Good without evil? Evil without Good?

[heart]

Yeah, I think good can exist without evil. Just like the ability to hear can exist without someone being deaf. One doesn't have to be deaf in order for others to hear. Which leads me to wonder why this biblical god would create evil to begin with. Why?

Would a loving parent (which is what the bible tries to have us equate "god" with) knowingly sit down poison in the middle of the living room, knowing there is a chance their child will get into it? What person wouldn't think the parent would need help if their only defense was, "but I told little Johnny it was poison and to not touch it. Why should I have to remove this poison from his sight?" What loving parent would doom their child to a place like hell, if they didn't follow that parent(s) way?

Most of all, why the f*ck are we blamed for something two people who lived long ago did? I sure the hell didn't do it. [sarcasm] Why don't we just throw all children in prison whose parent's f*cked up? [/sarcasm]

Oh, but, he's "god" he can do anything on the face of this earth or in heaven. He can kill, we aren't allowed to because we aren't him though. (brings back bad memories of my youth when I heard "you can't do it because you're not the parent") He can throw temper tantrums and kill some dude, just because he touched his precious ark. Yeah, I know, God told him not to touch it (*gasp* big sin), but to kill him over it? Further, the dude was only trying to catch the ark because it was falling. He should have let it fall and smash into the ground, then I'm sure "god" would have come up with another excuse to kill, just as always. *huge eyeroll- huge*

 

[The Goose]

The funny thing about the question asked is that it is exaclty what Mormons believe. They believe that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden of eden precisly so that adam and even would gain a knowledge of good and evil (that they would choose to have that knowledge is the reason behind not just giving it to them.) If they didn't have that knowledge, they would still be sitting around in the garden of eden, doing absutely nothing, knowing no evil and therefore knowing no good. After all, 2 Nephi 2:22 in the BoM states "And now, behold. if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they would have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they know no misery; doing no goo, for they know no sin." It is definitely necessary to have that sort of "reference point" that you spoke of

 

[The Goose]

And to the question, why did God even put evil in the garden if he loved us so much - so we could progress. It's kind of like this - Did your dad ever let you cross the street without holding your hand? I would hope so. Did he ever let you hang out with your friends without him breating down your neck? Once again, I would hope so. The point of putting the knowledge there is so that we could make our own choices and progress. Its like if your dad had 10 kids, or something. There's always the chance that if he doesn't hold each kid's hand when they cross the street, that one might go running out into the street and get hit by a car. There's also the chance that a kid might turn into a drug addicted prostitute if she wasn't cosnstatly being watched by her dad. But if you were living that life with all that control, there wouldn't be any pleasure. I'm sure you have gotten pleasure about making choices, whatever they may be, and your dad has certainly been pleased when you have made good choices on your own. He enjoys watching you progress on your own, with his guidance, but not force. The same is true of God. Yeah, some of his children will be lost to sin, and I don't doubt that He greives at every loss, but life would not have been much if He hadn't intorduced the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

 

[Joeman]

Do we know what pre-conditioning had been done in Adam and Eve's case, by their previous existence in Eden? No.

We know at least one - they were without the knowledge of good and evil. Read your damn book. They were in the complete blank state in terms of gullibility

It doesn't really matter -
The choice is incorrectly put as a choice between what is right and wrong, rationally made, by as Audible describes them, children.

Without the knowledge of good and evil, how do they know obeying God is good or bad?

The choice should be described as, obey God or don't. Understand that your conclusions will sometimes be incorrect and follow a higher moral dictum, or don't.

How do A&D know obey God is good or bad?

Trust God, or don't.

How do A&D know trust God is good or bad?

Aso, God didn't punish them for eating the apple, God warned them away from eating the apple. "Be happy little children, and never you mind that knowledge apple."

Without the knowledge of good and evil, how do A&D know following God's instruction is good or bad?

Of course there are many other complexities to the concept of original sin, which i can't pretend to explain.
How do some people see this as so incredibly simple?
By becoming ignore-ant.

Personal insult doesn't make your argument superior

 

[heart]

Goose,

Let's put it like this, you name one loving father or mother who would send their child to hell for eternity. I mean what the hell kind of progress is that? How to show off thy powers? (Considering you had the power) Could you ever doom your child to an everlasting punishment? I mean, talk about a huge f*cking grudge.

