Do you agree that innocence was lost when mankind came to the knowledge of Good and evil?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
God...who believes?
- Thread starter Thoreau
- Start date
Do you agree that innocence was lost when mankind came to the knowledge of Good and evil?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
yeah, but i don't think anyone overted the fall and that remnant exists today. otherwise there would be a race of perfect people out there somewhere.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
very funny enmos. while i do think you are awesome, i don't think you're any nearer to perfect than the rest of us, and i don't attribut your awesomeness to your nationality or lineage. i think that's all you.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
The Dutch are a bunch asswipes though, like the rest of humanity.
Thank you, by the way
Ok have you heard about the concept of happenings in the Old Testament as being symbolic of the future? Sometimes they are called shadows?
Anyway in the story of the Exodus, the decendants of Abraham where freed from the slavery of Egypt so they could come to a land of milk and honey.
Now the thing is that the vast majority of the people freed from the persecution of Ejypt never inheroited the promised land. Even Moses the one sent to free them never entered the promised Land. From of the top of my head maybe the scriptures mention 3 people that made it. I guess you can ask God directly who they where, He could tell you.
Anyway the vast majority where forced By God to wander the desert of a generation until they all died before their children could enter the promised land. Now there was a reason why this happened. It was because the ones freed from Egypt rebelled against Gods will for them to enter the Promised Land. For when Moses and the people left Egypt they first journey to the borders of the land of milk and honey. But upon arriving they sent out scouts into the land to bring back a report. Seems one of the scouting groups came back with a report that the land was inhabited by fearsome people of large stature and the people feared and refused to enter into the land as God wanted them to. See they feared men more then they believed in God.
So God was about to destroy the people and once again start with Moses as He started with Abraham many years before to create a people. Now Moses asked God for mercy for the people, So God said that he would not destroy the people but that they would never enter the Promised Land. He would force them to wander the desert until they all died. Later there where calls from the people saying that their children who took no part in the rebellion would be unjustifiable victims of the punishment. Now God Himself said something very important in His reply to them and i quote:
Deuteronomy 1:39
"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
(that being the promised land)
Now if you feel the need. Go and ask God if He said this or if this statement “who today have no knowledge of good and evil” recorded in the bible is a lie. Note the bible is recording this as something said By God to Moses. These are not the words of a Prophet but supposedly directly from God Himself.
I believe God here is saying that the little ones had no knowledge of Good and Evil therefore little ones are Innocent.
So there is a kind of perfect race of people out there, maybe that’s why Jesus said about them:
Matthew 18
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
later in the same chapter he said:
10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
If you look at the scriptures in the book of Revelation one of the descriptions of the 144,000 is thus:
Revelation 14
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
Think i have read all the posts.
When i have explained the points that i have and have answered the questions i feel the need to answer then there is no need to post again.
I only post when i feel the need to post.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Hold on, no one knows!
Their are believers, non-believers, people still neutral on the subject, but no one knows!
Lori got tricked into saying she's a knower - but all that is really known with Lori is she has had extrodinary experiences with something that has more knowledge and understanding then we do. That is 'God' to her, and it might be 'God' but it might be something else with a greater amount of knowledge than us. I don't have to discredit Lori's experiences to still know, she doesn't know.
And if someone is 'absolutely certain' in something they believe but they don't understand, they most deffinetly do not KNOW!
Many men have been wrong about things that were once universally agreed upon, like a flat earth, or the sun revolving around us.
To this day most people think the sky and the oceans are blue, without ever figuring out why they appear that way (sky is just the light from the sun reflecting off a dark background - oceans are just reflections of the sky).
Many things have been thought to be known, that were wrong. Believing strongly doesn't change belief to knowledge!
Their are believers, non-believers, people still neutral on the subject, but no one knows!
Lori got tricked into saying she's a knower - but all that is really known with Lori is she has had extrodinary experiences with something that has more knowledge and understanding then we do. That is 'God' to her, and it might be 'God' but it might be something else with a greater amount of knowledge than us. I don't have to discredit Lori's experiences to still know, she doesn't know.
And if someone is 'absolutely certain' in something they believe but they don't understand, they most deffinetly do not KNOW!
Many men have been wrong about things that were once universally agreed upon, like a flat earth, or the sun revolving around us.
To this day most people think the sky and the oceans are blue, without ever figuring out why they appear that way (sky is just the light from the sun reflecting off a dark background - oceans are just reflections of the sky).
Many things have been thought to be known, that were wrong. Believing strongly doesn't change belief to knowledge!
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
What do you mean she got tricked ? She said that out of her own free will.
A flat of eggs is 12x12 i.e. 1 gross.
In this post http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2334129&postcount=81 you said:
"A definition of supernatural means 'above and beyond nature'."
and then
"...Investigating the supernatural either through science or spirituality leads to understanding."
