God does not exist.
- Thread starter LargeToad
- Start date
I totally agree.
But you might receive some objections to your claim unless you can prove it or show good reason. Many will say that it is not possible to prove that something doesn't exist since we are not yet capable of searching every corner of the universe.
You are in danger of appearing as irrational as those theists who claim that a god does exist but also cannot prove their claim.
The onus of proof usually lies with the person making the claim. So in this case, since you have made a claim, with which I do agree, it would behove you to state why you think your claim is true.
BTW welcome to the debate.
Have fun
Cris
But you might receive some objections to your claim unless you can prove it or show good reason. Many will say that it is not possible to prove that something doesn't exist since we are not yet capable of searching every corner of the universe.
You are in danger of appearing as irrational as those theists who claim that a god does exist but also cannot prove their claim.
The onus of proof usually lies with the person making the claim. So in this case, since you have made a claim, with which I do agree, it would behove you to state why you think your claim is true.
BTW welcome to the debate.
Have fun
Cris
I recall once, seeing the Christian teeny-bopper performer Carman trying to make a point about God, using a red rubber ball.
Once we admit that "God" is a human-invented word, it can be whatever we define it. If I see "God" in a red rubber ball; it's a little tougher to declare that the red rubber ball isn't there.
But, failing that silly version of logic, I wouldn't presume to try.
I'll second Cris on the onus of proof, though. And another second on the Welcome to Exosci.
thanx,
Tiassa
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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
Once we admit that "God" is a human-invented word, it can be whatever we define it. If I see "God" in a red rubber ball; it's a little tougher to declare that the red rubber ball isn't there.
But, failing that silly version of logic, I wouldn't presume to try.
I'll second Cris on the onus of proof, though. And another second on the Welcome to Exosci.
thanx,
Tiassa
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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
tiassa,
At least we can see, feel, and hear (when bounced), a red rubber ball. So if a physical manifestation of a god is preposterous then consider the alternative claims: Invisible (ah ha not red then?), immaterial (not rubber either), silent (no bouncing allowed, definitely no fun).
Now compare that definition to 'nothingness', which is also invisible, immaterial, and silent.
Gosh what a coincidence, perhaps god equals nothing.
So now I guess we must decide to what extent does nothing exist.
Have fun
Cris
At least we can see, feel, and hear (when bounced), a red rubber ball. So if a physical manifestation of a god is preposterous then consider the alternative claims: Invisible (ah ha not red then?), immaterial (not rubber either), silent (no bouncing allowed, definitely no fun).
Now compare that definition to 'nothingness', which is also invisible, immaterial, and silent.
Gosh what a coincidence, perhaps god equals nothing.
So now I guess we must decide to what extent does nothing exist.
Have fun
Cris
It seems to me that Judaism, in its later Qabalist form at least, had no problem with this.
But, as relates Christianity proper ... isn't that the rhetorical confoundment that got the philosophy into this sad situation in the first place?
thanx,
Tiassa
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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)
I agree with Cris that you gotta show proof of him not existing, but since there is no possible way to prove that he does/doesn't exist why do many people belive in him? Because we have faith, faith being that you believe in something that cannot be proven.
Now you COULD say that you have faith that God doesn't exist, but then again that means God is nothing, not anything. There is no way of proving whether or not God exists (as of yet, if ever we can.)
So you either have faith in God, or you accept that other people do believe in God.
Prove me wrong if you can. =)
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What is Time?
Now you COULD say that you have faith that God doesn't exist, but then again that means God is nothing, not anything. There is no way of proving whether or not God exists (as of yet, if ever we can.)
So you either have faith in God, or you accept that other people do believe in God.
Prove me wrong if you can. =)
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What is Time?
RedCat,
I'm secretly hoping that LargeToad might have a new novel idea to show that gods do not exist. But I have doubts.
But yes it is possible to show that a god does not exist. The logic involves showing that a god cannot exist. Once that is achieved then non-existence must follow.
One needs to show a paradox of the form: A vehicle that can travel both north and south at the same time. Such an enity cannot exist.
The problem lies with the definition of the god in question. The temptation for the claimant will be that he will heap loads of super superlatives onto his definition, and therin lies the defeat. Such super properties can be mutually exclusive and hence the defintion can result in a paradox -an impossibility.
My favorite is the Christian god and its commonly accepted property of omniscience. Christians also claim that their god has created lfeforms that have free will. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. Perfect knowledge of all future events is identical to pre-determination, i.e. the opposite of free will. This paradox effectively means that the Christian god as defined cannot exist and therefore does not exist.
But other gods might be defined differently and so each much be considered based on the claims made for it.
Have fun.
Cris
[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 09, 2001).]
I'm secretly hoping that LargeToad might have a new novel idea to show that gods do not exist. But I have doubts.
But yes it is possible to show that a god does not exist. The logic involves showing that a god cannot exist. Once that is achieved then non-existence must follow.
One needs to show a paradox of the form: A vehicle that can travel both north and south at the same time. Such an enity cannot exist.
The problem lies with the definition of the god in question. The temptation for the claimant will be that he will heap loads of super superlatives onto his definition, and therin lies the defeat. Such super properties can be mutually exclusive and hence the defintion can result in a paradox -an impossibility.
My favorite is the Christian god and its commonly accepted property of omniscience. Christians also claim that their god has created lfeforms that have free will. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. Perfect knowledge of all future events is identical to pre-determination, i.e. the opposite of free will. This paradox effectively means that the Christian god as defined cannot exist and therefore does not exist.