 

[cole grey]

We know at least one - they were without the knowledge of good and evil. Read your damn book. They were in the complete blank state in terms of gullibility

Great, but what does this have to do with what i said? nothing.
I already stated that the question asked about a rational choice made between good and evil is a mistake.
For example, following Neitzsche's line of thought regarding following the consequences of an action, how can Adam and Eve's action be seen as evil, even though it is the catalyst for seeding the human soul with the propensity for doing evil (supposedly) and all of the results of that? They didn't know. Their action was a simple-minded lack of obedience or trust, not a holocaust, or even a mass-murder. Maybe they had the knowledge of smart and dumb, after they grabbed the first cactus God had warned them about. Are we just assuming that everything there is to know about the situation is revealed in those few paragraphs?


JOE-Without the knowledge of good and evil, how do they know obeying God is good or bad?
see above.
JOE-How do A&D know obey God is good or bad?
see above.
JOE-"How do A&D know trust God is good or bad?"
see above.
JOE-"Without the knowledge of good and evil, how do A&D know following God's instruction is good or bad?"
see above.


JOE - "Personal insult doesn't make your argument superior"
My use of the word "ignore-ant" is actually a compliment. It implies that people with that quality have the intelligence to know better, and realize this isn't as simple a question as they pretend, and are choosing to ignore certain things so as to have an easily explainable (simple) conclusion.

Also, Heart - Your response to fundamentalist Christian ideology sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Yorda]

Well, if Adam and Eve didn't do anything WRONG, they don't deserve punishment. But in the bible they were punished. God in the bible is unjust.

We aren't being punished really. It's just a way of saying it. When people believe they are punished for their actions, they learn (from their mistakes)

fruit... consciousness... duality...

Yeah, I know, God told him not to touch it (*gasp* big sin), but to kill him over it?

Ever heard of the laws of nature... the Ark is like that... like the law of gravity... if you jump off a cliff, you die... "God" kills you... that's just the way nature works... the Ark was a dangerous thing for ordinary humans... only Moses could touch it, because he was one with "God" (his real self)...

 

[heart]

Ever heard of the laws of nature... the Ark is like that... like the law of gravity... if you jump off a cliff, you die... "God" kills you... that's just the way nature works... the Ark was a dangerous thing for ordinary humans...

The Bible paints a different picture, Yorda.
2 sam 6:7
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.

Seems pretty clear it was God's anger and God that killed him, all because of his "error".

 

[Yorda]

In this case, it doesn't really matter to me what the Bible says. The Bible is written in a special way so that the people 5000 years ago would have understood it. When we look at it 5000 years later, we can understand what "error" and "God's anger" means. The truth can be told in many ways, even with fairytales (I'm not saying that the Bible is)

 

[Quigly]

2 sam 6:7
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.

Seems pretty clear it was God's anger and God that killed him, all because of his "error".

It wasn't the act of touching a box. It was the fact that the box carried God's presence and anyone that touched his presence and had sin in him would die. In the old testament, it was natural death. Only the priests who were atoned could go into the Most holy place in the temple and even then they tied a rope around themselves in case sin was found in them ( they would die and have to be dragged out of the temple.)

 

[heart]

In this case, it doesn't really matter to me what the Bible says. The Bible is written in a special way so that the people 5000 years ago would have understood it. When we look at it 5000 years later, we can understand what "error" and "God's anger" means. The truth can be told in many ways, even with fairytales (I'm not saying that the Bible is)

I won't argue with you there. I can get meaning out of The Wizard of Oz and apply it to my life if I wanted as well.

*****

It wasn't the act of touching a box. It was the fact that the box carried God's presence and anyone that touched his presence and had sin in him would die.

lmao Kinda makes you wonder what "god" was thinking when he created people. If he wants to be approachable, you'd think being "god", he'd be able to tone down his presence. Why do you think he didn't? I mean after all Uzzah was only trying to help, otherwise, he wouldn't of tried to catch the Ark when it started falling. Again, what loving parent would kill his child just because he disobeyed?

