atheist citing her beliefs as superior to christian beliefs or any other religious beliefs. I ask you again, Is your way so much wiser and better than the next guys?
*************
M*W: Quigly, YOU are the one who is citing YOUR beliefs to be superior. One need not die to know what lies beyond the grave. Actually, the grave is the last stop. Atheists don't need the afterlife, and we don't need religion. That's why we're atheists! I'm not trying to sway to to become an atheist. As a matter of fact, you couldn't be an atheist. That's why you're an xian. If YOU could explain all the mysteries of the universe, maybe you would see that there is no god.
It would be almost impossible for a xian to suddenly become an atheist, unless he was just damn lucky, I'd say. Atheism is a process. It doesn't happen overnight, because atheism is also not a choice. It's a knowing. It's an unveiling. It's a lightbulb going off in one's brain. Atheism comes with wisdom. An atheist doesn't believe in powers and principalities. We're not bothered by demons. If there are demons, they leave us the hell alone! Atheists don't fret over what might be, we live and learn what is.
I used to be a devout xian, but it took me some 20 years to come to fully know that, what I had been spoon-fed to believe to be true, was really lie. It was all a big lie.
It's a process, not an event, and I'm glad I have arrived.
*************
M*W: Atheists control their own lives, because there is absolutely NO CHANCE of any god judging us. We are responsible for our own behavior.
*************
Quigly: The argument was never moral vs. immoral atheists. I was merely staying neutral by including the whole of them. We are all given a choice. They choose to not believe in God and thus live according to their own pleasures and pains.
*************
M*W: You implied that atheists were immoral. You and your fellow xians may believe that we are all given a choice by your god, but atheists choose to believe in themselves instead. We all have choices in life, but we opt for logic and reason when we make our decisions. Atheists' choices aren't simply based on pleasure and pain. That would be the choice of a hedonist or sadomasochist. You OTOH believe in a being you cannot even prove exists! In a manner of speaking, atheists don't need a choice to believe in god or not. There is no choice. No dilemma. No issue.
*************
Quigly: They are free to live how they want and when they go on to the afterlife, their choosing ends as they will no longer have control. Arrogance? So your way and beliefs are better than every one elses?
*************
M*W: True, atheists are free to live how we choose within the laws of our society just like everyone according to the laws of their governments. Atheists do not believe they are above the governing rule, however. As for the afterlife, no one has come back and proved what it was like. We have pre-conceived religious notions of what the xian afterlife concept would be like, but atheists don't believe in these concepts as they cannot be proven. Holy books, preaching, praying and xian fellowship, doesn't make it so. Even if these concepts could be proven to exist, it is still questionable if an atheist would believe them to be true. One must learn for oneself and not take the word of others who know just as little as they do.
*************
Quigly: Atheists find no evidence for or against a God as their are too many variables or unknowns for them.
*************
M*W: Again, there are absolutely NO variables that are unknowns to atheists. We don't sit around all day long contemplating "what if there is a god, and we just don't understand?" There are NO "what ifs." If there were a god, there should be NO variables! It would be a well-known fact, and no one would argue the point! In fact, it's because atheists DO UNDERSTAND, and that's why we DON'T BELIEVE!
*************
Quigly: There brains can't comprehend it, yet they can't dismiss it.
*************
M*W: Wrong, again! Our brains can comprehend the concept, that's why we DISMISS it!
*************
Quigly: You're right, this has nothing to do with morality or misunderstanding, it still comes down to having to make a choice and accept the possibility of being wrong and at that point it will no longer be their choice in my opinion.
*************
M*W: We have made our 'choice,' since you insist on using this word. It would be more correct to use the word 'agnostic' when saying there is a choice to be made. They are of the mindset to 'choose' one way or the other. Even agnostics are still waiting some proof. Agnostics believe they still have options.
*************
Quigly: Revert to Hearts reply in which I replied too. You will see that in his argument, he would want it both ways. And again, they will make a choice at that point and if they are wrong, then God help them.
*************
M*W: Why do you insist that there is the possibility of making a wrong choice? That's what xians have been taught to believe. You've got to understand that only 25% of the world's population are xian. The other 75% are not. There is a 4% margin of error due to people who claim xianity but don't practice it. A lot of so-called xians are just in the habit of claiming xianity when they know full well they don't believe anything about xianity!
Why are you so concerned that we are making a wrong choice? Do you believe for one minute that you really want atheists and agnostics with you in the afterlife? We surely don't look forward to being with xians anywhere! And aren't you the least bit worried about the consequences of judging others?
