(Quick reiteration before I start – I’m arguing assuming that the Bible is true because I’m talking about the consequences of it being
I'm argueing the point that, true or not (ESPECIALLY if not), the bible is a terrible thing that is responsible for most of the world's troubles.
Well – pride is maybe a bit of a hazy one. The word can mean a lot of things, but if a man has such a view of himself that he regards himself as being superior and more important to others, then that’s a sin.
Yes, but WHY does God say it's a sin? If one has tact and doesn't make an issue of how he feels, who is being hurt? God? I wonder.
And anger isn’t always a sin – but unwarranted anger, or anger which controls a person is sinful.
Controlling anger is bad news no matter how you look at it, but consider...
Jeremiah 21:5 "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."
Isaiah 34:2 "For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies."
Micah 5:15 "And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."
Sounds like God needs to take an anger-management course. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical that God can experience controlling anger and destroy what he pleases while experiencing that anger (he at least has the decency to feel bad after one particularly nasty act)? God can't very well destroy himself, or send himself to hell. Maybe he's ashamed of his inadequacies and made Creation to kick around when he's feeling down.
What d’you think the world would be like if no one experienced any of these 7 things. It would be pretty different. Would it be a better place, or a worse place?
The very thought frightens me. Just... ugh. It would be terribly boring, to think of the LEAST awful thing. We would be machines, going through the motions of eating, sleeping, shitting and making babies without enjoying any of it. Don't be so naive as to believe that doing away with all the bad would result in us feeling only good.
Emotion is about duality; there's good and bad to be had. Have you ever loved someone? In loving someone you have the capacity to hate the bitterest hate there is. But without that horrible feeling of hate... love would be impossible.
How could we feel happiness? Without negative emotion, you couldn't very well tell the difference between feeling happy and feeling unhappy... so how could you know you were happy? Humour would be a foreign concept. Have you watched a good comedy recently? Think about just WHAT you laugh at. People being in uncomfortable situations, or being put down or physically injured. Why do you laugh at that? Because deep down, you feel very happy that it isn't YOUR girlfriend that walked in while another girl threw herself at you, or relieved that YOU haven't been hit by a bus recently. Do you see how that works? THERE WOULD BE NO LAUGHTER.
If there was no sloth, we would still be running around chasing herds of game in loinclothes and spears. Why do you think technology came about? Inherent human laziness. When confronted with something that needs doing, even while doing it we'll think "now is there some way to do this while doing less work?" There would have been no agriculture, because we'd have been content running ourselves crazy going after game to feed ourselves; we wouldn't have had the NOTION of doing it more easily, IE growing grain and penning animals for food rather than chasing them down. An awful lot of manual and mental labour is now down by machines, invented
so that humans wouldn't have to work so hard. See how that works? The computer you're using to post to this forum wouldn't have been invented, the house you're sitting in wouldn't have been built (a cave would have been good enough to keep you dry when it rains), etc etc ad nauseum all the way back to before the Stone Age. Laziness is the founder of civilisation; better known as 'necessity is the mother of invention.'
In fact, without sin there would be no human race... how would we procreate? Sex is an awful lot of work (if you've had it you'll know what I mean... if not, then take my word for it: it's EXHAUSTING), and if it didn't feel so damned good no one would bother. There'd have been no more people after Adam and Eve died (assuming you are a creationist), or if we were to lose all sense of lust tomorrow we'd die off after the youngest humans today grew old and died, because that'd be the end of sex (and, therefore, procreation).
To sum up...
No Pride? No friendship.
No Envy? No contentedness.
No Guttony? No satisfaction.
No Lust? No procreation OR ambition.
No Anger? No joy.
No Greed? No generosity.
No Sloth? No civilisation.
Let me think... no love, no laughter, no happiness, no computer, and no sex. Basically (save the computer), I'd lose all that made me human, and a UNIQUE human at that. I'd be dead in all ways except the most basic biological functions. I'd rather be dead than live that way.
So I don’t think I like sin very much. In my view, if only because of its consequences, it is a hateful thing. It brings dissatisfaction, suffering, pain, sadness and all kinds of problems.
The consequences are far outweighed by the benefits. Imagine being unconscious, with your senses and motor functions on. That's your dream world. Allow me to draw an analogy.
If your government decided to stop dicking around and make your country a brutal dictatorship, imposing martial law and the like, would you approve? There'd be no more crime (criminals summarily executed), no more unemployment (the poor sent to labour camps) and there'd spiffy star-and-stripe armbands for everybody. In short, no 'decent', law-abiding folk would be hurt, only criminals and rebel traitors. Would this be a good thing? Sure you wouldn't be able to go out after 9 PM, but you wouldn't have to worry about being mugged. Is the loss of all freedom of speech, movement and expression worth a little more safety?