So I naturally wondered:
1) So what's "above and beyond nature?" Your "definition" makes no sense to me.
and
2) How can you investigate something which isn't there, has never been there and which you can't interact with in any way? Science require observation of something as its initial kick off point. Spirituality is a bit more loosey-goosey, but still the princible of needing an object first would seem to apply.
I disagree. We could use the term 'innocence' either to imply that no wrong is done or that one is completely ignorant of the wrong they have done. The latter is the only one you can mean - it is not an implication that no wrong is done.
For instance, with no knowledge of good and evil, Adam could have spent his days urinating and defecating on Eve's head without any moral implications whatsoever - not because he hadn't done "wrong" but simply because he had no knowledge of it.
Adam and Eve were the idiots that didn't even realise they were naked and had no moral concerns, (i.e standard animals). That's apparently what you wish to have remained.
elephantmanmusic
Registered Member
God or not?
fyi, I'm not trying to be vitriolic at all. Just rational. It seems people have it backward. If indeed there is a God and he did create nature and laws and the rule of law, then logically he is just as much in the game as every one of us. I mean if you make the rules of a game, why would you immediately just decide, naw that doesn't apply to me. You would immediately be called a cheat on any playground in the world. Now, if you wanted to jump into the game and show off a little bit, prove that you were the one who made the rules, then that might be different. You might do a few things to gain everyone's interest-you know, get them talking-but you certainly wouldn't do something irrational like do away with gravity. Unless you just wanted to end everything of course.
Wanted to also dispel some other assumptions.
myth 1) Religious people are stupid. If current numbers have 88% of the world believing in God, unless the other 12% are ONLY atheists and agnostics, then this assumption can't be true. It also violates the idea of an intellectual bell curve. In any given class, the majority of students will be average, so the really dumb ones would be around 10% and the really smart ones would be around 10% presumably . Also, I would like all of the atheists and agnostics to raise their hands if they know 1 or 2 complete idiots who happen to be atheists or agnostics. Now we can all raise our hands and admit the same for a few religionists (new word) we may know. (Religionist = a believer in a belief. lol.)
myth 2) Any one religion knows exactly what God is like. This is where a lot of people get messed up as well. Many religionists (I don't know how many) are continually questioning and wondering and learning about the universe and their concept of God. The sane ones don't reject science. They simply question it like everyone should. You can probably guess by now that I believe in God, but my view of God has changed immensely from when I was a child. I would also say my belief is stronger and less naive. I would also say that 85% of what Christian churches teach about God is not necessarily true. Which brings me to myth 3.
myth 3) My or anyone else's possibly flawed belief in God, does not affect whether or not God existing is indeed factual or not. A belief in God doesn't mean you somehow miraculously get all of your facts straight. I would guess that the spiritual state of infants might be closest to the purity of oneness with God spiritually, but that doesn't mean that they come out of the womb quoting Shakespeare.
fyi, I'm not trying to be vitriolic at all. Just rational. It seems people have it backward. If indeed there is a God and he did create nature and laws and the rule of law, then logically he is just as much in the game as every one of us. I mean if you make the rules of a game, why would you immediately just decide, naw that doesn't apply to me. You would immediately be called a cheat on any playground in the world. Now, if you wanted to jump into the game and show off a little bit, prove that you were the one who made the rules, then that might be different. You might do a few things to gain everyone's interest-you know, get them talking-but you certainly wouldn't do something irrational like do away with gravity. Unless you just wanted to end everything of course.
Wanted to also dispel some other assumptions.
myth 1) Religious people are stupid. If current numbers have 88% of the world believing in God, unless the other 12% are ONLY atheists and agnostics, then this assumption can't be true. It also violates the idea of an intellectual bell curve. In any given class, the majority of students will be average, so the really dumb ones would be around 10% and the really smart ones would be around 10% presumably . Also, I would like all of the atheists and agnostics to raise their hands if they know 1 or 2 complete idiots who happen to be atheists or agnostics. Now we can all raise our hands and admit the same for a few religionists (new word) we may know. (Religionist = a believer in a belief. lol.)
myth 2) Any one religion knows exactly what God is like. This is where a lot of people get messed up as well. Many religionists (I don't know how many) are continually questioning and wondering and learning about the universe and their concept of God. The sane ones don't reject science. They simply question it like everyone should. You can probably guess by now that I believe in God, but my view of God has changed immensely from when I was a child. I would also say my belief is stronger and less naive. I would also say that 85% of what Christian churches teach about God is not necessarily true. Which brings me to myth 3.
myth 3) My or anyone else's possibly flawed belief in God, does not affect whether or not God existing is indeed factual or not. A belief in God doesn't mean you somehow miraculously get all of your facts straight. I would guess that the spiritual state of infants might be closest to the purity of oneness with God spiritually, but that doesn't mean that they come out of the womb quoting Shakespeare.
Welcome to the 'BWANR' Club..
(Believers who are not religious)
(Believers who are not religious)