God does not exist.

Bowser, RedCat,

How about this for a Christian definition of faith.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp

But note especially the last statement -

(vi) By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Consider the first sentence. In plain English, it translates to, "Nothing you can say can convince me that I am wrong."

This in essence is one of the key problems that non-Christians have when attempting to reason with Christians. It really doesn't matter the strength of any reasoned argument if it doesn't agree with scripture. The Christian will believe Scripture despite reason.

Isn't this called dogma?

So redCat Do you agree with that statement of faith given in the above link, or are you open to reasoned debate?

Take care
Cris


[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 12, 2001).]
 
quote: RedCat

"Because we have faith, faith being that you believe in something that cannot be proven."

quote: Boris

"And why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?"


Probably for the same reason that you want to believe we came from swap sludge ;) (and no I don't want to get into a big "where did I come from" debate. Apart from saying that you were not there, I was not there and the whole thing hinges on others subjective hypothesises and research and description, and not our own first hand "subjective" experience).

People believe things, Boris try's to back his up with facts according to human intelligence, wisdom and science (and does a pretty good job of it), others according to superstition, others according to faith. Faith is a word used to describe things that go beyond our human understanding and knowledge, things that reflect the character and nature of the God that we Christians profess to be real. Faith is the word used to account for events and happenings that seem to have NO humanly logical or scientifically verifiable cause. Faith is the belief in that which is unseen and unproved by mans means. If it was proven or shown to be real then one would not need faith. Logically just because it can't be proven does not mean that it does not exist, it just means we can not prove scientifically while we live what we in our hearts believe and know to be true.

Now I could go on and cite many Bible verses regarding faith and many examples of how faith was used to overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles and near impossible diseases and illness, how faith built nations and lack of it caused their demise. I could come up with examples of peoples lives where the only description of what has happened to them is miraculous. But having been around here for some time I know that Boris, Cris and others will counter with "subjectivity". These cases were individuals own subjective experiences, they may even throw in terms like psychosomatic and some bigger ones that I can't spell to make their arguments seem stronger and more authoritative than whimpy subjective Christian argument and faith. And then there will be the demand for verifiable evidence, of which eye witness accounts will not be acceptable due to that subjectivity thing again. (lucky its not a court of law)

I would tend to agree with them to a point, yes I do think that fallen man who tends to exaggerate how big the fish was that got away can and does colour thing to suit their ideas, causes, beliefs, politics and science even. However I also believe in a God of the miraculous, who can and does carry out unexplainable things that can not be humanly grasped, who can heal the person infected with Aids, who can make a twisted mind clear, who can rebuild brittle and broken bones, who can do these things and then even more. Things that science has no explanation for, things that science would have us believe as impossible but by the very word Faith, Faith in the One who does them, well then they become possible. And why? So that His grace towards mankind can be seen but not explained by the wisdom or knowledge of man.

I think in my first post ever here I said that I could not prove God to you, I can't. But I can share with you the proof of Him in my life, as subjective as you may want to call it is my proof of Him and mine alone. I can not prove God to you and no human can, they can only share with you what it is that God has done in them, only God can prove Himself to you and only you can let Him, one on one, no gimmicks, no flashing lights, no swish speakers, no fancy props. The little bit of irony though from a humanistic stance is that it requires that little sticking point to let Him, FAITH - Believing in that which is unseen, unprovable, unmeasurable for it to become real to you. Its the only proof you'll get this side of eternity, that is if your game? Because when it does become real it shatters so many illusions, concepts and ideas that one could have about themself and that which surrounds them. It shakes you to your core and then some more, if you want the truth.

So to RedCat keep believing, for without faith it is impossible to please God. For Boris, Cris, Tiassa, Mooncat, Searcher and others try believing and then by Gods grace you will see things differently, don't believe in mans ideas about God but go direct and find out for yourself who He is. But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log. We so often discuss being narrow minded around here, having a closed mind to what others think and believe. Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality, hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?

Allcare

Tony H2o
 
H2O-

I think you'll find that we do not want to try to believe in God because we find the whole concept ridiculous.

What we do like to do is to argue the point that faith is not in itself a good thing. The 20th century was one of total war - a good part of that due to 'faith' - Palestine and Israel are just about to kick off again and it just seems silly to me. Faith got the Waco clan exterminated, has caused numerous mass suicides and religious persecution that has spanned millennia.

