God

Well, it does matter because it's a sin. I base it on the following:
1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

The mercy Paul is referring to is forgiveness. It has enabled him to replace the vehemence with which he persecuted Christians with love. (1 Tim.1:5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.)

This was his testimony:
1Tim1:15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

If your conscience can remain clean while cursing God, you truly do not know Him (that is: ignorance). But it will start nagging you, because if you can do other things that are right, why not this one...

Rom 2:15...since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

i.e. the day you start getting to know God.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Only something pure can wash something impure, otherwise it will stay impure. Jesus was pure, and washed (baptized) us with purity. Your first step is listening to your conscience. Your second step will be to realize that that is not enough. Even if you do not know love (I'm not saying you don't), I'm sure you'll agree that if it exists it should be pure.

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Clear your conscience of this one thing, and you will be amazed of what will follow naturally. Trust me on this.
 
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Originally posted by Jenyar
Well, it does matter because it's a sin. I base it on the following:
1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

The mercy Paul is referring to is forgiveness. It has enabled him to replace the vehemence with which he persecuted Christians with love. (1 Tim.1:5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.)
Click to expand...

And still we have you doing the Dance of the Cornered Fundie; allow me to reiterate.

Leviticus 5:17 "And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; THOUGH HIS WIST IT NOT (emphasis mine), yet is he GUILTY, and shall bear his iniquity."

Now you would say "Yes, but Paul was forgiven because he repented!" This is where I remind you that blasphemy is an UNFORGIVABLE SIN.

Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
Mark 3:30 "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Ahh, so it becomes clear. Jesus' feelings were hurt when people said his spirit was unclean, so he made it a grave sin indeed to mock it. You will probably argue that this is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit, not God, but I don't see any difference. Blasphamy is blasphamy and what difference does it make WHERE it's directed? It's all the same religion.

This was his testimony:
1Tim1:15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

If your conscience can remain clean while cursing God, you truly do not know Him (that is: ignorance). But it will start nagging you, because if you can do other things that are right, why not this one...
Click to expand...

Jesus actually isn't all patient and forgiving.

Matthew 10:14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gommorha in the day of judgement, than for that city."

So the fate of any cities that either ignore or spurn his rabble-rousers will make the destruction of Sodom and Gommorha look like a picnic? Oh yes all forgiving and all patient indeed.

John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou aret made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

This is after healing a cripple. What he's saying is that the man's disability was a punishment from God for sinning, and that he'd better not do it again or else. Nice guy, eh?

And as for my conscience remaining clean while cursing God? I wasn't indoctrinated from birth about how God is watching and will kick my ass if I don't believe in him, so I merrily don't believe that there is a God without fear of consequence. It's quite refreshing, I suggest you try it someday. And your scare tactics are useless against me... "It will start nagging at me?" I'm sorry but the power of suggestion is something I've long since grown stronger than. Again that requires an indoctrinated fear of God... that's why there are so many 'born-again' Christians, out of manufactured guilt that they've never been able to fully deal with.

Rom 2:15...since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

i.e. the day you start getting to know God.
Click to expand...

Here's the whole aside, in context.
Romans 2:11: "For there is no respect of persons with God.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 When shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another)
2:16 In the day when god shall judge the secrets of man by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

This refers to people who live righteous lives, even if they don't necessarily follow the 'law', saying that "... but the doers of the law shall be justified." We are judged by our actions, not by whether we actually know the 'law' or not. Funny, then how later in Romans...

Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

A DIRECT CONTRADICTION! We're judged by faith alone, not our actual deeds. :rolleyes: So which is it? Actions or faith?

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Only something pure can wash something impure, otherwise it will stay impure. Jesus was pure, and washed (baptized) us with purity. Your first step is listening to your conscience. Your second step will be to realize that that is not enough. Even if you do not know love (I'm not saying you don't), I'm sure you'll agree that if it exists it should be pure.
Click to expand...

The point of this arguement? That Jesus was pure? That his love is pure? Interesting, given his opinion on people who wouldn't listen to him (see above arguements). Sounds like the actions of a thin-skinned bully to me; I'm not seeing much pure love when he threatens to destroy cities for turning out his followers.

As for the conscience thing? Speak for yourself. I wasn't brought up needing the security blanket of absolute authority hanging over my head, I'm actually quite secure in my own moral CHOICES thank you very much; I haven't been programmed with insecurities about myself and my actions from day one.