All stories of the Ark aside, you cannot discount the scripture that says God was angry...God smote him BECAUSE of his (Uzzah's) error. Why do you think that scripture was put in there? Why not just say, Uzzah f*ucked up because he tried to help god (yes yes I"m aware he touched something God told him not to)? He went with his reaction and tried to catch this beloved Ark. It didn't say, because God's presence was so strong, (I am also aware of the "powers" of the Ark), that when Uzzah touched the Ark, he was killed instantly. It directly said God was ANGRY at Uzzah, and that God smote him for his ERROR (yeah, don't piss off god).

Only the priests who were atoned could go into the Most holy place in the temple and even then they tied a rope around themselves in case sin was found in them ( they would die and have to be dragged out of the temple.)

I've heard such stories. LMAO Come on though... Christians will continue to make excuses for the biblical God's brutality no matter what. My question again would be, why do you think God couldn't of toned his presence down?

 

[Quigly]

Maybe when he made sin/evil, he seperated himself from it and it was part of law that no evil could touch him and live.(No darkness can come in his presence without scattering..Light chases away the darkness) Maybe his own presence when it comes to sin/evil was that rock that was so big he couldn't lift..(from the can God make an object so big and heavy that he himself can't lift it)

I am not completely sure. The old testament was very much about war, death, and following the lineage of the Israelites. It was about Justice. Eye for an Eye Tooth for a Tooth, but the New Testament (A.D.) was about Grace and Mercy.

I am guessing that God was acting as he needed to act in the old testament so that the lineage that would bring you Jesus was preserved. It could be that if one war went differently that Jesus would have come later or before his appointed time.

 

[The Goose]

Goose,

Let's put it like this, you name one loving father or mother who would send their child to hell for eternity. I mean what the hell kind of progress is that? How to show off thy powers? (Considering you had the power) Could you ever doom your child to an everlasting punishment? I mean, talk about a huge f*cking grudge.

Let's put it like this, instead. Your father owns a company. He wants you to some day become a high powered figure in his company and perhaps work side by side with you. He sends you (and your brothers and sisters, we'll say) to school, et cetera, et cetera, but instead of doing your schooling, you decide to do drugs, have sex all the time, and basically do whatever you want. You completely do not learn what you need to in order to become a viable member of the company. Your brothers and sisters, however, do do their schooling, and they know what it takes to run a company. They get a spot, and you don't. You finnally realize the error of your ways, he lets you sweat for a while as punishmet, you return to your father. Would it be fair to the other children if he gives you the same position that they worked so hard to earn? No. He doesn't give you a high powered part in the company, but instead, he lets you be the janitor.

This is like what God is doing. He's saying that if you do what your supposed to, you can inherit the highest level of glory in heaven (like what the brothers and sisters in the story inherited in the company). However, if you are bad and just do what you want without any sort of consideration for what He wants from you, you won't be worthy to enter that level of glory. He will send you to hell for 1000 years (not eternity) to punish you for not doing what He asked (like the father making you sweat for a while) and then you will inheret the lowest kingdom of heaven. Since you have not fullfilled the requirements to become exalted in a higher glory, you will have to inherit a lower one (like becoming a janitor). This probably won't make God very happy, or in any way pleased that he can act on a long-standing "grudge," but it would not be fair or right to allow a person such as that to inherit the same kind of glory as people who actually did what was asked of them. He gave you time to progress, but you just didn't use it.

What kind of Father would God be if he didn't punish people for thier sins? It hurts fathers to have to spank thier children (or whatever) but it is certainly necessary.

 

[heart]

Maybe when he made sin/evil, he seperated himself from it and it was part of law that no evil could touch him and live.(No darkness can come in his presence without scattering..Light chases away the darkness) Maybe his own presence when it comes to sin/evil was that rock that was so big he couldn't lift..(from the can God make an object so big and heavy that he himself can't lift it)

Then maybe when he made sin/evil, he should have realized the harm/death that would come because of it. Maybe he shouldn't have created it then, huh?

I am not completely sure. The old testament was very much about war, death, and following the lineage of the Israelites. It was about Justice. Eye for an Eye Tooth for a Tooth, but the New Testament (A.D.) was about Grace and Mercy.