I would in fact say that faith in the Almighty is a bad thing, not only a wasted effort but one that leaves an individual feeble-minded and removes that person's responsibility for his or her own ethics and morality. It provides an unreasonable framework to judge others and elevates petty individuals to a false belief of superiority. I have had people who I would rank as being worthless individuals claim superiority merely because they would be going to heaven and myself to hell 'because they believe in God'.

At the end of the day I feel superior myself because I decided that it was far better to believe in something credible and responsible (such as atheism and science) rather than something at best pointless and at worst irresponsible (such as God and Heaven).

I think you and others of your kind should try not believing in God. I find it much more fulfilling spiritually, emotionally and intellectually.

Large Toad.

------------------
God does not exist.
 
Know also that I have utter and total contempt for anyone who might use the "If you believe in God then it doesn't matter if he exists or not because you won't go to hell" argument.

In terms of spinelessness and wilfull neglect of your own potential as a human being no argument matches this for weakness.

You might as well start worshipping UFOs just so that they can ship you off when nuclear armageddon occurs.
 
One more thing (and I hope this makes sense to you):

It's clear to me that every Christian must concede that their God might be a fake.

You see, Allah could have been having a laugh and decided to fool lots of people by inventing an alter-ego and making those people worship a 'holy cow', the Christian God.
Or a Hindu deity could have done the same.
Or an Other-worldly malevolent force.
Or some aliens on UFO's.

The suggestion is that if someone posits that a divine force (esp. an omnipotent one) exists then they must also concede that that force can make them believe whatever it wants them to.
If they concede that this force can make them believe whatever it wants them to then they must concede that their faith is subject to another's whim and therefore has the potential to be unsound.

Therefore any divine theory suffers from inherent***

oh bugger - I've just been laid off - I have some things to sort out. This is so funny. Maybe God is trying to punish me for my wilful blasphemy. Sorry, anyone else want to carry on my thread of argument feel free. Later guys.

SHIT.

***

------------------
God does not exist.
 
"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Consider the first sentence. In plain English, it translates to, 'Nothing you can say can convince me that I am wrong.'"

I couldn't get your link to load. Anyway, your position demands an absolute belief in one or another direction of thought. Descartes, as mentioned in Emerald's link, recognized the weakness of our human condition. I think reason is a subjective thing, and rightly so. It is subjected to individual perceptions. We can't define boundries which offer any certainty where God exist because we are not gods.

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

Genesis/Darwin. If you believe the "Scriptural record" as being spiritual fact, all other evidence in contradiction is deception. I would rather give biblical history its place with respect to those people who percieved life as a spiritual existence, and who experienced it as such. If we are to believe that the Bible is an analytical observation of metaphysical reality, then all other contradictions to this observed truth must be false. In contrast, logical positivism asserts that, since a blind man can't see light, then light must not exist.

Again, our observations (evidence) is SUBJECTED to human reasoning. If we believe in "scriptural record," would it be reasonable to associate apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, with a false perception--the Devil's work?

------------------
It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited February 12, 2001).]
 
LT,

"oh bugger - I've just been laid off - I have some things to sort out."

Been there. Done that. I just started a new job two week ago. Maybe Cris can lead us in a prayer for the economy. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

------------------
It's all very large.
 
Prayer? Prayer? Don't start me on that. Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers.
 
Cris--

A prayer:

Dear Lord, please take back your Dubya and let our economy get back to its business. In the name of profit and prosperity almighty ... Amen.

Or,

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my job to keep.
If I get fired before I wake,
I pray the Lord George-Dubya to take.

Why I'm so hard on the Dubya

First, we know from history that economic melodrama is a purely psychological issue. Watch any company that goes in this current--um ...--"recession". My heart would bleed for them, except that I work for an insurance company that has been bleeding out the ears for about three years at least, now, and every week I'm surprised to see that people are still throwing their money away on our stock.

Consider, for instance, how many times the "tech bubble" burst since '95. Most of those collapses have come during times when major players were in between product. For instance: everybody who had a 286 had to get a 486. Those computers were okay, but eventually had to be replaced by P-2's (I'm thinking on a corporate-infrastructural level.) So every company starts replacing equipment. That demand lessens, but a Windows or other software product picks up the lag. It's just that we're right in between huge products right now. Everyone knows about Intel's P4/1.4/400 that you need to wait another generation before you start replacing your P-350's. Of course the chip isn't selling as fast as execs or industry analysts would like, but this is known. Microsoft's .NET is some time from release. We won't have 100,000,000 copies of .NET shipping across our fair country anytime soon.