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Clear your conscience of this one thing, and you will be amazed of what will follow naturally. Trust me on this. [/B]
Click to expand...

LMAO!!! You sorry little fundie... all things are pure? "Corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure."? Always in terms of black and white.

You know what other cult uses this shtick to sucker in people? The scientologists. What they do is give you a 'psychological exam' and then tell you that you're unstable and prone to violence and irrationality and that only scientology can help you become 'sane'. Think I'm out on a limb here?

Consider. The bible tells us that we are wicked, corrupt, evil, misguided ad nauseum ad infitum and that only belief in God (and later in Jesus as well) will allow us to be 'saved' from our own wickedness.

The tactic is identical. Attack people where they feel most vulnerable (either sanity or in moral strength) and then tell them "there there, Jesus/Dianetics can help you."

Ah yes, and what would I consider a 'real' Christian? One who doesn't take the bible willy-nilly and actually believes and practises what is in it.

P.S. to Xev
You sound like someone I should get to know better :D
 
ThatJerk:

There is no need to be derisive.

Jenyar is one of the most rational and reasonable representatives of Christianity we have here.
Disagreement is one thing, name calling is another. Otherwise you're no better than muscleman here.

~Raithere
 
You may have noticed that I refrained from directly cursing or insulting Jenyar. I could have said something like "You stupid cock-sucking retard of a Christian motherfucker" but that's both rude and unnecessary. I may come on strong, but I certainly won't be the one to turn this into an outright flame-war.

I'll be derisive if I please when pointing out sheer idiocy. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that Jenyar can debate calmly (though rationality has nothing to do with the Christian position), but it's about time that atheists stood up for what they believe and actually told people they're imagining things rather than being *puke* P.C. and allowing blatant illogic to go unpunished. Yes, I said unpunished. Sue me.

Besides, my name should be self-explanatory. Want kindness and understanding and happy feelings? Don't look to me for it. :) In fact I'll be even more derisive, just for you.

Dance fundie, dance! Or...

*translated from the original Japanese*
100% Clisshen No. 7 1/2 bukkake dance fun!
 
Jenyar:

Only something pure can wash something impure, otherwise it will stay impure. Jesus was pure, and washed (baptized) us with purity. Your first step is listening to your conscience. Your second step will be to realize that that is not enough. Even if you do not know love (I'm not saying you don't), I'm sure you'll agree that if it exists it should be pure.
Click to expand...

Pure? As in undefiled by an indifferent world of sheep-people?

Then I agree. If you mean pure as in "free from other emotions", I disagree.

But I am not defiled. I am not degraded and I am not defiled and I am not impure. I am not a miserable sinner and I am not a pathetic slave.

I say, counter to Acton, that "power only corrupts the corrupted".

Well, only the impure are defiled. Only the subservient at heart are slaves.

You have countered that to obey the laws of my country makes me a slave of forces beyond my control. Bullshit. There is every difference between submission and slavery.

"Despite my chains, I have never adopted the heart of a slave"
--Comte Donatain Alphonse Francois de Sade (yet again :) )

ThatJerk:
I'll be derisive if I please when pointing out sheer idiocy. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that Jenyar can debate calmly (though rationality has nothing to do with the Christian position), but it's about time that atheists stood up for what they believe and actually told people they're imagining things rather than being *puke* P.C. and allowing blatant illogic to go unpunished. Yes, I said unpunished. Sue me.
Click to expand...

You sound like someone I would love to get to know better.

And I agree 100%- DANCE, FUNDIE, DANCE!
 
I found a new favorite:

ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE
(1) Doesn't it just make more sense that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good deity created the world out of nothingness, from magic, essentially, and then punished us for eating a piece of fruit, and then incarnated himself in human flesh and came down to shed his own blood so he could break his own rules, and then went through hell on a temporary basis and then went back into the sky and promised to come back and take everyone who believed in him to this heaven no one has ever seen?
(2) Well, doesn't it?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Time to go to bed I think, before I post anymore useless stuff :p
 
I also found another favorite.

ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE TO ATHEIST.

