God is love?

Re: A not so groovy kind of love...

Originally posted by Nehushta
I might also point out that there are many passages where God supposedly claims to be the only god and savior, and that there is no other savior beside him. He takes great pains to make sure his people understand this concept and that it is written on their hearts that God is One, and he is not a man - then he allegedly comes to earth as a man (or sends his only begotten son who is supposedly the second person of the Triune - take your pick), and promises to destroy all those who don't believe in him! :confused:
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Repeatedly in Gen, Exodus, and Pslams there is reference to being above all other gods. The only argument I've seen to this is that these other gods referenced are actually just ideas of other gods which don't really exist. However, this could be extended to say that the whole Bible refers to gods which don't exist.
(Yeah... I know... both sides of this argument are weak)
 
....hold the phone....

God is love.
God gave his SON to die for US! Why us? hwy us sinful ppl who go around getting more and more 'stuff' for ourselves? He did it because he LOVES US. He WANTS to communicate with us. He WANTS communion with us.
America spends 9 BILLION dollars on COSMETICS a year!!! And we complain about poverty in countries? Poverty is a RESULT of OUR actions. Not God. God doesn't want evil things into the world. But we were born into sin/evil. What can you expect? evil is a result of our actions. Not God's. God is perfect. He hurts when we do something wrong. He doesn't just sit back and watch the world go by. He interacts with who is willing to. He wants a PERSOAL relationship with YOU! The world is in pain/poverty/ and other crap is going on because of human nature actions. Not GOD.
 
Re: ....hold the phone....

Originally posted by withoutGodIamnothin
God is love. God gave his SON to die for US! Why us? hwy us sinful ppl who go around getting more and more 'stuff' for ourselves? He did it because he LOVES US. He WANTS to communicate with us. He WANTS communion with us. America spends 9 BILLION dollars on COSMETICS a year!!! And we complain about poverty in countries? Poverty is a RESULT of OUR actions. Not God. God doesn't want evil things into the world. But we were born into sin/evil. What can you expect? evil is a result of our actions. Not God's. God is perfect. He hurts when we do something wrong. He doesn't just sit back and watch the world go by. He interacts with who is willing to. He wants a PERSOAL relationship with YOU! The world is in pain/poverty/ and other crap is going on because of human nature actions. Not GOD.
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Good for you that you believe that. However this thread is on the Bible's support of this love.

Thank you.
 
Bridge,

Presumably everything God does has a purpose. Whether or not we realize it at the time makes little or no difference to a sovereign entity.
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It is a big presumption. What if this god is just a young child from a larger family of gods and we are his toys for him to discard and torment, as he desires?

Surely the only way we can tell whether such a god is good or bad is by his actions. To us death and destruction are not good things and are not consistent with claims of universal love and omni-benevolence.

Perhaps there is a greater good where it is necessary for thousands or millions of people, (men, women, and children), to be killed at his hands but in the absence of the explanation of a long term plan, we have no way to tell the difference between an evil super being and a good super being. To judge by his destructive actions so far we can only conclude that he is bad, or that he simply does not exist.
 
Re: Re: Persol

Originally posted by Persol
Originally posted by Bridge
You need to elaborate on one issue at a time. Since the alleged contradictions and the alleged answers to those alleged contradictions could easily take years to sort through and could literally fill a library, I'm suggesting you might wish to specify where in the Bible God lied and we can discuss that first.
Ok... I guess I'd start near the beginning

Genesis 2:17 - "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Genesis 5:5 - "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
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A note here. Some scholars actually interpret the original hebrew to mean - literally - dying you shall die. Which is interpreted not as instant death [loong story - I like short posts]. Adam was not forbidden to eat from the 'Tree of Life'. In essence, if he didn't 'eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', He might still be here today. And forgetting all that - he died eventually... so...:)
 
Re: Re: Re: Persol

Originally posted by MarcAC
A note here. Some scholars actually interpret the original hebrew to mean - literally - dying you shall die. Which is interpreted not as instant death [loong story - I like short posts]. Adam was not forbidden to eat from the 'Tree of Life'. In essence, if he didn't 'eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', He might still be here today. And forgetting all that - he died eventually... so...:)
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Thank you... that makes sense. I use an annotated Bible, but I must admit that while I've read the base text, I haven't read all the annotations.
 
sorry.....