*************
Quigly: If they are right, then let the grave eat away at both the christians and the atheists corpse alike.
*************
M*W: Now that's the first truthful observation you've made! To atheists, it not a matter of being 'right.' We don't see it as being 'right' or 'wrong.' Murder, etc., is 'wrong.' One's personal beliefs are relative and arbitrary, and they DO NOT APPLY to the rest of us.
*************
Quigly: If they can explain all the mysteries of the universe, then they would no longer question. That is not the case. It will always be a dilemna, as long as God exists.
*************
M*W: Even if atheists could explain all the mysteries of the universe, there would still not be a choice to make about god or the afterlife. Again, there is NO dilemma about this!
You believe god exists. Even if you could prove without a doubt that the god you believe in exists, it wouldn't phase any atheists. The best you could hope for is to sway some agnostics to your camp. It just won't work on atheists!
*************
Quigly: I feel like I am repeating myself, so I will move on.
So tell us, have you died to fully know what lies beyond the grave. Please share with us. Yet Again, another atheist citing her beliefs as superior to christian beliefs or any other religious beliefs. I ask you again, Is your way so much wiser and better than the next guys?
*************
M*W: Quigly, YOU are the one who is citing YOUR beliefs to be superior. One need not die to know what lies beyond the grave. Actually, the grave is the last stop. Atheists don't need the afterlife, and we don't need religion. That's why we're atheists! I'm not trying to sway to to become an atheist. As a matter of fact, you couldn't be an atheist. That's why you're an xian. If YOU could explain all the mysteries of the universe, maybe you would see that there is no god.
It would be almost impossible for a xian to suddenly become an atheist, unless he was just damn lucky, I'd say. Atheism is a process. It doesn't happen overnight, because atheism is also not a choice. It's a knowing. It's an unveiling. It's a lightbulb going off in one's brain. Atheism comes with wisdom. An atheist doesn't believe in powers and principalities. We're not bothered by demons. If there are demons, they leave us the hell alone! Atheists don't fret over what might be, we live and learn what is.
I used to be a devout xian, but it took me some 20 years to come to fully know that, what I had been spoon-fed to believe to be true, was really lie. It was all a big lie.
It's a process, not an event, and I'm glad I have arrived.
Ok, your big argument is that it is not a choice. It is a way of life right? It is a process as you say to become an atheist. Cause and effect. You say there is no choice to be made, but every cause has an effect. Every action has a reaction. Your living, though you claim is not a choice, is truelly a choice, even if the choice is to claim that christians are wrong and that atheism is right. This is a choice. At the beginning of your process a choice was made that there is no god for you. This may have become your way of life, but it took a choice as some part. Even the choice to deny christianity. You deny choice, but all of life is made of choice. If you eat a ham sandwich today, you have made a choice. If you go 20 mph over the speed limit or shoot a small child or deny the possibility of the existance of God, you have made a choice. Is it that hard to understand? Just because you don't know and don't believe and don't think there is enough proof today to say that the possibility exists, doesn't negate the possibility. It may for you, but not necessarily in the big scheme of things. The universe is big and our world is small and you and I are both subject to limited knowledge. Thus for you or I to state that we know the end all would be absurdity.
Last thing for now, you said that for atheists, after you die, that is it, there isn't a possibility of an afterlife, ect. ect...
1. How do you know? 100% faultless proof please.
2. Is that really up to you after you die? Some people believe you will be reborn as another person or animal. Some people believe that eternal life is contingent on the memories in the minds of people you knew(your legacy), yet others believe that you will be a star in the sky looking down over the universe. If you happen to be subject to one of those, is it really up to you?
Last thing for now, you said that for atheists, after you die, that is it, there isn't a possibility of an afterlife, ect. ect...
1. How do you know? 100% faultless proof please.
2. Is that really up to you after you die? Some people believe you will be reborn as another person or animal. Some people believe that eternal life is contingent on the memories in the minds of people you knew(your legacy), yet others believe that you will be a star in the sky looking down over the universe. If you happen to be subject to one of those, is it really up to you?
Quiqly; Proving Existence or Non-Existence.
The existence of a thing can be conclusively proved by producing one single instance of the thing.
To put that another way: -
When the existence of a thing is denied, This can be proven wrong by producing one single instance of the thing said not to exist
The non-existence of a thing can never be conclusively proved because there is always the theoretical assumption that the thing exists but has not been seen yet or it exists in a place that can not be visited. Unless all places in the universe have been visited and are being constantly observed, we can not be absolutely certain.