1.) Doesnt it make sense that atom mysteriously moved around by itself then CHING CHING! cytoplasm appeared, then it waited 1 million yrs then CHING CHING! another part appeared called "nucleus" then atoms runs around again in the pond then CHING CHING! then another million years CHING CHING! ribosome appeared, each waited millions of yrs because mr. earthquake couldnt design the right shape of ribosome to fit the cell membrane which has been waiting already for 1 million yrs, then mr. earthquake did its job again and gathered atoms together then CHING CHING! it became mitochondria magicly and each waited 1 million years. THEN later on thousands of the cell's parts appeared at once then it mysteriously came to life!! AND WHAT DO U KNOW? They happen to mysteriously have DNA!! WOW!

Then those little cells like runs around fast like speedy gonzales and bumps around over and over, until it became heart, liver, brain, plus the wind and hurricane keeps blowing their way that it sculps the form until all kinds of atoms were glued together and was magicly shaped into a fin, gills, until CHING CHING! it became a fish!!! then that fish became dinosaurs! CHING CHING AGAIN! Then that dinosaur ate grapes(which also magicly appeared) but the dinosaur guy was mean to one grape and spit it out, then the grape thought to itself "One of these days, i will bcome big and will kick your butt", SURELY millions of earthquake, tornado and lightning together, that same grape turned into a raisin, then into dinasaur! then that dinosaur remembered the bad thing that happened to him when he was a grape, so he kicked all the dinosaurs butt, and thats how they got instinct.

Therefore there is no God, and nature is pure chance.
 
Argument from an insulting babble of bad spelling and punctuation:

GOD dozent exist becaz I sad so! u theists SUCK MONKEY BALLS!! HAHAHA! IA RYLEH! PH'NGLUI RY'LEH CTHULHU WGAH'NAGL FHTAGN! cells are dna and darwin waz rite! HAHAHA! u are decived and god iz ded u morons! the bubbling ooze! the colour out of space! YOUR GOD IS DEAD AND NO-ONE CARES IF THERE'S A HELL I'LL SEE YOU THERE ooooh it burns, it burns! big bang happend becuz it went poof and u are stupid! humanz evolved from aps and u did two SALAD IS POWER AND XEV IS YOUR GOD YOU MINIONS SHOULD SEND ALL YOR MUNNY TO HER CUZ SHE DESERVES IT u stupid ugly people who are just children and stuff because the owl and the pussycat went to sea on a beautiful pea green boat! microsoft blows and so does u theists who say god exists becuz he dozent I LIKE SUSHI AND CHILEAN SEA BASS IS REALLY FUCKING DELICIOUS and everybody knowz this four score and seven years ago our forefather founded a new nation so god is dead and u are all children! lol! lol! lol! U SUCK ALL OF U!

Ergo, there is no God. :p
 
First person to have their brains melt and dribble out their ears wins, I think.

Obviously, muscleman's won a lot of these.
 
the winner, it seems to me, is the one who choses not to participate.
 
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i forgot i dont think you guys understood me, i didnt put scientific words there..let me rephrase what i just typed.

bio-suddaxerator mutated the atom sub-accelerator compounds. Then the bio-atomic neutrons excelled the gravitational fusion, and energy was released. During this phase, quantum physicist then externally gathered such elemental compounds, that each micro-atomic monoxides were sarravelented to fit its ions and sub-atomic fusion. AND THATS HOW LIFE FORM EXIST, JUST DONT ASK FOR DEMONSTRATION AND PROOOF, BECAUSE THIS CANNOT BE PROVEN, THEREFORE THERE IS NO GOD.

You guys understand now?
 
Muscleman - remember you're debating with realists about reality. You can't substitute reality with fiction and expect anybody to believe it. Christians don't need to substitute faith for reality or vice versa - they aren't mutually exclusive, as some would suggest. That is all I'm trying to show in this forum.

God is not "up there" and we "down here". In some ways everything relates to everything else.
 
"bio-suddaxerator mutated the atom sub-accelerator compounds. Then the bio-atomic neutrons excelled the gravitational fusion, and energy was released. During this phase, quantum physicist then externally gathered such elemental compounds, that each micro-atomic monoxides were sarravelented to fit its ions and sub-atomic fusion. AND THATS HOW LIFE FORM EXIST, JUST DONT ASK FOR DEMONSTRATION AND PROOOF, BECAUSE THIS CANNOT BE PROVEN, THEREFORE THERE IS NO GOD. "

Amazing MM, you once again have managed to make a post that makes absutely no sense. Your lack of knowledge of science is astounding, considering you claim to be able to disprove it.

This is your entire premise for believing in God:

ARGUMENT FROM CREATION
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable
(3) Therefore, God exists.

