Good lies?

[MLS]

In what circumstances do you think a lie can be morally OK?

 

[kenworth]

person who's parents have just died - "was it painful"
doctor - "no it was a very peaceful end"
reality - internal bleeding and 4 hours of agonizing pain.

i would consider that ok.lots of cases,basically when it saves someone from unnecessary pain/worry.

 

[MLS]

A soldier dies in protracted agony. The mother is told that he died a hero and it was a quick and relatively painless death. Would that be an acceptable lie?

 

[kenworth]

thats harder,i wouldnt like to be the judge.i

 

[Baron Max]

I don't see why anyone has to lie? I mean, why not just NOT say anything? Wouldn't that be preferrable to lying to someone?

A lie is a purposeful attempt to deceive someone. How can deceiving someone be moral?

Telling the truth does NOT mean that you have to tell the ENTIRE truth ...just don't tell someone the part that you feel might hurt/harm them. Besides, ain't they gonna' learn about it sooner or later? ...and when they do, aren't they gonna' be a little pissed at you for lying to them? How does that help anyone?

Baron Max

 

[Nysse]

my mum od’d on heroin when i was twelve. and my step dad told me she was in a car crash while I was at school and that it was instant. i refuse to think any sort of lie is moral, everyone deserves to know the truth, even if it isn’t pretty, otherwise it is just undermining the person you are lying to, believing they are too weak or broken for the truth, and that should not be up to them to decide.

 

[one_raven]

Baron,
I consider a lie of omission a lie still.
You are still purposely attempting to deceive someone by not telling them the truth. You are simply attempting to justify that lie to yourself, the same way the Officer is justifying lying to the kids mom about his heroism.

When is it morally acceptable to lie?
Accoring to my morals...
When someone asks a personal question about you that you feel they have no right to know, and abstaining from answering is either not an option or will automatically lead them to a conclusion -correct or incorrect (for example "Did you have sex with that person?")
To protect a loved one (for example "No, officer, I haven't seen my brother in months.") when that lie can not reasonably hurt another. Though, I deplore it when people ask me to lie for them, and will usually refuse if asked.

That's about all I can think of right now.

 

[MLS]

So is a lie a morally neutral strategy and only the goal of the lie has a moral value?

 

[Baron Max]

Baron, I consider a lie of omission a lie still. You are still purposely attempting to deceive someone by not telling them the truth.

How can they be deceived by someone when they still know exactly the same thing that they knew BEFORE the person even arrived? One can't be "deceived" by a lack of knowledge!

I think you're considering that a person might deceive HIMSELF by making erroneous assumptions or conclusions, but that's surely not the fault of the other person.

When someone asks a personal question about you that you feel they have no right to know, and abstaining from answering is either not an option or will automatically lead them to a conclusion....

How is one "automatically led to a conclusion"? And more importantly, whose fault is it? And why is abstaining from answering a lie? That makes no sense ...does that mean that person who can't talk is always telling lies?

One thing that I think is important is that while social structure might "force" us to lie, that still does NOT make it moral to lie.

If to protect a loved one from unneccesary pain you tell it a lie, that's fine ...you're a nice guy according to current social standards, but it's still a lie and it's still immoral.

Baron Max

 

[cosmictraveler]

One does not have to give all the details about something. Just because you leave out something but het the message across is the best thing that can be done WITHOUT LYING at all.

Why not say that someone died, how it happened is not as important as to helping the grief stricken person who you are telling. You don't have to go into everything that goes on about anything just be honest and that should do.

 

[sniffy]

Would it be morally correct to lie to someone who was threatening your life?
Would it be morally correct to lie to someone who was about to die?

I consider choosing to abstain from telling the truth (ie not saying anything) not the same as telling a lie, although, famously, Sir Thomas More was executed because he refused to tell a lie.

 

[Baron Max]

Would it be morally correct to lie to someone who was threatening your life?

Well, if you wanted to live more than you wanted to be moral, then lie! But, please, regardless of the circumstances, lying is immoral. There's lots of things that we do, even forced to do, that's immoral, but we still do them ....that does NOT change the morality of the act.

...although, famously, Sir Thomas More was executed because he refused to tell a lie.

He held his morality in high regard ..higher than his life. But it didn't really change anything, did it?

Baron Max

 

[MLS]

Originally Posted by Baron Max
lying is immoral

What specifically makes it immoral?

 

[jhuang]

Hey everybody, I'm new here. Anyway, to answer this question:

You have to look at the big picture. If you get hung up on the little things like "Oh no, I can't tell a lie because dishonestly is NEVER okay," it is to forget the purpose of morals.

