God does not exist.

"So what you're saying is that you think prayer is like sex right?"

Are you still a virgin, Cris? I have watched Holly Rollers in action once. That looked somewhat like a group orgasm. Maybe there is a comparison.

I think that most human activity would look dumb when viewed objectively.




------------------
It's all very large.
 
Bowser,

Again, our observations (evidence) is SUBJECTED to human reasoning. If we believe in "scriptural record," would it be reasonable to associate apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, with a false perception--the Devil's work?
Click to expand...

It's a good point but how does one reach the decision that 'spiritual record' is true without using 'limited' human reasoning. Aren't you arguing against yourself because at some point you would have felt that to believe the scriptures is reasonable. Why do you think your sense of reasoning is superior to mine, or more generally to non-believers of scripture.

Cris
 
Bowser,

Originally posted by Bowser:
I have watched Holly Rollers in action once. That looked somewhat like a group orgasm.
Click to expand...

I don't know 'Holly Rollers'. However, I can understand how being on ones knees does sometimes have its merits. :D

Cris
 
Cris--

You ever see a Foursquare service? With the whooping and hollering and hopping around and the "receiving" of the "spirit" when overweight women are overcome and pass out? (I was moved by Jesus! No, honey, you just hyperventilated. Praise Jesus!

Of Bowser's analogy, I might say we should respect it well. To the one hand, yes, such services do look rather like an orgy with clothes. To the other, he's in Oregon, and I recall there's quite the number of goofball congregations down there.

Someone once mentioned the snakes. Generally, we count the snake-handling Christians as holy rollers, too. I dunno--is there actually a Church of Jesus Christ of the Holy Rollers out there? Wouldn't surprise me at all.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
So, as far as I can gather from any relevant responses to my question (i.e. why have faith at all, being that it is just an groundless belief), the following points are made:

1) There are things that science cannot explain, and therefore they must be magical. (Tony)
2) Faith drives people into noble behaviors they wouldn't entertain otherwise. (Tony)
3) Who cares, it makes me feel good. (RedCat)

None of which strikes me as mature, responsible or indeed well-considered. Here's why:

<hr>
1) You are saying that the unexplained cannot be explained, and never will be explained. Talk about repeating past mistakes (you're supposed to learn from history, not selectively acknowledge it.) A lot of things happened since the Bible was written down; it might be helpful to pay attention to those latter happenings (which are, by the way, far better grounded than the miracle happenings of Christ.) On the other hand, every time you make a "miracle" claim, you are making a bet that the "miracle" will not eventually succumb to mundane explanation. Countless such bets have fallen through already, but that does not seem to dull the conviction of those who made them. Rather the failures seem to have been comfortably forgotten, and attention shifted to the new "miracles". Yes, that bit about learning from the past really fits the overall tune here.

Consider that the doctrine of miracles and scriptural fidelity is an orthodox force acting against free thought; if all humans were equally under its spell, we would never achieve our current level of civilization. Exploration is a function of herecy, of going against the omnipresent dogma. If it were not for the open and secret herecy of inquisitive minds, science (if it could be so designated) would have been limited in its progress to mere serendipity, and even then discoveries counter to dogma would have been discarded and discounted as evil magic. That dogma dances to an anscient tune, a depressing one that draws on despair, and the dance is that of stagnantion, rot, devolution. It has been the end of all anscient civilizations, even glorious and magnificent ones that spanned millenia -- and yet you still won't learn. You participate in that dance eagerly, you even aspire to lead it.

Far be it from science or the infidels to shun the unknown; indeed they welcome it with glee. But the excitement stems not from a giddy anticipation of yet another potential miracle to reaffirm sagging faith; it is the joy of plunging into the unknown, exploration, experience and ultimately comprehension. Only a naive child would think that the universe is now completely mapped by our theories; here too it is a simple matter of learning from the past. Yet even beyond that, no rigorous theory in sight dares to explain the ultimate phenomenon and paradox of existence. Until this fundamental puzzle is resolved, science will ever be an enterprise in progress.

Most of all, to accept a doctrine of miracles and unexplainability, is to propose that the universe is fundamentally chaotic and unstructured. Not only is that a defeatist attitude, but it flatly contradicts everyday experience. The keystone of science is a "faith" of sorts, and the religious debaters dance around it often in these forums, misrepresenting it and equating it to their own groundless beliefs. That faith derives not from scripture or from revelation, nor from authoritative personages with gargantuan reputations, not from wishful thinking or a sense of awe, not from dreams, hallucinations, vicarious experiences or mysterious happenings, but from the very fact of existence, and this faith consists in observations of that very reality's structure and order.