Take my own industry--insurance. On the one hand, companies are fighting to reduce governmental safety regulations. To the other, more and more insurance is required by law, policy, or other binding contractual necessity. (eg--automobile, forced-placement for home loans, multiple levels of professional liability) As insurers use the number of disasters, accidents, and so forth as justification for their bad numbers, we have to consider that if certain regulations were in place, the risks involved wouldn't be so potentially hurtful. On top of it all, the fact that insurance is mandated creates a regulatory nightmare that prevents companies from gouging customers with their rates in order to recover the losses. (This does not mean, of course, that gouging does not occur; anyone who's been force-placed for a home-loan knows this.)

So sure, we've got an industry between upswings (tech), and a key industry turning south (insurance), and so forth. This is not at all different from the last several years, except there's some bozo up in the White House hollering, "Recession! Recession!"

I hope you all realize what Bush's recession is for: he now needs make no economic progress compared to the state of the empire on the day of his inauguration. If Bush emerges from his first four years with absolutely zero economic growth, he will be re-elected.

About the middle of January, I read an AP article discussing the efforts of some economists to counter the notion that there was a recession. The signs weren't there, they said. Everything showed potential for normal progress.

And then Time magazine ran its cover story: How to survive the recession, and it was all over. The economists, knowing recession psychology, have switched from prevention to control, and may actually have to switch from theories of control to theories of recovery. And all so that a Republican of questionable capability gets another four years. Now that's foresight.

* Uh-oh! New home sales are slipping; it must mean the economy's falling apart. No ... it simply means that of the people buying new homes, more of them are into their homes than there are looking.

* Prices in my local Albertson's supermarket did not go up 5-10% on January 1, 2001. The prices at my local supermarket rose on January 21, 2001.

Rough hit about the jobs, though. Best hopes wherever needed. To that end, I'll even note that, working in a service job, when my corporation folds, I'll be one of the last ones out the door.

Gotta run. That's all folks. That sort of thing.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
"Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers."

Sexual intercourse looks pretty stupid too, but it's still a popular sport.

------------------
It's all very large.
 
Originally posted by Bowser:
Sexual intercourse looks pretty stupid too, but it's still a popular sport.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is that you think prayer is like sex right?

Ah ha, now I'm beginning to understand the Christian mentality.
 
Cris--

Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it is merely my ignorance, but I find myself obliged to protest the above statement.

As I recall, talking to your flowers, unlike talking to God, actually has a measurable result.

Of course, I was wrong about the lemmings, so who knows? ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
God is a paradox. Only paradox can make God do everything, which includes making the possible impossible, and making the impossible possible. This also implys that God is all knowing, all good, and all mighty, along with the facts that God is also a fool, all evil and powerless.

Another way to think of God is mulitplying zero with infinity.
 
Tiassa,

A very cursory search on talking to plants, no one seems to talk to flowers, at least I couldn’t find any web references.

Here is possibly a scientific viewpoint - When you talk to plants, you release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, where plants take this in and utilize it.

So really just get up close and personal and breath on them.

Another note I found –

I keep on telling those weeds to get out of my garden or I'll rip them up. They refuse to move. What do you think about them?

1. Need hearing aids.
2. Are excessively arrogant and stubborn.
3. Don't have ears.

I guess my real point was that since plants have no brain-like system to interpret your words then they aren’t going to understand you. And prayer is just the same as talking to an imaginary thing which also does not have any brain-like system, so that again is a futile activity.

Now if we are talking about making people feel better then there are many very productive meditation techniques that will do a far superior job and where the benefits are very definitely documented.

The futility of the actions, prayer and flower talk, was that there is nothing there that will understand what you are saying.

But, hey, I could be wrong as well, maybe.

Cris
 
Cris--

I keep on telling those weeds to get out of my garden or I'll rip them up. They refuse to move. What do you think about them?
Click to expand...

Try jazz?

Actually, in the end, it's probably bogus research, but I do remember, as part of the rock and roll wars, a number of studies designed to show that rock and roll was bad for humans. As I recall, this idea was followed shortly by a fad which declared that Bach was good for the plants.

Thus, I'll back the CO2 theory, and also suggest that you hire a Welsh boys' choir.

But in the end, the plants are smart enough to know when to grow or not.

;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
Whoops.