True, it was full of those things. Are you saying the biblical god changed his ways..turned over a new leaf called grace and mercy? Ha..tell that to Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10). That was a funny way of showing grace and mercy. Although, I know he didn't "change" as he is the god who changeth not, at least according to the bible. The same god of the nt is the same of the ot- you know the one that killed men, women, children, babies, and animals.

 

[heart]

Goose,

Let’s say that I don’t want to work for my father’s company, maybe I want to act, maybe I want to be a web designer, maybe I want to who knows??…I guess what I’m saying is, there are other choices out there, Goose.

I simply wouldn’t work for him. I don’t like how he conducts business. He kills men, women, children, babies, and animals. I just don’t believe in what he does. My heart leads me away from his business- toward other avenues. Poor ole dad though, he just takes it so personal, that he actually puts me on a hit list! You know- killing/sending to hell- his own daughter because she doesn’t want to work for him. In the real world, that is considered a crime, Goose.

Now in all honesty, I see where you are trying to go with this. God is going to teach us a lesson- lesson being you go against him- he’ll unconditionally love you to hell. Etc However, I choose to believe that lessons can be learned without violence. Violence used as a means to punish children, is nothing more than laziness mixed in with a whole lot of evil. Why not a non-violent approach to reach and teach? You asked what kind of father would God be if he didn't punish people for their sins. I’m asking what kind of father would harm their child all in order to so call “teach a lesson”? We are not simply talking about a spank on the butt here, Goose. Mercy and grace should not equal hell (no matter the length one stays there – be it 1000 years or eternity).

 

[The Goose]

Goose,

Let?s say that I don?t want to work for my father?s company, maybe I want to act, maybe I want to be a web designer, maybe I want to who knows???I guess what I?m saying is, there are other choices out there, Goose.

Well, in the big scheme of things, there are only two choices, two "companies," (if we still want to follow this metaphore) God's and Satan's. You may think that you are working for some third, unrelated company, you may even think that you are working for one of God's companies, but you're really not. And the thing is, God already knows that the Devil's "company" will go bankrupt and he will leave all of his "employees" completely lost without one cent to their names. God's trying to save you from that misery, but it will cost. You will have to work for it, just as you would have to work for a good position at a real company. There's nothing really distorted about that. After the Devil leaves all his followers and they have payed for their willful disregard of God's advice, then, when you realize that God's way was really the only way to go, and come crawling back to him, he will give you a spot, though not quite as good a spot as you could have gotten had you had the "seniority" of being with The Company for a longer time.

He kills men, women, children, babies, and animals. I just don?t believe in what he does.

Point A: What do you think would happen if He didn't kill men, women, children, babies, and animals? The earth would be completely full and nobody would be able to live. That's kind of an unconvincing argument, but there really is no other reason. And I'm not sure He sees killing animals a sin. They're lower animans, without feelings, logical thinking, &c.

Point B: When He kills people, they don't just die, and then that's the end of it. They continue to live on as spirits until the Second Coming when their bodies can be resurected. It's almost like a continuation of what was going on Earth. The people will still have the same emotions, the same wants and desires, and stuff, but they just won't have a body. It's not bad for the people killed.

Point C: People can learn a lot by having to cope with the death of a loved one. It is one of the most (potentially) life changing experiences anyone will ever have to go through. God needs to test His followers. It's all fine and dandy to say, "Yes. I will do what God wants me to do, as long as he keeps up with these blessing," but the minute something doesn't go right to say, "Well, now that my life is shot, I guess I'll go binge drinking, find myself a prostitute, and try to drown out my sorrows with dugs." Trials expose your true colours, which couldn't bee seen without them.

Point D: God doesn't kill all of them. Some are killed by people the Devil has tempeted into becomeing murderers. God allows this to accomplish Point C, and sometimes Point B.

You know- killing/sending to hell- his own daughter because she doesn?t want to work for him. In the real world, that is considered a crime, Goose.

He doesn't kill you. He punishes you for a bit for not following His instructions.

lessons can be learned without violence. Violence used as a means to punish children, is nothing more than laziness mixed in with a whole lot of evil. Why not a non-violent approach to reach and teach?