The faith of a scientist is that the universe be a fundamentally structured and ordered entity, down to its most essential layers. Science no longer aspires to know the complete and exact state of the univese, however -- as such endeavors are proven to be impossible. Science no longer aims to quantify and predict every last variable in the universe's grand equation. Nevertheless, the underlying basis of confidence for all free-thinkers rests ultimately upon their own selves and the world around them -- a postulation that such order cannot in principle arise from a fundamental chaos, that lasting patterns can only arise from sub-patterns and not from noise, and that therefore the universe has to be structured along its entire range of existence. And if the universe is indeed a fundamentally orderly entity, then all of its forms and manifestations must be nothing other than permutations and patterns built out of and on top of that essential structure. Therefore, the reasoning goes, any observed phenomenon can be reduced to its constituent parts and the interactions between them. All one needs, is a correct understanding of the fundamental building blocks and all the different ways in which they hook up at all the relevant scales, as well as the time-evolution of such an assemblage (and these, of course, all constitute the doozey and the struggle.) As our understanding of the basic building blocks and their interactions is refined, and as we get down to progressively more fundamental building blocks, our understanding of the universe at large continues to grow in scope and detail. This trend of remarkable growth, to which anyone can attest, is a direct verification of the basic scientific assumptions, of the new (and yet most anscient) "faith" that is the antithesis to religion.
<hr>
2) One needn't fear or worship or pray or dream of afterlife in order to be kind, noble, charitable and wise. Indeed, one can be all those things and a great deal more, when one chooses such behavior through a logical process that leaves no doubts or reservations, nor any ambiguities or excuses for reinterpretation. Indeed, a complete atheist can behave like a perfect saint; all that's required is a respect for one's own life, and a desire to give it meaningful purpose. Of course, it will never happen that all religious people would be so benign, and similarly it could never happen that all atheists reach such an ideal. Indeed, the degree of antisocial or egoistical behavior in a population is quite independent of the prevailing faith, but rather a function of many other social and biological variables -- as history abundantly illustrates.
<hr>
3) Wellbeing may be valuable, but its exact value varies depending on the price you pay for it. A shallow and dishonest existence leading to a life sentence in a fake universe is, for some, too high a price to pay for comfort.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Hi all,

Little or no time to get into further discussion on this although its been great fun. If situation changes I will jump back in.

Boris,

I think you read me wrong. Noble behaviour? I don't even remember using the word? So please don't put words into my mouth.

Maybe religion makes for noble and whatever behaviour. Faith makes for behaviour that is not always accepted as "normal", not only behaviour but ideas, thoughts..etc.

Later.

Stretch,

Yes, same as it ever was.

Allcare

Tony H2o
 
Tony--

I got around to being sidetracked by this one.

For Boris, Cris, Tiassa, Mooncat, Searcher and others try believing and then by Gods grace you will see things differently, don't believe in mans ideas about God but go direct and find out for yourself who He is. But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log. We so often discuss being narrow minded around here, having a closed mind to what others think and believe. Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality, hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?
Click to expand...

If I recall, our friend Cris grew up in a place where religion was somewhat mandated by the state. It seems that atheists don't get sick in England, as I recall.

I cannot speak for everyone, and probably shouldn't speak on Cris' behalf, except that the hospital and school stories make me smile just so. :D

And, just so we have it clear:

I remember the constant fear of being a Christian. I remember the bleeding hypocrisy; where do you think I learned to spot it? I, for heaven's sake, remember what it's like to be a Christian.

I would absolutely enjoy a discussion of your last foray into Wicca, atheism, agnosticism, Golden Dawn pseudo-Qabalism, Sufi, or any other philosophy or religion not Christian that you've spent a considerable portion of your life believing, exploring, learning, or divining.

I wear a size nine, kind sir.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
tiassa,

Awright good memory. Yup the NHS (National Health Service) assumes that atheists must be part of the Church of England, you can’t not have a religion. :D

And Tony,

Like tiassa, I've been there, prayed, worshipped, wept for Jesus, and was generally duped by the pervasiveness of Christianity. It takes effort and courage to move against the trend and peer pressure, especially when one is a teenager. But it also requires the desire to think for oneself and to determine truth through satisfying personal search rather than accept what others believe, and what they want to force on others.

So here is an equal challenge to you. Try thinking like a true atheist for a while. I know you weren’t always a Christian and I know you have had a somewhat colorful past, but it sounded like you didn’t have a belief and then Christianity simply filled that void. You never made a choice of alternatives; you took the first system that came along when you were vulnerable. Try really putting yourself in the mind of someone with an opposing or opposite belief system, and experiment. If Christianity has any true value then it should be able to withstand your own personal critical examination. I dare you.