I'm not saying that I think it is absolutely okay to lie. But there is a difference between a "white" lie and "deception." Comforting your grief-stricken spouse by saying that he or she is not to blame for losing the dog when he/she left the gate open is a white lie and is permissable. On the other hand, cheating on your spouse is deception and is morally wrong.

Focusing on the trivial details in life is a waste of time. Telling someone the truth when you know it could potentially deeply hurt them is selfish if you're doing it just for the satisifaction of knowing that you acted "morally."

 

[Baron Max]

Comforting your grief-stricken spouse by saying that he or she is not to blame for losing the dog when he/she left the gate open is a white lie and is permissable. On the other hand, cheating on your spouse is deception and is morally wrong.

So what gives you the "right" to make those judgements of harm or not? I'd also ask how anyone can logically determine when one lie is "big" and another is "little"? And worse, you're giving the liar the right to choose??? So is it okay for our elected officials to lie to us whenever they think that they should? ....to protect us? You're sure that you want that?

I'd also like to say how any of you would feel being lied to ...about most anything except something silly like Santa Claus! And how 'bout all those politicians that none of us like ....is it okay for THEM to determine when and how to lie to us?? Surely you don't believe that!

Lying is willfully attempting to deceive someone ....how can that be moral?

And please don't misunderstand ....I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't lie at times, but doing so is still immoral.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

What specifically makes it immoral?

Society ...or if you prefer, human tribes, groups, hunting parties, etc.

And as far as I know or can find out, no society that has ever existed would condone lying to other members of that society. ...perhaps lying to an enemy, but never to a member of that society.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

I'm sure that lying, over the long centuries, has altered.

How so? Please explain.

People today are more likely to lie about status, self-confidence, personality, and all that crap.

What we lie ABOUT is pretty irrelevant, don't you think? It's still a lie.

Or are you one of those people who thinks it's okay for our politicians to lie whenever they want about whatever they want? ...and you agree with that idea?

Baron Max

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Would it be morally correct to lie to someone who was threatening your life?

Finally somebody hit it.

Of course it's okay to lie in self defense. "I'm a black belt in karate, don't mess with me." "My dad is a cop and he'll have your dad arrested for something if you hit me." "No, mom, the guy I'm dating is not a different color from our family." "No, officer, I wasn't smoking that joint, I just found it on the ground and was going to throw it away." "You can't draft me, I've got asthma."

Whenever someone has authority or superior strength and is using it in opposition to your own best interest, of course it's okay to lie.

 

[one_raven]

One can't be "deceived" by a lack of knowledge!

I obviously disagree.
Someone can very well be decieved by a lack of knowledge.
As a simple (perhaps extreme) example, if you do not tell your wife that you slept with the baby sitter, have you deceived her?

I think you're considering that a person might deceive HIMSELF by making erroneous assumptions or conclusions, but that's surely not the fault of the other person.
How is one "automatically led to a conclusion"? And more importantly, whose fault is it?

True, and a good point.
It changes nothing however, in practice.
If Bob asks me if I had sex with Jennifer, and I know Bob well enough, I will know what he will assume if I refuse to answer.
Theory and practice are OFTEN two different things, especially when applied to interpersonal relationships.

And why is abstaining from answering a lie? That makes no sense ...does that mean that person who can't talk is always telling lies?

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say that abstaining from answering is a lie.

One thing that I think is important is that while social structure might "force" us to lie, that still does NOT make it moral to lie.

I completely disagree.
Do you have a book of moral rules you go by? What page is that on?

To paraphrase Ayn Rand, "To live a life by anyone's morals but your own is to live an immoral life."
The point of morals is to encourage fairness, justice and socially permissable behavior in an effort to reduce the amount of suffering inflicted upon people.
Thinking it is a solid steadfast set of unbreakable, unbendable rules to be followed religiously defeats the whole purpose.

If to protect a loved one from unneccesary pain you tell it a lie, that's fine ...you're a nice guy according to current social standards, but it's still a lie and it's still immoral.

What are common community morals based on if NOT current social standards?
Morality is something that evolves with society and reflects its standards, priorities and beliefs.

 

[Baron Max]

Finally somebody hit it. Of course it's okay to lie in self defense.

Sure ...but it's still immoral!

Whenever someone has authority or superior strength and is using it in opposition to your own best interest, of course it's okay to lie.

Then you think it's perfectly okay for our politicians to lie to us whenever the want to? And you agree with that? ...and don't think that it's immoral?

Baron Max