The futility of the actions, prayer and flower talk, was that there is nothing there that will understand what you are saying.
Click to expand...

I should second that, as well. Maybe talking to your marijuana is the only observable result: "C'mon, baby ... Daddy wants to smoke you."

Dunno, a lot of dealers I know talk to their plants, but I always figured they thought the plants were talking back.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
 
going back to largetoad's posts for a sec...

Yes I agree religion has cause many wars that don't seem to have a major impact. However many things have come as a result of religion: The fall of Rome was largely due to the spread of Christianity, The colonization of America by the English (puritans wanting to get away from the English Church.) And also the little wars could add up like evolution, many small changes little by little.

As for plants and music, I don't go for the CO2 concept.
1) those experiments usually use sterios.
2) already enough around.
I go for the idea that the vibrations of the music somehow stimulate/stunt the growth. Rock & Roll vs Classical sorta like Milk vs Beer. ;)

But I wouldn't know about the beer thing, I do drink approximately .7 gallons of milk a day though.

Anyhow back to my latin homework, and then to pray, oh wait yeah prayer, reason:
Cause since I have faith in God I gotta:
1) Let him know I thank him for my advantages
2) Ask him for his help sometimes.
3) Ask him to help others.
4) Just to share my feelings at times.
5) Because at that time I know he will listen.
6) Let him in my heart.

and if ya don't think thats reason enough, then your probably asking why. Well, my answer is simple: Because! :)

-RedCat the allmighty latin student, yeah right.
---------------------------------------------
I do what I do because I do.
Why?
Because!
 
Quote Toad

"I think you'll find that we do not want to try to believe in God because we find the whole concept ridiculous.

What we do like to do is to argue the point that faith is not in itself a good thing. The 20th century was one of total war - a good part of that due to 'faith' - Palestine and Israel are just about to kick off again and it just seems silly to me. Faith got the Waco clan exterminated, has caused numerous mass suicides and religious persecution that has spanned millennia.

I would in fact say that faith in the Almighty is a bad thing, not only a wasted effort but one that leaves an individual feeble-minded and removes that person's responsibility for his or her own ethics and morality. It provides an unreasonable framework to judge others and elevates petty individuals to a false belief of superiority. I have had people who I would rank as being worthless individuals claim superiority merely because they would be going to heaven and myself to hell 'because they believe in God'."

Hi Toad,

Thanks for the response, I've been down this road about the evils of faith a number of times with others here and for the sake of sanity do not wish to get into a long drawn out debate about it.

I would however like to make a distinction, Faith in itself IS a good thing. I think what you wrote should have said religion in itself is not a good thing. Then we would perfectly agree, as religion is mans way of organising , developing, marshalling etc faith. It creates an environment that is perfect for fanatics to carry out acts of brutality, abuse, immorality and worse all in the name of the one that it claims to serve. The sad and shocking reality that will confront each of us at the close of time is that so many things that we claim to have done in the name of this god that god and the other were in actual fact never asked of us, never condoned by God and never sanctioned by Him. This reminds me of a Bible verse in Matthew 25 (I think) where Jesus talks about the close of time and says that on that day many will come say but Lord we did this, that and the other in your name, then He will say to them get away from me for I never knew you. We did this, we did that, its what we as humans do to each other supposedly in the name of God when God has had no say in it. We presume that this action is justified that that course of action is sanctified just because we were a religious label??? And the end result is that people like you Toad end up wit a bent view of what Jesus was all about and who God truly is. No surprises there hey?

So the distinction should be fairly clear by now, I don't like religion! But I love God, I love my saviour and Lord Jesus, I love taking the time to try to understand with my limited abilities what He truly stood for, what He really came to achieve and why. The distinction is that faith, true faith, not a word that is bandied about to fit ones belief system but true faith. This kind of faith brings about the will and purpose of God through the lives of those who live in it and respond to it through love. This faith brings life where there was none, healing where there were scares, and peace in the midst of the turmoil that surrounds us in a world of trouble.

I agree with you Toad, so much said and done in His name when the truth is that He never said to do any of it. His instructions are simple, faith is not a complex tangled web of rules and regulations, its a lifestyle.

So I'm sorry if someone has said or done something that has shown you differently, I'm sorry for the examples that you cite and that have occurred throughout history, I'm sorry and saddened by the way these events can rob a person of having a wonderful understanding and relationship with God. I'm sorry Toad but there is nothing I can do about it, it has happened and will continue to happen. Somehow I know though that God sees this and a part of Him understands this, understands how these things present an obstacle to people like you and I who are limited in our understanding of things that happen in a spiritual realm, in a place outside of our vision and senses.