Take care
Cris
 
Cris,

"Aren't you arguing against yourself because at some point you would have felt that to believe the scriptures is reasonable."

I suppose it depends on your perception of evidence. I take much of standard written history as evidence, even though it's probably inaccurate or lacking whole truth. I still find some truth in it, and can see how it relates to my life.

"Why do you think your sense of reasoning is superior to mine, or more generally to non-believers of scripture."

I can't honestly make that claim. Also, I wouldn't force you to worship any god.

"I don't know 'Holly Rollers'."

They are a wild crowd when they are together. As silly as they might look, you won't find them pilaging Seattle or throwing stones at StarBucks or throwing a tantrum.

"However, I can understand how being on ones knees does sometimes have its merits."

Yeah, but that's an empty persuit.

------------------
It's all very large.
 
Hey Bowser,

I'm going to ask you a question I've addressed before to the general public: Take your life, comb through it, consider the chain of cause and effect, and explain how come you aren't a Hindu, please.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Without too much analysis, I am part Hindu. Is there some Christianity within you?

------------------
It's all very large.
 
Bowser ....

Just as a side note:

I don't know 'Holly Rollers'."

They are a wild crowd when they are together. As silly as they might look, you won't find them pilaging Seattle or throwing stones at StarBucks or throwing a tantrum.
Click to expand...

I wanted to mention how right you are. You will never find holy rollers doing anything so useful as smashing a Starbuck's or beating back overextended police authority.

;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
Bowser,

Tiassa's right, you are a natural dodger. No, seriously, how come you are not a Hindu? How come it is the judaic God you are worshipping, and not Krishna, Shiva, etc?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Dodger? I'm a rainbow of diversity! Wow, you guys sure are intolerant of anything that isn't totally black or white. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">



------------------
It's all very large.
 
So Bowser, if we stay in the GRAY area then, I assume you would be prepared to accept the idea that gods or God might not exist, right?
 
Bowser,

And your answer to the question is....

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Quote tiassa:

"I got around to being sidetracked by this one."

If I recall, our friend Cris grew up in a place where religion was somewhat mandated by the state. It seems that atheists don't get sick in England, as I recall. I cannot speak for everyone, and probably shouldn't speak on Cris' behalf, except that the hospital and school stories make me smile just so.

And, just so we have it clear:

I remember the constant fear of being a Christian. I remember the bleeding hypocrisy; where do you think I learned to spot it? I, for heaven's sake, remember what it's like to be a Christian. I would absolutely enjoy a discussion of your last foray into Wiccan atheism, agnosticism, Golden Dawn pseudo-Qabalism, Sufi, or any other philosophy or religion not Christian that you've spent a considerable portion of your life believing, exploring, learning, or divining."


Tiassa,

I know I say things that may on occasion when I reread them sound challenging but were never meant to be so. Also I think you missed the "go figure" bit at the end, I was applying my statement as much to myself (walk a mile in my shoes) as I was reflecting on how it is for others. I was not saying that none bar me has been there, I was not stating that Cris and his experiences were irrelevant, and neither was I saying that you and your view and beliefs were rubbish. If I wanted to say that then I would have come straight out and said it so please do not infer that that is what I meant. Thank you kind sir ;)

I fully understand all the drawback of religion, even of my specific one that I profess. However I would say that the drawbacks that so often stick in peoples necks are human nature and applicable to any race, belief, creed...whatever. They are human traits that affect all humanity, to use them as an excuse or reason to slander another's beliefs, religion or faith is exactly the hypocrisy that you see being practiced. "I would never do that, you shouldn't", "I would never react like that, you shouldn't", "I would never go there, you shouldn't". Its a human condition but its not just confined to my faith, its a common human condition and its tentacles spread throughout all that humanity touches. Get past the hypocrisy bit OK, every race, every nation, every politician, every religion has their hypocrites, the ones that cry holier than thou. I understand if you have had bad experiences with believers, I understand that Cris did not find his peace in the religion he once had, do you guys honestly think that I am that dull, so obtuse that I don't know this? Do you think I have never been subject to it or subjected others to it? I have and as long as I draw breath I will. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Wiccan and any other "ism" or religion you care to throw in is not perfect because the people who practice them are not perfect and try as we may will never be. Get past slandering and bitching about my faith because of others, its not about them, it's not about who did what and when and why and where to whom. It about you and God, one on one and no finger pointing for excuse finding will ever absolve any of us of our standing as individuals before Him.