And for that I pity you. Now, time for an ignore.
 
Originally posted by Xelios


ARGUMENT FROM CREATION
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable
(3) Therefore, God exists.

And for that I pity you. Now, time for an ignore. [/B]
Click to expand...

O My God, I dont think Xelios can read, this guys brain is on a shut down mode (Know the story of Ted Kazynski the unibomber). AGAIN XELIOS I AM NOT AGAINST EVOLUTION, GOT THAT? EVOLUTION IS LIKELY TRUE BECAUSE IT IS EVIDENT, HOWEVER EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EXISTENCE OF THINGS, EVOLUTION ONLY FORMS THINGS THAT ALREADY EXIST. In fact as I was saying, my black painted stereo may evolve into gray stereo because sunlight and gravity chipped the paint off over the years, but that doesnt mean sunlight and gravity created the stereo, and if you think such is capable of creating any ordered, complex, detailed functioning life form or technology, THEN PROVE IT AND SHOW ME ONE EVIDENCE.

I dont pity me, I pity for your soul and Jesus is so right "They have eyes but cant see, have ears but cant hear".
 
Originally posted by ThatJerk
I find that when I deny the existence of God I'm told to prove that he doesn't exist.

Denying the existence of God is different to stateing that He does not exist.

Figures... apparantly believing in a fairy-tale rots one's brain to the extent that one does not even understand the simple concept of 'burden of proof'.

Does not the burden of proof, lay with the person who makes the claim?
How does believing in fairy tales rot the brain?

I claim to possess a large, fire-breathing dragon. People naturally want to see my dragon, so I show them. There's only one problem; it's invisible. Naturally they're a little skeptical so they ask me to prove that he exists. I respond with a snappy "Prove he DOESN'T exist!"

That wouldn't be nesaccery, they would still be able to see, feel and smell the fire he breathed.

Without proof it is just that, a CLAIM. Not a truth. It is NOT the responsibility of the skeptics to prove that a claim is NOT true.

What if he can't back it up, but the claim is still true?

http://members.tripod.com/therev67/ancientcivil/dogon/index.htm

Conclusion: At best the belief that God as an entity exists is an unfounded CLAIM, due to a singular lack of actual evidence, and at worst it is an outright fabrication.

The same can be said of any belief system, including the theory of evolution, as their is no real scientific evidence, just suppostion, inferance, hope and wishfull thinking, IMHO.

Attempts to use the bible as a reference are self-defeating and retarded.

You've just made a claim......now prove it?

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
the Bible

Hi all

Never posted on a foreom before, but here's a good place to start:

Originally posted by ThatJerk

I AM interested in Christians who profess to believe in a book they either haven't read, period, or have only skimmed. Have you made your burnt offering today? Didn't think so. Do you think God was kidding when he said that we must do this forever?

....Conclusion: Today's Christians are NOT CHRISTIANS. They reject pretty well all of the bible's actual teachings, ignoring the bits about killing non-believers and making daily animal sacrifices to the LORD. If you cut out the offensive, barbaric and out-dated portions of the bible you'd be left with a pamphlet saying "Don't kill things. And stuff." with a pretty picture of Jesus playing with puppies and children.
Click to expand...

I profess to believe the Bible - I don't know many Christians who don't read it. There arn't actually any out-dated portions of the bible, it is all profitable and relevent and it will stand till the end of time. If there are bits that offend people or seem barbaric, that isn't a reason to cut them out. I don't think there's any mention of puppies either.

I havn't made my burnt offering today, or sacrificed any bulls. I don't have to. The law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews 9. Or Psalm 51 v 16+17. Sacrificres, offerings, tabernacles and priests were all ordinances of God to signify His holiness, man's sinfulness, and the need for a sacrifice. Christ is that great sacrifice. He was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many. We can learn loads from the OT. It tells us about God and man, and from the begining it gradually reveals Christ. Everything it says is true. But we are not Isralites living in the days prior to Christ's coming, so we don't obey their ordinances literally in the same way.

And there are no commands to kill non-believers. To preach Jesus Christ to them, and reach them with the gospel, but not kill them.

:cool:
 
Hello Smalltime

Well I burnt the toast this morning (now there's an offering), I didn't sacrifice a bull, but I read lots of it in the newspaper.

You say the OT tells you all about god and man.
So hows does this sound "God made man.....but only because man said so".
 
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