God doesn't use violence to punish people. (well, that's not quite true. Very frequently he used violence in the OT by telling the Isrealites to kill heathen nation, both as a punishment to them and to give the Isrealites a test and their promised land.) But any violence that you have suffered was as a punishment for your sins. It was a test, as spoken of earlier, that God allowed the Devil to do to you. And hell won't be violent. The "wailing and gnashing of teeth" one hears about so much is "because of thier own iniquity" or in others words because of an acute understanding of their sins. It's like when you realise you have hurt someone. It (hopefully) makes you sad, too. In hell, you will have a complete understanding of the hurtfull things you have ever done. That would definitely make me wail and gnash my teeth.

 

[heart]

Well, in the big scheme of things, there are only two choices, two "companies," (if we still want to follow this metaphore) God's and Satan's.

What about the many different religions which believe in god, yet aren't of the christian faith? What makes you certain you've got it right? With all due respect to others who are from a different faith, what is to say your biblical way is the way?

Also, what about the atheists? Maybe those who don't believe in a god(s)- really are correct, that there is none. See, the thing is Goose; you're going on something that you just can't prove. Not more so than anyone else. If you're saying I have no options other than the ones you believe in- that would be your opinion.

If you insist on putting me in a box, and say I can only select between the biblical god or Satan...hey, it's a no brainer, for me. I cannot serve a god who kills men, women, children, babies, and animals. I'm talking about the many many instances in which the biblical god ordered the death of men, women, children, babies, and animals. In those instances, many were innocent. It's nothing but brutal- and it's quite obvious he takes joy in delivering it. If you don't think it's evil to order children to be dashed into pieces before their parent's eyes, then I guess you've chosen your god well.

Point A: What do you think would happen if He didn't kill men, women, children, babies, and animals? The earth would be completely full and nobody would be able to live. That's kind of an unconvincing argument, but there really is no other reason. And I'm not sure He sees killing animals a sin. They're lower animans, without feelings, logical thinking, &c.

I was specifically talking about the instances where god ordered people to die.

Point B: When He kills people, they don't just die, and then that's the end of it. They continue to live on as spirits until the Second Coming when their bodies can be resurected. It's almost like a continuation of what was going on Earth. The people will still have the same emotions, the same wants and desires, and stuff, but they just won't have a body. It's not bad for the people killed.

Tell that to the mother's and father's who watched their children being dashed to pieces before their eyes. Regardless, it is bad to die and have to live in hell for eternity (I don't know where you're getting this 1000 years bit- I've only heard of hell being for eternity...are you saying god is going to "burn the hell out of others" then return them to heaven?)

Point C: People can learn a lot by having to cope with the death of a loved one. It is one of the most (potentially) life changing experiences anyone will ever have to go through.

I agree that people can learn from a loved one dying. Much with anything in life I suppose, but yes I see your point there.

God needs to test His followers. It's all fine and dandy to say, "Yes. I will do what God wants me to do, as long as he keeps up with these blessing," but the minute something doesn't go right to say, "Well, now that my life is shot, I guess I'll go binge drinking, find myself a prostitute, and try to drown out my sorrows with dugs." Trials expose your true colours, which couldn't bee seen without them.

Much like when he "tested" Job, huh? Sorry, but, that whole story sounded like god and satan were bored and decided to play a little game which involved a man and his family. Why does god have the need to test others in this way? So he could win his bet with Satan...so he could receive glory right? *eyeroll*

Point D: God doesn't kill all of them. Some are killed by people the Devil has tempeted into becomeing murderers. God allows this to accomplish Point C, and sometimes Point B.

Again, I was only speaking of the deaths the biblical god specifically ordered to be carried out or had directly done himself. I could be wrong, but I bet I can find more stories in the bible where god has killed than the evil one called Satan.

He doesn't kill you. He punishes you for a bit for not following His instructions.

Well, hell, Goose- this must be THE way to discipline our children. I mean, I don't know why other parents hadn't adopted this method before now. After all, the biblical god is THE example to follow, right? Let's just torture the hell out of kids for a portion of their life- for not working their ass off for us like they should.