From this we can say that there are only two possible statements we can make about the existence of a thing:
The thing exists.
It is unknown if the thing exists or not.
It is not possible to prove that a thing "does not exist" without further qualifying criteria.
If a thing does NOT exist it can not leave any evidence of it's non-existence. Only things that DO exist can leave evidence. From this we can derive that conclusive proof can only come from the person that claims that a thing exists. It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence.
The existence of a thing can be conclusively proved by producing one single instance of the thing.
To put that another way: -
When the existence of a thing is denied, This can be proven wrong by producing one single instance of the thing said not to exist
The non-existence of a thing can never be conclusively proved because there is always the theoretical assumption that the thing exists but has not been seen yet or it exists in a place that can not be visited. Unless all places in the universe have been visited and are being constantly observed, we can not be absolutely certain.
From this we can say that there are only two possible statements we can make about the existence of a thing:
The thing exists.
It is unknown if the thing exists or not.
It is not possible to prove that a thing "does not exist" without further qualifying criteria.
If a thing does NOT exist it can not leave any evidence of it's non-existence. Only things that DO exist can leave evidence. From this we can derive that conclusive proof can only come from the person that claims that a thing exists. It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence.
Last edited:
Quigly: Ok, your big argument is that it is not a choice. It is a way of life right? It is a process as you say to become an atheist. Cause and effect. You say there is no choice to be made, but every cause has an effect. Every action has a reaction.
*************
M*W: Let me try to further explain this to you. A person doesn't wake up one morning and say, "hey, I think I'm an atheist, yeah, that's right, I'm an atheist!" It doesn't happen this way. Atheism doesn't come to us as a 'choice,' it comes to us as a revelation over time. For me, it took me some 20 years to fully accept that I was an atheist. How it started with ME was by questioning certain things in xianity that I could find no answers for through Catholic priests. I was told not to question, because that was showing doubt for my religion. That made me question all the more. I desperately wanted to prove myself wrong, because I really wanted to prove without a doubt that xianity was the truth. I even came to sciforums still believing in God! Even after that, it still was not a choice. After four years on sciforums, atheism became a revelation -- not a choice. My attaining atheism, I consider a gift not a choice.
*************
Quigly: Your living, though you claim is not a choice, is truelly a choice, even if the choice is to claim that christians are wrong and that atheism is right. This is a choice.
*************
M*W: I am living by choice, otherwise, I could simply take my own life. Again, I consider my life to be a gift, and I choose to make the best of that gift. That is a choice.
*************
Quigly: At the beginning of your process a choice was made that there is no god for you.
*************
M*W: No, you don't understand. At the beginning of the "process" any 'choice' I may have made was to remain a xian. The beginning of the "process" was not a choice to leave xianity but to question it and research it. Xianity WAS my 'choice,' and I had no intention of leaving it!
*************
Quigly: This may have become your way of life, but it took a choice as some part. Even the choice to deny christianity. You deny choice, but all of life is made of choice.
*************
M*W: I didn't consciously decide which road I would take. The road to xianity became blurred because none of its leaders could answer my questions yet condemned me for questioning. When I first started questioning, I was a xian, but xianity led me to the end of the road. I saw that I could go no further accepting what xianity said was the truth. It was obvious to me that the whole premise of xianity was based on the Jesus factor which ruled itself out when I came to the end of the xian road. It became clear to me that Jesus was not any savior. Still I pursued the truth hoping to find the answers to my doubts! I held onto the idea of a creator god. That worked for me until I had been on sciforums a couple of years. Still, I was not making any choice. There was no choice to be made! It was not an either or situation. Xianity failed to be the truth, and that was NOT my choice. That was a gift. Later, on sciforums, I came to realize that my 'choice' to believe that there was at least a God, and that we had a soul, faded as well. It was not my 'choice' to disbelieve in God, because that is NOT what I set out to do! But, there was more proof than not to rule out a creator god. That was not a 'choice' but a 'gift.' I didn't consciously make a 'choice' to become atheist. That was the farthest thing from my mind, but the truth was revealed to me, or I should say I became aware of the truth and realized quite recently, in fact, that there was no god, no jesus, no truth in xianity. Those WERE choices. Then it came to me that I was actually atheist, and I accepted that realization, and I don't have a reason to question anymore.