Its not perfect guys, it never has been and anyone who claims otherwise is telling lies. Religions have their skeletons in the past but the past is the past and the moment that you live or die is NOW! The time that we have to make our peace is the moment to moment passing of our existence. We can make every excuse under the sun not to try, we can blame this person and find this reason and look at that atrocity and think about what happened and who did it and never in all of it will we find the capacity to forgive and forget until we are forgiven and our past is forgotten.

I know its not easy! Do you think that I never doubt? Do you think that I am so far indoctrinated into a system of belief that I can not see reason or have understanding for the way others think?

When did I last cast off my faith? When did I last look at what another believes?

When did I ever stop?

Let me show you, let me give you a glimpse of what racks my brain when in the still of the night I stand before my God, searching my own soul, seeking for understanding, and at times feeling like I'm speaking to an empty heaven.

Cris' example poses questions to me about what I think and believe. As does the example of so many I know who once did believe. You want to see what goes on in my head about what I believe? You want to know the deepest thoughts are that plague me? There are many, way to many to list now, man alive I could send you guys reeling with questions that you never even dreamed of. The example of Cris, well I'd like to know why God did not take Cris when he did believe? He said that those that were His He would never let go, He said that He goes to prepare a place for us and will take us there. Then why does Cris now not believe? Wouldn't it have been better that he died and went to heaven than to live a lost eternity? Wouldn't it be better that Cris died in his faith than in his doubt?

I'm not without understanding or compassion or empathy, I'm not so blinkered as you guys may consider me to be because I stick to what I have found in my faith.

Don't try turning words around to make it appear that I have never or could never understand the position of another, the thoughts of another, the fears of another and the doubts of another. Damn it I do and I hear and feel every bit of doubt as much as they do!

I guess I'm like the disciples when they said "Lord we believe, help our unbelief". They had doubt also, the had confusion and fear plague them as much and if not more than any of us. Yet they believed, not just because of what they saw but because of what they lived, what inspired them and who inspired them, God Himself. They also could have made any and every excuse not to believe because of the past but they choose to believe in the present, in the one that stood before them and showed them a new way, a better way and confronted them with truth. John the Baptiser was likewise, while in prison he send his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one or should they seek another? Here in prison was the man that Jesus referred to as the greatest prophet to ever live, doubting who Jesus was, unsure if the one who's sandals he was unfit to untie was actually who he had publicly proclaimed him to be.

I do understand why other do not necessarily believe what I do, I do understand doubt and fear, I do understand that there are many many questions that can not be answered. But I do not blame others for what I do and don't believe, I do not use attempt to find excuses I would much rather seek inspiration and the one who inspires. I do not run from my doubts or fears, I acknowledge that they exist and face them, I don't always immediately know the answers to them but that does not mean that I stop seeking them.

I believe, not because of any others words to me, I believe not because of what I have seen, I believe because of who I believe in and the inspiration and love that that gives me goes beyond my unbelief.


Allcare

Tony H2o
 
Tony,

A message from your heart again I see. I do have great respect for that. There really is no argument against personal feelings, and any criticism would be out of place.

I remember those doubts that wracked my brain. I no longer have any doubts, and that is a very pleasant feeling. And those feelings become stronger the more I debate with Christians.

The only way you will be able to understand my discovered perspective is to go through an 'awakening', a profound realization, (there is a word for this and I'm damned if I can remember it - tiassa, help!). And you aren't there yet, and you may never reach it. I'm sorry this sounds very condescending, and I'm in danger of sounding like the Christians I oppose. But your desire to question and doubt everything is highly admirable.

Take care
Cris
 
Cris,

"So Bowser, if we stay in the GRAY area then, I assume you would be prepared to accept the idea that gods or God might not exist, right?"

No, you can debate one position or the other. My premise is that god(s) may or may not exist. You can argue that there is no god(s), but you will be arguing with less than perfect knowledge.

Boris,

I gave you an answer.


------------------
It's all very large.
 
Bowser,

My premise is that god(s) may or may not exist.
Click to expand...

You are saying that you're an agnostic??!! What about all those references to "man's law" vs. "God's law"? And how come I never hear you mention Buddha, yet somehow God is all over your posts? And what's this constant breeze of creation coming out of your corner in every debate on evolution? And how does your intolerance of gays fit into the "rainbow", Mr. diversity?? Either you are suffering from a multiple personality disorder, or you are a Christian so strung out on the hypocricy that you can't even get your own self-assessment straight!

Oh, and as to whether you gave me an answer, I sure don't remember seeing any.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 15, 2001).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top