God doesn't use violence to punish people. (well, that's not quite true. Very frequently he used violence in the OT by telling the Isrealites to kill heathen nation, both as a punishment to them and to give the Isrealites a test and their promised land.)

Uhh... I think you just refuted your own statement.

And hell won't be violent. The "wailing and gnashing of teeth" one hears about so much is "because of thier own iniquity" or in others words because of an acute understanding of their sins. It's like when you realise you have hurt someone. It (hopefully) makes you sad, too. In hell, you will have a complete understanding of the hurtfull things you have ever done. That would definitely make me wail and gnash my teeth.

Can you refer me to the scripture where it says hell won't be violent?
I mean what's the below scripture about?
rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[The Goose]

What about the many different religions which believe in god, yet aren't of the christian faith? What makes you certain you've got it right? With all due respect to others who are from a different faith, what is to say your biblical way is the way?

Also, what about the atheists? Maybe those who don't believe in a god(s)- really are correct, that there is none. See, the thing is Goose; you're going on something that you just can't prove. Not more so than anyone else. If you're saying I have no options other than the ones you believe in- that would be your opinion.

Well, I really can't prove that my way is the right way, but I'm pretty confident that in the end it certainly won't be the athiest who have it right. As for the people of different religions, if they are living their lives in as good manner as they know how, I'm sure God will reward them to some degree.

I'm talking about the many many instances in which the biblical god ordered the death of men, women, children, babies, and animals.

If you could refer me to the intances, I could try explain what I beleive about that for you. I can think of the sodom and gomorrah story, though, in which God killed two entire towns, except that he spared the one riteous man in the city.

Tell that to the mother's and father's who watched their children being dashed to pieces before their eyes. Regardless, it is bad to die and have to live in hell for eternity (I don't know where you're getting this 1000 years bit- I've only heard of hell being for eternity...are you saying god is going to "burn the hell out of others" then return them to heaven?)

For this to make a little more sense, let me clearify my beleifs on hell, with some quotes and stuff, so you can know a little bit about where I am coming from in my debates. After death, one's spirit does not go directly to "heaven" or "hell." There will have to be a state between death and resurection. If you have been good, it will go to a paradise. "the spirits of those qho are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise" Alma 40:12 and "the spirits of the wicked . . . shall be cast into outer darkness." Alma 40:13 which is called the spirit prison. (Isaiah 61:1 has reference to the opening of the prision to free the spirits, John 5:25 tells that the dead shall the hear the voice of the son, and 1 Peter 3:19 says that Jesus preached to the spirits, etc.) I think I may have made mention of this prision in an earlier post? If not, I will clearify more if want. Anyway, then comes the second coming of Jesus. At this time, all people will be resurected. The bad ones will be tossed into hell for his millenial reign (1000 years). Then, all will be resurected to heaven. The only ones who won't be resurected are those who willfully put on the name of the devil and willfully did his bidding, those spoken of in the second part of rev 14:11 when it says "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." This hell is only for those who worshiped satan, not those who were merely led astray by him, and will be relatively few people. This will be an eternal hell, but those are the only ones who will suffer it.

Much like when he "tested" Job, huh? Sorry, but, that whole story sounded like god and satan were bored and decided to play a little game which involved a man and his family. Why does god have the need to test others in this way? So he could win his bet with Satan...so he could receive glory right?

Well, I guess that's an opinion I will have to respect. I cna't really disprove that with anything.

Can you refer me to the scripture where it says hell won't be violent?

Well, I can't remember which concept of hell I was refering to. If it is the spirit prison I can say that it was never said to be a violent place in all the Bible, which I'm sure it would have been if it were violent. Using Isaiah24:22 as a point, all it says is "and they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Alma40:13 says the wailing and gnashing of teeth is "because of thier own iniquity" not because of something violent.

As for the hell that the devil and his minions will be sent to, this probably will be violent and torturous. I would not be able to find scripture that said it wouldn't be.

That may not have been the most detailed explanation, so if I need to clearify any of the points before you state your side, I will.