Fine. The bible clearly states that God is love. We don't always understand what God does. Sometimes he does something one way...then the next...a different way. Who are we to question God? Job questioned God a lot when God allowed (key word...allowed) Satan to test Job. Job still kept his faith with God and didn't give up. Who are we to judge God ? The bible says we look through fog (my translation) we have no idea what the future is. God does stuff the way HE wants to. Whether we like it or not.

Sorry if this has nothing to do with this tread. But I just started into this thread and didn't know. But that's my 2 cents worth anyways.
 
Re: sorry.....

Originally posted by withoutGodIamnothin
Fine. The bible clearly states that God is love.
Yet the Bible also states that God lies. Why do we believe that this isn't one of those lies? God's actions seem to contradict the thought that 'God is Love'.

We don't always understand what God does. Sometimes he does something one way...then the next...a different way. Who are we to question God?
See Cris's post. It explains it better then I could.

Job questioned God a lot when God allowed (key word...allowed) Satan to test Job. Job still kept his faith with God and didn't give up.
The response to this is "If all your friends jumped off a cliff..." Just because Job kept his faith doesn't mean it was warrented. Also, Job's relationship with Job was 'unique'.

The bible says we look through fog (my translation) we have no idea what the future is. God does stuff the way HE wants to. Whether we like it or not.
If God does the stuff the way he wants to is besides the point. The question is if he does it with love.

Sorry if this has nothing to do with this tread. But I just started into this thread and didn't know. But that's my 2 cents worth anyways.
No problem. I'm just trying to keep this a little more focused.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Bridge,

It is a big presumption. What if this god is just a young child from a larger family of gods and we are his toys for him to discard and torment, as he desires?

Surely the only way we can tell whether such a god is good or bad is by his actions. To us death and destruction are not good things and are not consistent with claims of universal love and omni-benevolence.

Perhaps there is a greater good where it is necessary for thousands or millions of people, (men, women, and children), to be killed at his hands but in the absence of the explanation of a long term plan, we have no way to tell the difference between an evil super being and a good super being. To judge by his destructive actions so far we can only conclude that he is bad, or that he simply does not exist.
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Sorry to butt in, but the interesting thing here is that the Bible itself assumes that as far as we're concerned God is the ultimate being, even if He's a 'child from a larger family of gods'. As far as we're concerned the bigger picture wouldn't matter. If I was a kid's toy car I would just have to accept all the crashes and scratches and broken windshields I get. And a point about God's actions. The bible actually uses His standards as those which determine good and evil - so for the Biblical God theist - what God says is good is good. O.k... basically... for the theist - without God - good and evil are non-existent.:)
 
Originally posted by MarcAC
Sorry to butt in
You better be!

Just kidding:)

but the interesting thing here is that the Bible itself assumes that as far as we're concerned God is the ultimate being, even if He's a 'child from a larger family of gods'. As far as we're concerned the bigger picture wouldn't matter. If I was a kid's toy car I would just have to accept all the crashes and scratches and broken windshields I get.
Yes, but unlike a toy car we have some choice. We can at the very least resist a god who does not have our best interest in mine.

And a point about God's actions. The bible actually uses His standards as those which determine good and evil - so for the Biblical God theist - what God says is good is good. O.k... basically... for the theist - without God - good and evil are non-existent.:)
It is nice to say that, but human society also had it's definition of god and evil. For instance, stoning is no longer accepted (in most places). Even children who do not know about religion know right and wrong.
I know you understand this, as you said 'for the theist'... but I think it is possible to show that according to God's own standards God is evil.
 
Hopefully finally 'butt in'

Addressing the original post. My personal view - as yes, it is difficult to visualise how God can be loving. I believe where good and evil are concerned - it is not like a choice A or B - that would be impossible. You say suicide is wrong [evil] - now you see your wife about to be shot in the head [almost certain death] and you can save her life only by taking the bullet. What do you do? Step in front - or just leave her there to take the bullet? Wouldn't it be suicide if you take that bullet? Do we label the act a good one or an evil one? This is a vague but, I think effective, analogue to many biblical events which are of concern.One important bit. Remember, you loveyour wife.;)
 
Re: Hopefully finally 'butt in'

Originally posted by MarcAC
Hopefully finally 'butt in'
Stop back in when you see something you can enlighten us with... you seem to know your stuff

(suicide to save other)...This is a vague but, I think effective, analogue to many biblical events which are of concern.
Although God never actually puts himself at risk but convinces others to do so. While I wouldn't consider sacrificing yourself for someone as evil, I would think it evil to force someone to give their life for another person.
 
