God is love or we Get Infinite punishment for our finite sins

[Doreen]

Maybe, maybe not - I cannot say. But Islams, Jews and Christians and all of their daughter believes certainly do say that.

I actually don't find that to be true. Certainly some do. But my contact with the actual people on the street has found many are not like that. They get freaked out by atheists, often, but seem to respect believers and do not assume the jig is up. Vocal abrahamists who end up in the media can be quite dogmatic, but others, I just haven't found it to be that way.

If every Muslim knew for sure that all Jews were headed to hell, I think they would be a lot calmer about this transitory world and its troubles.

 

[Lori_7]

So the Muslim who grows up in a Muslim village and is a great son, takes care of his ailing mother and follows the religion of his family and friends and everyone he knows,

he should go to hell, when he gets hit by a car at 25.

Are you that sadistic?

no, i'm not, and i don't think god is either. i don't know what happens when we die, and neither do you, and neither does anyone else. you don't know what that door opens up to.

i think people's fate or destiny is a more personal determination. i don't think it's determined by religion any more than a person chooses or allows it to be. if their religion holds them back, then perhaps it's in the way. that could be said of any or all religions.

i think people's fate is determined by what they believe and the choices they make though. people have to believe in the possibility of a better or a perfect existence before they can achieve it. they have to believe in a way to get there.

 

[elvinatom]

I actually don't find that to be true. Certainly some do. But my contact with the actual people on the street has found many are not like that. They get freaked out by atheists, often, but seem to respect believers and do not assume the jig is up. Vocal abrahamists who end up in the media can be quite dogmatic, but others, I just haven't found it to be that way.

If every Muslim knew for sure that all Jews were headed to hell, I think they would be a lot calmer about this transitory world and its troubles.

I'm not talking about people accepting other religions. I mean their respective god won't allow it. And that is in fact true at least for the ones I mentioned here. And also, of course atheists freak them out, all the religions have at least one thing in common: They are all based on some super natural stuff, except the atheist. He/she believes that all and any of that is untrue. You can't convert an atheist (at least not one who became one by reason).

 

[lightgigantic]

I'm not talking about people accepting other religions. I mean their respective god won't allow it. And that is in fact true at least for the ones I mentioned here. And also, of course atheists freak them out, all the religions have at least one thing in common: They are all based on some super natural stuff, except the atheist. He/she believes that all and any of that is untrue. You can't convert an atheist (at least not one who became one by reason).

Its a fallacious argument to suggest that a value ridden perspective (like atheism for example) is synonymous with rationalism.
IOW one can talk about what is rational in lieu of specific values, but to try and talk of one's values encompassing rationalism per se (to the exclusion of all others) is simply feathering one's cap.

 

[Lori_7]

This is a good demonstration of how faith works in action. I can't argue with you any further, Lori. When my 3 year old son insisted that bikes drive faster than cars, despite me showing him the difference I chose to give up as well. If you have an actual argument I will pick up the discussion again. And in case you wonder why I'm getting "a little impatient" here: I feel embarrassed for you and all the other bible fanatics. Never mind the faith itself, but taking the good book literally? I see we people still have a long road ahead of us.

i really don't think that scripture i referenced is meant to be taken literally, and my interpretation of it is not literal.

 

[elvinatom]

Its a fallacious argument to suggest that a value ridden perspective (like atheism for example) is synonymous with rationalism.
IOW one can talk about what is rational in lieu of specific values, but to try and talk of one's values encompassing rationalism per se (to the exclusion of all others) is simply feathering one's cap.

Of course, it is all just about probabilities. In fact 1+1 might in fact be 43.714. Our minds might just misinterpret it for 2. In that respect I agree: It is a matter of perspective.

 

[lightgigantic]

Of course, it is all just about probabilities. In fact 1+1 might in fact be 43.714. Our minds might just misinterpret it for 2. In that respect I agree: It is a matter of perspective.

I'm not sure where you go from "1+1=2" to "we exist in a godless universe" ...


but that aside, even 1+1=2 requires certain values to be in/valid
for instance 1 apple + 1 orange only =2 if we are working with the value of "articles of fruit" and not, say, "citrus".

 

[IamJoseph]

The scary thing is that some people will not only posit a God who would torture creatures for eternity but defend such a God's actions. I wonder if, when they see on the news, the horrific cruelty of certain dictators on earth and the people who act as apologists for it, they ever, for even a moment, realize they are looking in the mirror.