In fact, I know that sin is wrong. Is that just because my parents told me being selfish and dishonest isn’t good? Or that killing people is something I shouldn’t do. No, I know that I shouldn’t harm other people. Why shouldn’t I? Well, cos I shouldn’t do bad things. Why? Cos they’re bad. Maybe I don’t have the same morality as you, and I was brought up to think hurting people is good. Well its still bad. Why? Well it just is bad, and we know its bad.
So for me – I don’t really have too much of a problem with God hating sin. If it is by definition and by its nature a bad and wrong thing, with horrible consequences – then I can understand why He does hate it. I hate it as well.
You believe 'sin' is wrong because your parents and the bible told you so. Morals aren't universal. The ancient Greeks and Romans thought slavery was perfectly normal, the Aztecs thought it was perfectly normal to tear someone's beating heart out of their chest, and Christians thought nothing of burning red-haired women alive because the bible told them to kill witches. If a child were raised to be a cold-hearted murderer, then no amount of therapy would help that person realise murder is wrong because to them it'd be no more spectacular than taking a dump. If a child in the ghetto has to steal to survive, that child soon learns that stealing is a necessary part of survival and will live that kind of life.
Some of your 'sins' are in fact bad, like killing and stealing, but the rest are simply absurd and purely arbitrary. Naturally, too much of anything, even something good, is bad but people should be taught to draw the line at a reasonable point rather than simply "No, you can't do that 'cause God says so." Anything else is repressive and unecessary.
God is something that no humans are – He is self existent. We rely on the breath and the health that God gives us to survive. If God ended my life now then I’d have no choice – I would die. But God is not reliant on anything – He is self existent.
God has all power – He can do whatever He chooses, except deny His nature. God is in a ununderstandable amazing relationship of love – between God the Father and God the Son.
Allow me to simplify what you said: Might makes Right. God is all-powerful, so he can do what he bloody well pleases, no matter how evil it is. I'm surprised, bandit. You never struck me as the Machiavellian type.
Those who happily go against God and set them selves up against Him, unrepentant all their lives – God will sit in heaven and laugh at them.
Why does God laugh at them? Because they're fucked when they die? He sounds like an arrogant asshole who gets off on being all-powerful.
So the time comes for my judgement before God. I imagine it going something like this...
"Hey man, long time no see.
"Hey God. Guess you do exist. Asshole."
"Whoa, easy on the 'tude there little buddy."
"Die."
"*chuckles* Let's see... well, you're guilty of everything that I say is wrong."
"Blow me."
"Temper temper... see, here's the deal. I'm all-powerful. You're not, so that means you're MY bitch. If I say you were wrong to have sex with all those girls, then you were WRONG, man. Hell, if I say it's wrong to like Doritos then you better not like Doritos. Damn it's good to be me."
"Go murder some helpless babies; don't you have some brimstone to rain?"
"*shakes head* You just don't get it, do you? I'm the one with the supreme power here, so if you don't like it that's just too bad. Off to hell with you."
To me that is one of the most ludicrous things ever.
The fact that you can believe in such an evil, arrogant and depraved entity as your God and then try to justify what he does with a straight face is ludicrous to me.
If we are going to make judgments about what the Bible says God does, then we need to look at what the Bible says about God’s nature. You can’t take one without the other. The Bible says God is infinitely merciful and great and is WORTHY of all the praise and love I could ever give Him. If you are going to make conclusions about what the Bible says God DOES, and use them to disagree with what the Bible says about who God IS – well that is not a valid thing to do. You must have gone wrong somewhere.
How is that not a valid thing? Because it challenges your nicely-ordered world-view? Don't try to monkey-wrench my arguement with false logic. The bible is our only source of information about God and what he's been up to. It says he is great and wonderful and loving, and yet describes (almost gleefully) how many people he and his followers have killed. I dare you to deny it.
John 3 16
If God sent His only son, who He loved with an amazing love, to die – and if God the son was willing to endure a horrible death and face the wrath of God for sin – all so that I should not perish but have everlasting life. And all so that everlasting life could be offered to everyone and that whoever believed could be saved. And all out of love….
Then God is not a God who deceives and lies. He’s a God who loves with incomprehendable love and must be true in everything He says. And therefore is infinitely merciful and great and is WORTHY of all the praise and love I could ever give Him.
Not like Hitler.
That doesn't change a single thing. One act of great love and sacrifice does not undo or make right a hundred evil and arbitrary acts. The fact that you can acknowledge all the evil God has done and STILL argue that he's filled with love for us boggles my mind. A drunken abusive father who buys his kid a sled for Christmas isn't a good father because of that one act; he's beat the kid countless times before and will beat him again.