 

[heart]

Well, I really can't prove that my way is the right way, but I'm pretty confident that in the end it certainly won't be the athiest who have it right. As for the people of different religions, if they are living their lives in as good manner as they know how, I'm sure God will reward them to some degree

Well, Goose, I know some atheists who are great people. The kind that would take the shirt off their back to help someone, the kind that would welcome someone into their home if they were without. In no way shape or form could I account for all their actions- but, they seem to live their life for the good.

Now, why on earth would "god" not accept them in the best of living conditions, just as he would any other christian? Why send them to hell for however long? Are you telling me god isn't above human emotions? Meaning, that he'd let them control him in a manner that would force him to treat his children differently?

If he is a god of love and of understanding- why the heck would he send anyone to hell because they didn't believe in him or live according to a certain manner? We are human, Goose, and supposedly, "god" knows this. Are you telling me that he couldn't open up his arms and welcome all? Are you saying he doesn't have unconditional love? If this is the case, your god sounds much like the kids I went to grade school with. You know the type, "If you don't do this, then I won't be your friend. Or If you don't do this then you can't be in our club" etc You get the hint, I'm sure.

If you could refer me to the intances, I could try explain what I beleive about that for you. I can think of the sodom and gomorrah story, though, in which God killed two entire towns, except that he spared the one riteous man in the city.

To be honest with you, there are many, and I don't have the energy to list them all. I will give just a few below.

Isaiah 13
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children


Numbers 31:1-18
Murdered mother's and children

Psalms 137:8-9
dashing little ones against stones

The bad ones will be tossed into hell for his millenial reign (1000 years). Then, all will be resurected to heaven. The only ones who won't be resurected are those who willfully put on the name of the devil and willfully did his bidding, those spoken of in the second part of rev 14:11 when it says "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." This hell is only for those who worshiped satan, not those who were merely led astray by him, and will be relatively few people. This will be an eternal hell, but those are the only ones who will suffer it.

First, thank you for taking the time out to explain to me your views of hell and heaven. It did help to understand where you were at least coming from .

You say that god separates the good from the bad. So this scripture:

"So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:49-50).

I don't know about you, but I'm sure they use that term furnace of fire to mean that- it's gonna burn/hurt ...I think the last thing on their mind would be their sin, but rather hurting and burning...but, that's just me.

I'd also like to point out the parable Jesus told of The Rich Man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31. Please note the following verses especially:

The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Goose, to me, the rich man doesn't sound like he's without pain, he pretty much sounds desperate and hurting, again, that's just me.

 

[Quigly]

Well, Goose, I know some atheists who are great people. The kind that would take the shirt off their back to help someone, the kind that would welcome someone into their home if they were without. In no way shape or form could I account for all their actions- but, they seem to live their life for the good.

Now, why on earth would "god" not accept them in the best of living conditions, just as he would any other christian? Why send them to hell for however long? Are you telling me god isn't above human emotions? Meaning, that he'd let them control him in a manner that would force him to treat his children differently?

If he is a god of love and of understanding- why the heck would he send anyone to hell because they didn't believe in him or live according to a certain manner? We are human, Goose, and supposedly, "god" knows this. Are you telling me that he couldn't open up his arms and welcome all? Are you saying he doesn't have unconditional love? If this is the case, your god sounds much like the kids I went to grade school with. You know the type, "If you don't do this, then I won't be your friend. Or If you don't do this then you can't be in our club" etc You get the hint, I'm sure.

It seems to me that atheists want it both ways. They want to live how they want to live on earth, (Whether moral or not moral) without having to believe or follow a God they don't understand, but if it so happens that they die, they wouldn't want a God they refused to believe in to punish them because they were humans. It's called justification. You don't want to believe in God, yet if you die and there is a God, you still want to control what happens to your destiny. You want to believe that God must bow to your wishes of providing you an eternal life of happiness even though you refused to believe in something that was right under your nose the whole time.

As an atheist, tell me that if you died and discovered that there was a God, would you be alright with allowing God to do whatever he wants with your soul/body/mind? At that point, it's all in, no turning back. It is his decision.

If I found out today that God would allow atheists and christians and everyone alike into heaven, would I change the way I lived? No, I would continue to pursue a relationship with God and follow his will.