*************
Quigly: If you eat a ham sandwich today, you have made a choice. If you go 20 mph over the speed limit or shoot a small child or deny the possibility of the existance of God, you have made a choice. Is it that hard to understand? Just because you don't know and don't believe and don't think there is enough proof today to say that the possibility exists, doesn't negate the possibility. It may for you, but not necessarily in the big scheme of things.
*************
M*W: Sure, I make a choice to eat the ham sandwich, and I admit that. No problem, but when it comes to believing in god, jesus and xianity, it's not hard to understand. However, I DO KNOW and I DO BELIEVE there is enough PROOF everywhere one looks to see how futile it is to believe in these false concepts. This is definitely a choice I've made. The possibility DOES NOT EXIST for me anymore, to believe in fairy tales, and that's a wonderful enlightenment! I'm finally free of all that negative baggage you call salvation and the falsehoods of how to get it!
*************
Quigly: The universe is big and our world is small and you and I are both subject to limited knowledge. Thus for you or I to state that we know the end all would be absurdity.
*************
M*W: I know how big the world is, yet it seems rather small to me. The knowledge I have is only limited to what I want to know, not what I have found out. No one has proven what the end will be like -- not even my former religious leaders. They didn't know anything more than I did. They couldn't answer my questions, so they told me to quit asking. Well, I didn't listen to them. The absurdity is believing in lies, believing in something that isn't there and was never there.
*************
Quigly: Last thing for now, you said that for atheists, after you die, that is it, there isn't a possibility of an afterlife, ect. ect...
1. How do you know? 100% faultless proof please.
*************
M*W: No one has proven otherwise, and the bible lies. Can you prove 100% that there is an afterlife without the bible? No you can't.
*************
2. Is that really up to you after you die? Some people believe you will be reborn as another person or animal. Some people believe that eternal life is contingent on the memories in the minds of people you knew(your legacy), yet others believe that you will be a star in the sky looking down over the universe. If you happen to be subject to one of those, is it really up to you?
*************
M*W: Nothing will be up to me after I die. I will have had my time on Earth, and I appreciate the time I had. The only thing that will be left of me are the memories that my children and grandchildren have of me, and maybe my dogs, too. I would say I had some choice bringing some of those people into my life who might remember me, and I proudly accept that as MY choice. "Eternal life" to me is the distribution of my DNA into those people I just named, and my DNA will go on, hopefully, forever, or at least in the human race would be fine. I certainly don't hope to be resurrected. When it's my time to go, just leave me alone and let me go. I've lived a good life, I've seen more of the world than what most people ever dream to see, and I've done it all. I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to give the world four wonderful people who have given the world five wonderful people thus far. But now content that I don't hold onto some fantasy afterlife, because it couldn't be as good as this one has been. And, if I have a soul, it is mine and doesn't belong to any mythological dying demigod savior. I've made peace with myself, and now I'm tired and ready whenever that big day comes.
*************
M*W: Let me try to further explain this to you. A person doesn't wake up one morning and say, "hey, I think I'm an atheist, yeah, that's right, I'm an atheist!" It doesn't happen this way. Atheism doesn't come to us as a 'choice,' it comes to us as a revelation over time. For me, it took me some 20 years to fully accept that I was an atheist. How it started with ME was by questioning certain things in xianity that I could find no answers for through Catholic priests. I was told not to question, because that was showing doubt for my religion. That made me question all the more. I desperately wanted to prove myself wrong, because I really wanted to prove without a doubt that xianity was the truth. I even came to sciforums still believing in God! Even after that, it still was not a choice. After four years on sciforums, atheism became a revelation -- not a choice. My attaining atheism, I consider a gift not a choice.
*************
Quigly: Your living, though you claim is not a choice, is truelly a choice, even if the choice is to claim that christians are wrong and that atheism is right. This is a choice.
*************
M*W: I am living by choice, otherwise, I could simply take my own life. Again, I consider my life to be a gift, and I choose to make the best of that gift. That is a choice.
*************
Quigly: At the beginning of your process a choice was made that there is no god for you.
*************
M*W: No, you don't understand. At the beginning of the "process" any 'choice' I may have made was to remain a xian. The beginning of the "process" was not a choice to leave xianity but to question it and research it. Xianity WAS my 'choice,' and I had no intention of leaving it!
*************
Quigly: This may have become your way of life, but it took a choice as some part. Even the choice to deny christianity. You deny choice, but all of life is made of choice.
