the experience of forgiving. the experience of being humbled. the experience of a relationship with god. experiences that haven't stroked anything.
God is love or we Get Infinite punishment for our finite sins
- Thread starter Alan McDougall
- Start date
the experience of forgiving. the experience of being humbled. the experience of a relationship with god. experiences that haven't stroked anything.
Dearest Lori,
You warm my heart with those word of love and life, may the Lord God continue to bless and sustain you all the days of your life
Please explain what you mean by
"the injustice of an eternal Paradice [sic] reward for a limited life of faith."
and
"How unjust is that..."
Thanks.
You have a relationship with God? Are we supposed to expect yet an other magical baby to meet this world?
There's little logic in the whole thing. You bring up hell and all its inconsistencies. You might as well pick on all the other countless claims the bible makes. Sodom and Gomorrah for example - real loving god, I can see that. Love means being concerned about the one who you love. Not bullying or pressuring someone into a state of fear and ignorance - that would be a dictatorship. I'd say that counts as the complete opposite.
And since god is claimed to be omnipotent and all knowing and all good and stuff: Why all the drama with earth, hell, sin and Jesus? Why not just using your power to make everybody be in a constant state of bliss - forever? Why all catches? Is that because god likes to watch people fail - since he's all knowing he must have seen that coming for all the poor souls who failed the "earth-test", or is it cause our omnipotent can't get the job done right, like with the devil who's obviously an angel that was not created right?
Something is fishy here.
And since god is claimed to be omnipotent and all knowing and all good and stuff: Why all the drama with earth, hell, sin and Jesus? Why not just using your power to make everybody be in a constant state of bliss - forever? Why all catches? Is that because god likes to watch people fail - since he's all knowing he must have seen that coming for all the poor souls who failed the "earth-test", or is it cause our omnipotent can't get the job done right, like with the devil who's obviously an angel that was not created right?
Something is fishy here.
It does seem like there is a disproportionate reward or punishment based on a finite set of actions in one life lived on Earth. If you adhere to the God blesses / curses belief system, then you are judged based on what you do on this planet.
There are so many variables that need to be balanced, weighed against the others, then judged based on interactions with everyone else's actions that reflect (in some way, direct or indirect) on the person in question. It would take a god or very small computer to work through the endless permutations to determine that person's ultimate fate. But then, by that point, it's become less of a "Book of Deeds" and more of a set of 1's and 0's that ultimately swing the decision one way or the other (paradise or purgatory).
Those that are either born without the knowledge of Jesus/God or die before they get a chance (infants) are either shunted en-masse to hell or heaven, depending on whoever spouts what they want at the time. If they are automatically placed into Heaven, then it implies there is either no reason for experiencing (and placing oneself) according to actions done on Earth, or that those "souls" are / were too good for this realm and needed the body solely for the purpose of moving onward (milestone). If Hell, then perhaps the opposite is the explanation (that dead infants are / were evil) but that conflicts with so many other parts from the bible that it doesn't seem right.
There does seem to be that inherent dichotomy built into the foundation of Christianity: male/female, heaven/earth, heaven/hell, child/man, straight/wide paths, dark/white, works/words. There's very little gray and when there is, it really depends on which testament you're reading "old = dickish god" ; "new = forgiving god".
Ran out of gas towards the end here, but enjoyed Alan's idea of this disproportionate system of retribution.
There are so many variables that need to be balanced, weighed against the others, then judged based on interactions with everyone else's actions that reflect (in some way, direct or indirect) on the person in question. It would take a god or very small computer to work through the endless permutations to determine that person's ultimate fate. But then, by that point, it's become less of a "Book of Deeds" and more of a set of 1's and 0's that ultimately swing the decision one way or the other (paradise or purgatory).
Those that are either born without the knowledge of Jesus/God or die before they get a chance (infants) are either shunted en-masse to hell or heaven, depending on whoever spouts what they want at the time. If they are automatically placed into Heaven, then it implies there is either no reason for experiencing (and placing oneself) according to actions done on Earth, or that those "souls" are / were too good for this realm and needed the body solely for the purpose of moving onward (milestone). If Hell, then perhaps the opposite is the explanation (that dead infants are / were evil) but that conflicts with so many other parts from the bible that it doesn't seem right.