If bad did not exist, and by the will of the creator, there would be no need for laws and there would be no good. There is bad and there is good - asnd these are differentiated only by sacred laws. Love is based on laws.

 

[Dywyddyr]

There is bad and there is good - asnd these are differentiated only by sacred laws.

No.
Good and bad are (essentially) opinions.
Laws differentiate between legal and illegal.

Love is based on laws.

If you mean physical laws then you're correct.
If you mean any other then you'll have to back that up.

 

[lightgigantic]

No.
Good and bad are (essentially) opinions.
Laws differentiate between legal and illegal.


If you mean physical laws then you're correct.
If you mean any other then you'll have to back that up.

Not that I am in complete agreement with his stance, but do you really think he is using laws in terms of the disciplines of physics?

 

[IamJoseph]

If every Muslim knew for sure that all Jews were headed to hell, I think they would be a lot calmer about this transitory world and its troubles.

No such thing as hell - only spiritual blackmail. Fact is, which ever newly emerged belief one followed or rejected, christianity or Islam, they become either born of the devil or the ape: stuffed both ways. And worse if they remained neutral. This is solely resultant from two king kongs contradicting the Hebrew bible - then ending up contradicting themselves. Belief is the easiest emotion to exploit - not so majestic laws.

That the message not the messenger rules is the way to go - this is the true underlying meaning of the forbiddence of worshipping graven images. I appreciate that no names are attached to any of the Hebrew laws - they stand pristine on their own and can be accepted or rejected based on their own values - with no names attached. This alone makes a good Christian better than a bad Jew - and vice versa.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Not that I am in complete agreement with his stance, but do you really think he is using laws in terms of the disciplines of physics?

I don't think he is. But there's always the chance...

 

[IamJoseph]

No.
Good and bad are (essentially) opinions.
Laws differentiate between legal and illegal.


If you mean physical laws then you're correct.
If you mean any other then you'll have to back that up.

I refer to moral. ethical, judiciary, environmental, womens and animal rights laws. The whole kaboodle, each has its place. It is contrasted by lawlessness and self serving alternatives. The law, when accepted, must be equally impacting on all. The entire universe is based on majestic laws and none are above the law - not even God, based on the premise of truth and rightiousness..

 

[Dywyddyr]

I refer to moral. ethical, judiciary, environmental, womens and animal rights laws. The whole kaboodle, each has its place. It is contrasted by lawlessness and self serving alternatives. The law, when accepted, must be equally impacting on all. The entire universe is based on majestic laws and none are above the law - not even God, based on the premise of truth and rightiousness..

Ah, okay.
None which answers my question...

 

[IamJoseph]

Ah, okay.
None which answers my question...

I have always failed to satisfy any of your 2 M questions thus far. The law of SNAFU applies.

 

[lightgigantic]

Ah, okay.
None which answers my question...

I thought it did.

what do you suppose is the place of laws that govern animal treatment?

 

[elvinatom]

I'm not sure where you go from "1+1=2" to "we exist in a godless universe" ...


but that aside, even 1+1=2 requires certain values to be in/valid
for instance 1 apple + 1 orange only =2 if we are working with the value of "articles of fruit" and not, say, "citrus".

If you don't see the connection, you didn't pay attention properly, as I think you are not to dumb to get it. Also I didn't say apple+orange, I mentioned plain numbers as we use in mathematics, but you know that of course. This is what I consider a deterrent; but I don't believe you are actually out of arguments, are you?

 

[Dywyddyr]

I thought it did.
what do you suppose is the place of laws that govern animal treatment?

That wasn't my question.
His statement was "Love is based on laws."
I asked for him to back that up.

I have always failed to satisfy any of your 2 M questions thus far.

And another question would be: What is "2 M"?

 

[elvinatom]

Love is an emotion that has been developed in order to assist the continuation of the species, just like all the other emotions that one might have. I fail to see the relationship to any "laws" that govern it. Or the relevance. Please explain.

 

[Doreen]

If bad did not exist, and by the will of the creator, there would be no need for laws and there would be no good. There is bad and there is good - asnd these are differentiated only by sacred laws. Love is based on laws.

Not for me it isn't. Guilt isn't love. Obedience isn't love. Very few mothers need a law to love the baby placed in their arms. When I was a kid I loved other kids regardless of race or anything else. Certainly we can withhold love from people who deserve it, but even then a law is a silly way to go about it. Might as well make laws for people to love both chocolate and vanilla and, horrors, butterscotch. Love is based on experiences outside law, always. Even if they happen to align with someone's law.