*************
M*W: I didn't consciously decide which road I would take. The road to xianity became blurred because none of its leaders could answer my questions yet condemned me for questioning. When I first started questioning, I was a xian, but xianity led me to the end of the road. I saw that I could go no further accepting what xianity said was the truth. It was obvious to me that the whole premise of xianity was based on the Jesus factor which ruled itself out when I came to the end of the xian road. It became clear to me that Jesus was not any savior. Still I pursued the truth hoping to find the answers to my doubts! I held onto the idea of a creator god. That worked for me until I had been on sciforums a couple of years. Still, I was not making any choice. There was no choice to be made! It was not an either or situation. Xianity failed to be the truth, and that was NOT my choice. That was a gift. Later, on sciforums, I came to realize that my 'choice' to believe that there was at least a God, and that we had a soul, faded as well. It was not my 'choice' to disbelieve in God, because that is NOT what I set out to do! But, there was more proof than not to rule out a creator god. That was not a 'choice' but a 'gift.' I didn't consciously make a 'choice' to become atheist. That was the farthest thing from my mind, but the truth was revealed to me, or I should say I became aware of the truth and realized quite recently, in fact, that there was no god, no jesus, no truth in xianity. Those WERE choices. Then it came to me that I was actually atheist, and I accepted that realization, and I don't have a reason to question anymore.
*************
Quigly: If you eat a ham sandwich today, you have made a choice. If you go 20 mph over the speed limit or shoot a small child or deny the possibility of the existance of God, you have made a choice. Is it that hard to understand? Just because you don't know and don't believe and don't think there is enough proof today to say that the possibility exists, doesn't negate the possibility. It may for you, but not necessarily in the big scheme of things.
*************
M*W: Sure, I make a choice to eat the ham sandwich, and I admit that. No problem, but when it comes to believing in god, jesus and xianity, it's not hard to understand. However, I DO KNOW and I DO BELIEVE there is enough PROOF everywhere one looks to see how futile it is to believe in these false concepts. This is definitely a choice I've made. The possibility DOES NOT EXIST for me anymore, to believe in fairy tales, and that's a wonderful enlightenment! I'm finally free of all that negative baggage you call salvation and the falsehoods of how to get it!
*************
Quigly: The universe is big and our world is small and you and I are both subject to limited knowledge. Thus for you or I to state that we know the end all would be absurdity.
*************
M*W: I know how big the world is, yet it seems rather small to me. The knowledge I have is only limited to what I want to know, not what I have found out. No one has proven what the end will be like -- not even my former religious leaders. They didn't know anything more than I did. They couldn't answer my questions, so they told me to quit asking. Well, I didn't listen to them. The absurdity is believing in lies, believing in something that isn't there and was never there.
*************
Quigly: Last thing for now, you said that for atheists, after you die, that is it, there isn't a possibility of an afterlife, ect. ect...
1. How do you know? 100% faultless proof please.
*************
M*W: No one has proven otherwise, and the bible lies. Can you prove 100% that there is an afterlife without the bible? No you can't.
*************
2. Is that really up to you after you die? Some people believe you will be reborn as another person or animal. Some people believe that eternal life is contingent on the memories in the minds of people you knew(your legacy), yet others believe that you will be a star in the sky looking down over the universe. If you happen to be subject to one of those, is it really up to you?
*************
M*W: Nothing will be up to me after I die. I will have had my time on Earth, and I appreciate the time I had. The only thing that will be left of me are the memories that my children and grandchildren have of me, and maybe my dogs, too. I would say I had some choice bringing some of those people into my life who might remember me, and I proudly accept that as MY choice. "Eternal life" to me is the distribution of my DNA into those people I just named, and my DNA will go on, hopefully, forever, or at least in the human race would be fine. I certainly don't hope to be resurrected. When it's my time to go, just leave me alone and let me go. I've lived a good life, I've seen more of the world than what most people ever dream to see, and I've done it all. I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to give the world four wonderful people who have given the world five wonderful people thus far. But now content that I don't hold onto some fantasy afterlife, because it couldn't be as good as this one has been. And, if I have a soul, it is mine and doesn't belong to any mythological dying demigod savior. I've made peace with myself, and now I'm tired and ready whenever that big day comes.
What would be considered evidence of existence or evidence of non-existence? The complexity of humans in itself is amazing enough. Many claim that it was a long track along an evolutionary chain, but even that would lean ones attention to the hierarchy of nature(the physical universe) itself as a creator, sustainer, balancer. Is this in itself evidence of some mysterious power, even if that is the universe itself. (does that make sense?)
Med. Woman.