There does seem to be that inherent dichotomy built into the foundation of Christianity: male/female, heaven/earth, heaven/hell, child/man, straight/wide paths, dark/white, works/words. There's very little gray and when there is, it really depends on which testament you're reading "old = dickish god" ; "new = forgiving god".
Ran out of gas towards the end here, but enjoyed Alan's idea of this disproportionate system of retribution.
That is another good point here. What if I killed a man? Does that mean hell? What if that man was about to murder someone else, maybe many people? I guess it's hell for me anyways then - for breaking a major rule, despite of me trying to help people. And what about all the little things in life? The world just isn't black and white. There are just so many variables. And what's good and what's evil is always in the eye of the beholder.
yes...
Revelation 12:1-17,
1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and it cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. 8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Wow Lori, your scripts are totally pointless. They do not contribute to an intelligent discussion. And anyways, please read these citations over and tell me in all honesty, don't you feel a little silly to believe that stuff? I mean you're not 4 years old I assume, or else you wouldn't be here. Jesus freaking Christ!
This may mean well but it serves no good purpose. It limits God to the notion of love, when it is clear God is not describable or quantifiable. The other problem is it renders the God of the universe limited to one belief system, which has shown the most disregard for the premise of love throughout its history.
The truth is, love is subjective and is conditional to certain criteria of onus and responsibilities, never of self interest, and less imperitive to the premise of two other commands: Honesty [3rd Commandment] and Honour [5th Commandment]. What price love without honesty and honor?
Love has little value when applying only to those who hold the same belief - and the greatest value when tested here:
THEREFORE YOU SHALL LOVE THE STRANGER [one from another belief].
ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER.
It is clear much of the world's problems the past 2000 years came from the fullfilling away of humanity's most sacred and majestic laws - but this was a lost cause: the true law of love will stand long after those who flaunted it will.
You mention 'this' and then go on to react to something he did not say. It wasn't about God liking them, it was about God not sending them to suffer in hell for eternity.
Whose body has become like his?
Why are you here on earth if you hate it so much? And what does this have to do with the OP?
Who is whining like this? Yours is the second post in the thread. What are you reacting to?
Do you remember what Jesus said about the beam in your own eye? or did that one slip past you?
Death.
So the Muslim who grows up in a Muslim village and is a great son, takes care of his ailing mother and follows the religion of his family and friends and everyone he knows,
he should go to hell, when he gets hit by a car at 25.
Are you that sadistic?
Has nothing to do with anyones personal feelings I think. But it does show another aspect of the falseness of theism. There are countless religions that can't all be true, since they all claim to be the only true religion. Therefore only a very small percentage goes to heaven. The rest of us all go to hell, regardless of how we lived our lives - just because we were brought up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seems like god demands us to be loyal to him. I can't believe that we have accomplished space exploration and artificial intelligence but our race is still "seriously!" discussing if Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are real.
i answered the question. and if you mean "believe there is meaning in that stuff", then yes i do. i believe that scripture is referring to a population actually, not just a baby. a population of 144,000 who will die for their belief in christ in the very last days of this age, but who will be the first born into the new kingdom of christ in a new age.
I don't think all or perhaps even most religious people assume that if you have another religion you are doomed to hell. Certainly pagans and idigenous religions were not usually like this, and it seems to me even the followers of Abrahamic religions, the people on the street so to speak, do not all or even most assume that you are toast if you aren't in the right one.
The scary thing is that some people will not only posit a God who would torture creatures for eternity but defend such a God's actions. I wonder if, when they see on the news, the horrific cruelty of certain dictators on earth and the people who act as apologists for it, they ever, for even a moment, realize they are looking in the mirror.Infinite punishment for our finite sins.
That's a big waste of fuel.
And it is in direct contrast to any notion of love.
Maybe, maybe not - I cannot say. But Islams, Jews and Christians and all of their daughter believes certainly do say that.
This is a good demonstration of how faith works in action. I can't argue with you any further, Lori. When my 3 year old son insisted that bikes drive faster than cars, despite me showing him the difference I chose to give up as well. If you have an actual argument I will pick up the discussion again. And in case you wonder why I'm getting "a little impatient" here: I feel embarrassed for you and all the other bible fanatics. Never mind the faith itself, but taking the good book literally? I see we people still have a long road ahead of us.