BTW I have not always believed what I now believe, as incredible as it is. I have not always believed in God.....but that's another chapter.

Quote Toad:

"The suggestion is that if someone posits that a divine force (esp. an omnipotent one) exists then they must also concede that that force can make them believe whatever it wants them to.
If they concede that this force can make them believe whatever it wants them to then they must concede that their faith is subject to another's whim and therefore has the potential to be unsound."

Firstly sorry to hear you got laid off, hope you get a new job soon.

To respond to your last two posts is difficult, essentially what I see in your words is that an all powerful being could make us be and believe what ever it wanted us to.

Yes and No, yes an all powerful being would have the power and authority to do that. No it would not because with authority and power comes a responsibility. A responsibility to act in a way that ensures the best possible outcome, a responsibility to be true to standards set by no higher authority, a responsibility to be true to its own character and nature by which that all powerful being applies judgement, for that judgement begins with that being.

What I am saying is that God the God that I believe in is a God who is true and just according to the highest standards set by the highest authority - His own. He must act and He must behave according to how his very character and nature dictate. The standards that He is governed by are without fault and as such prevent Him from acting or behaving in a way that would bring deceit, His ways are truth, His ways are not hidden in mystical acts or in shrouded in secrecy, they are open and accountable.

As such we must judge according to those standards, Jesus said the same He spoke of mans judgement as corrupted, He inspired people to judge by incorruptible standards - Gods standards. How? By taking the time and showing the wisdom to look beyond the narrow blinkered vision that we so often have. To attempt to see things from a divine perspective, to look at the whole and not just the parts that appeal to us as individuals.

Gods truth is there, yes there is a sea of alternatives and imitations, a sea of confusion and deceit, a sea of seemingly endless horizon of directions to move in. But there is only one direction that will lead to safe haven. Find that and you find life, discover that truth and you discover your place in eternity.

God did not make the sea of confusion or the stew of delusion. He made the truth and its only the truth can set us free.

Quote: daktaklakpak

"God is a paradox. Only paradox can make God do everything, which includes making the possible impossible, and making the impossible possible. This also implys that God is all knowing, all good, and all mighty, along with the facts that God is also a fool, all evil and powerless.
Another way to think of God is mulitplying zero with infinity."

Maths aside for a moment, what paradox do you see?

Can a camel go through the eye of a needle? With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible for those that believe.

Back to the numbers, another way to look at this is to pick a number between 0 and 1. Divide it by another number, divide it again, and again, and again.....repeat infinite. Result = you still have a number and an infinite number of numbers between two fix constraints, correct?

Well God is like that, He is constrained by His very character and nature to act and behave in a particular manner and way yet He and His abilities are also infinite between those constraints. God and God alone sets the boundaries by which He is contained, I would suggest that these boundaries are found in His character and nature, in the very attributes that make Him who He is and that dictate how He must react in any given situation. It almost sounds illogical, but proves logical even mathematically. We could spend hours talking about this and relating it back to many Biblical principles and stories like the fall of Lucifer and man etc. Supposed atrocities, supposed contradictions.............. etc. From mans perspective some of these things do appear ....well unusual on the surface, however when you dig deeper and attempt to grasp the weight of what was occurring on a grander scale, an eternal perspective, a divine perspective and in light of the Divine Ones character it makes sense. Unfortunately though my boss pays me to work not just preach and pray for pay ;) and so maybe some other time we can discuss this in more detail.................back to the grind.


Allcare

Tony H2o
 
The paradox comes in may ways. One exmple is God can do anything, but does it include making Himself un-God? This can be quite fatal if God is not in a paradox state. Only a paradox can unite all the conflicting states.

Who say that a Camel can never cross the eye of a needle? It can't by now, but no one can promise it won't in the future. And from a mathematical point of view, a Camel can pass through anything just by invoking an extra dimension over our 3-D space.

0 to 1 is an bad example, because that means God can't do things that described by number greater than 1. Negative infinity to positive infinity is better. It includes all the possible numbers. But it also creates a problem, because infinity is undefined, so does that imply God is undefined, too?

Here is another paradox state for God: God exists in everywhere, yet can't be found in anywhere.
 
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