I don't much trust the catholic church as far as I could throw it, but I guess that is irrelevant. It's unfortunate that your mentors couldn't point you in a better direction in search for truth. In my personal life, I have had conclusive proof of the existance of God (Conclusive to me) I am not brainwashed or miserable in my pursuits. Actually, I am living better and life is good for me. I don't follow catholic bs, but pursue to know God. It's amazing to me that we both have different stories/beliefs, but both seem happy enough.
one single instance of the thingQuigly said:
The non-existence of a thing can never be conclusively proved because there is always the theoretical assumption that the thing exists but has not been seen yet or it exists in a place that can not be visited. Unless all places in the universe have been visited and are being constantly observed, we can not be absolutely certain.Quiqly said:
no, to produce one instance of a thing, means reality not fantasy.Quiqly said:
the universe is a reality.Quiqly said:
why would that be amazing, I dont know if M*W would take that as an insult, but I do, how dare you, she one of our most respected members.Quiqly said:
it amazes me that you have enough braincells to walk. and that is an insult.
Quigly: Med. Woman.
I don't much trust the catholic church as far as I could throw it, but I guess that is irrelevant.
*************
M*W: Assuming you are a Protestant, you're beliefs were extracted from the same dogma as the Roman Catholic Church, so, no, it is relevant to xianity.
*************
Quigly: It's unfortunate that your mentors couldn't point you in a better direction in search for truth.
*************
M*W: Well, it was NOT their intention, but they DID point me in the direction of truth, even though they didn't know it!
*************
Quigly: In my personal life, I have had conclusive proof of the existance of God (Conclusive to me) I am not brainwashed or miserable in my pursuits. Actually, I am living better and life is good for me. I don't follow catholic bs, but pursue to know God. It's amazing to me that we both have different stories/beliefs, but both seem happy enough.
*************
M*W: That's because happiness can only be found from within. There is truly NOTHING outside of our own psyche that could make us sincerely happy. Oh, there are 'things' that give us false hope and temporarily satisy us like food, alcohol, drugs, sex, hobbies, and even religion, but NONE of these things bring TRUE happiness. No, not even faith in a religion. Do you know why? All the things I just mentioned, including religion, are a temporary fix to a serious longing, or addiction, we have that permeates our entire existence. Finding happiness in one's heart is what lasts forever. This is the eternal happiness that we share with our family and friends, and it goes on forever through them. To me, this is what true happiness is, but there was a time that I believed xianity was my only means of salvation. Thankfully, I learned that was wrong.
I don't much trust the catholic church as far as I could throw it, but I guess that is irrelevant.
*************
M*W: Assuming you are a Protestant, you're beliefs were extracted from the same dogma as the Roman Catholic Church, so, no, it is relevant to xianity.
*************
Quigly: It's unfortunate that your mentors couldn't point you in a better direction in search for truth.
*************
M*W: Well, it was NOT their intention, but they DID point me in the direction of truth, even though they didn't know it!
*************
Quigly: In my personal life, I have had conclusive proof of the existance of God (Conclusive to me) I am not brainwashed or miserable in my pursuits. Actually, I am living better and life is good for me. I don't follow catholic bs, but pursue to know God. It's amazing to me that we both have different stories/beliefs, but both seem happy enough.
*************
M*W: That's because happiness can only be found from within. There is truly NOTHING outside of our own psyche that could make us sincerely happy. Oh, there are 'things' that give us false hope and temporarily satisy us like food, alcohol, drugs, sex, hobbies, and even religion, but NONE of these things bring TRUE happiness. No, not even faith in a religion. Do you know why? All the things I just mentioned, including religion, are a temporary fix to a serious longing, or addiction, we have that permeates our entire existence. Finding happiness in one's heart is what lasts forever. This is the eternal happiness that we share with our family and friends, and it goes on forever through them. To me, this is what true happiness is, but there was a time that I believed xianity was my only means of salvation. Thankfully, I learned that was wrong.
the preacher said:
Amazes me because I am completely content in what I believe and she is completely content in what she believes. Maybe I should have led into more of why I was amazed and so my apologies for not giving more. I was talking to a friend of mine and we were discussing contentment and happiness. He was saying that personal belief/religion/lack of religion(whatever) had little to do to influence contentment and happiness. I thought it did as those that feel close to God are more at peace than those that live for the temporary relief. (addicts)(To note, As Med Woman does, I don't see religion as a temporary satisfaction.) It seems that even those such as medicine woman that don't have religion or god are just as content, which proves my friend correct, in that belief plays little part in overall contentment. Hope that helps explain.