Re: Re: Hopefully finally 'butt in'

Originally posted by Persol
Originally posted by MarcAC
Although God never actually puts himself at risk but convinces others to do so. While I wouldn't consider sacrificing yourself for someone as evil, I would think it evil to force someone to give their life for another person.
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Remember Jesus? Next time.:)
 
WHAT?!?!?

WHERE DOES IT EVER EVER!! SAY THAT GOD LIES?!?!? you must be reading out of something other than the bible guys, because NEVER never does it say that God lies. God hates when ppl lie. Ever heard of the quote "Lyers go to...."? Prove to me where God lies. I wanna see this for myself.
 
Re: WHAT?!?!?

Originally posted by withoutGodIamnothin
WHERE DOES IT EVER EVER!! SAY THAT GOD LIES?!?!? you must be reading out of something other than the bible guys, because NEVER never does it say that God lies. God hates when ppl lie. Ever heard of the quote "Lyers go to...."? Prove to me where God lies. I wanna see this for myself.
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Previously posted by Nehushta:
Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
Re: Re: Re: Hopefully finally 'butt in'

Originally posted by MarcAC
Remember Jesus?
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Who said Jesus was ever actually at risk. He/They/Him knew that he would be resurected.
 
so. Where does it say "then God lies" . It not implying at all that God lies. Prophets etc. were decieved. Does it say that God lied TO THEM? I don't understand how u get "god lied" out of those scriptures?
 
Originally posted by withoutGodIamnothin
so. Where does it say "then God lies" . It not implying at all that God lies. Prophets etc. were decieved. Does it say that God lied TO THEM? I don't understand how u get "god lied" out of those scriptures?
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Ezekiel 14:9 ...I the LORD have deceived that prophet...
(God has deceived, if you want to be picky I'll agree that this supports that God will deceive.)

1 Kings 22:23 ...the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth...
(God makes others lie)

2 Thessalonians 2:11 ...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie...
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(God forcing others to believe a lie)

Now if you believe that the bible is the word of god there are many contradicting statements in the bible. If you state 2 opposing facts, one of them is a lie.
 
Persol, it appears

amongst the science enthusiasts you also have plenty of Biblical scholars and critics. I did note some good answers in the mix along the way, specifically the Genesis verse re: the apple, et al. death was not instant death, etc. As for Ezekiel, the Hebrew 'patah' (persuade) was translated with a negative connotation to mean entice or deceive. Having two other languages besides English myself, I'm acutely aware not all words translate easily. Strong's Concordance is very helpful for cross referencing the usage of Hebrew throughout the Bible.


Personally, I don't really want to get into a pissing contest with some folks who have already decided for themselves EXACTLY what the Bible says. If you ever need help finding references or help with specific difficult verses or any related questions, feel free to PM me and I'll try to help you out. Looks like a good thread, you should have fun.
 
Re: Persol, it appears

Originally posted by Bridge
amongst the science enthusiasts you also have plenty of Biblical scholars and critics....

Personally, I don't really want to get into a pissing contest with some folks who have already decided for themselves EXACTLY what the Bible says. If you ever need help finding references or help with specific difficult verses or any related questions, feel free to PM me and I'll try to help you out. Looks like a good thread, you should have fun.
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Thanks for your interest. Having the ability to read various versions of the Bible must be of great benefit... unfortunately I do not understand enough of any other language to be able to read anything but the English versions (although I focus on KJV due to popularity).

Please feel free to point out any translation error or opinions you have on verses. The more the merrier:)

Does anyone happen to know of a site that discuss various views (pro and con) of the Bible on a point by point basis? Currently I'm stuck using an annotated Bible as pro, and a skeptics annotated as con... but the arguments of one do not address the arguments of the other.
 
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