But other gods might be defined differently and so each much be considered based on the claims made for it.
Have fun.
Cris
[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 09, 2001).]
boris,
ok, well...why not believe in something if it doesn't hurt you to believe in it, however if it exist it could hurt you not to? Though I guess that wouldn't really be believing in it, would it. Oh well thats what I get for having gone to a Christian school for 8 years. One of my teachers had said if you don't believe in God and there is a hell then it would be bad, if there isn't a God and there is no hell its fine (therefore you have a 50-50 chance.) however if there is a God and a hell and you believe in God, he can save you, if you believe in God and there is no hell, everything is fine (therefore a 100% chance.) Just a bit of useless knowlage about me. =)
Anyhow can we prove we have a purpose in life, can we prove that our life is not pre-determined, can we prove we arn't controlled be an omnipotent power, can we prove that time travel can or can't be achieved, can we prove that there won't be a masiah <sp?>?
NO, we have faith that we have a purpose, that our life isn't pre-determined, that time travel does exist, and that there will be a masiah<sp?> (depending on ones beliefs of course.)
Hope I am not mistaken too much this time.
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What is Time?
[This message has been edited by RedCat (edited February 09, 2001).]
ok, well...why not believe in something if it doesn't hurt you to believe in it, however if it exist it could hurt you not to? Though I guess that wouldn't really be believing in it, would it. Oh well thats what I get for having gone to a Christian school for 8 years. One of my teachers had said if you don't believe in God and there is a hell then it would be bad, if there isn't a God and there is no hell its fine (therefore you have a 50-50 chance.) however if there is a God and a hell and you believe in God, he can save you, if you believe in God and there is no hell, everything is fine (therefore a 100% chance.) Just a bit of useless knowlage about me. =)
Anyhow can we prove we have a purpose in life, can we prove that our life is not pre-determined, can we prove we arn't controlled be an omnipotent power, can we prove that time travel can or can't be achieved, can we prove that there won't be a masiah <sp?>?
NO, we have faith that we have a purpose, that our life isn't pre-determined, that time travel does exist, and that there will be a masiah<sp?> (depending on ones beliefs of course.)
Hope I am not mistaken too much this time.
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What is Time?
[This message has been edited by RedCat (edited February 09, 2001).]
RedCat,
What can I say... prepare to be gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire
First of all, the question of hurt/no hurt. I should think that any mindset that impedes your understanding or exploration of the universe is hurtful. Furthermore, any conviction which makes you susceptible to arbitrary authority and therefore makes a convenient marionette out of you, is hurtful. Then, any belief that forces you into a constant struggle to reconcile paradoxes and contradictions is hurtful because it drains your time and energy on specious things. And of course, I'd say any belief that you are not in full control of your own life, but must instead depend on some mythical helper -- is fundamentally hurtful. This is not to forget all the damage that has been historically caused by the religious mob. Ok, I could keep going on this topic for quite some time, but we have to move on...
The argument that you can't go wrong believing in God...ridiculous. What of the possibility that Spooky (a hypothetical entity) is the real god, and would condemn you to eternal torture if you believe in a god other than Spooky (that includes Yahweh.) Of course, you have to keep in mind the odd chance that Smoky (another hypothetical entity) would punish you unbelievably if you have faith in any god whatsoever. So much for playing it safe, eh? Considering the number of existing religions in the world (not even mentioning all the dead religions, as well as the yet-unborn ones), it is just a little odd that you choose to fear (or have faith in) the Christian god any more than the umptillion other gods imaginable and unimaginable. Considering this reality, you must agree that it is absolutely impossible for an unbiased person to prefer one religion over any other (in fact, I dare claim an unbiased person would readily observe that all religions are mere cultural artifacts.) So, since you made a choice, you have to consider the source of your bias. Your "faith" is only as well-founded and justified as the odd chance that you be indoctrinated with one religion as opposed to another.
P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow!
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I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 09, 2001).]
What can I say... prepare to be gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire
First of all, the question of hurt/no hurt. I should think that any mindset that impedes your understanding or exploration of the universe is hurtful. Furthermore, any conviction which makes you susceptible to arbitrary authority and therefore makes a convenient marionette out of you, is hurtful. Then, any belief that forces you into a constant struggle to reconcile paradoxes and contradictions is hurtful because it drains your time and energy on specious things. And of course, I'd say any belief that you are not in full control of your own life, but must instead depend on some mythical helper -- is fundamentally hurtful. This is not to forget all the damage that has been historically caused by the religious mob. Ok, I could keep going on this topic for quite some time, but we have to move on...
The argument that you can't go wrong believing in God...ridiculous. What of the possibility that Spooky (a hypothetical entity) is the real god, and would condemn you to eternal torture if you believe in a god other than Spooky (that includes Yahweh.) Of course, you have to keep in mind the odd chance that Smoky (another hypothetical entity) would punish you unbelievably if you have faith in any god whatsoever. So much for playing it safe, eh? Considering the number of existing religions in the world (not even mentioning all the dead religions, as well as the yet-unborn ones), it is just a little odd that you choose to fear (or have faith in) the Christian god any more than the umptillion other gods imaginable and unimaginable. Considering this reality, you must agree that it is absolutely impossible for an unbiased person to prefer one religion over any other (in fact, I dare claim an unbiased person would readily observe that all religions are mere cultural artifacts.) So, since you made a choice, you have to consider the source of your bias. Your "faith" is only as well-founded and justified as the odd chance that you be indoctrinated with one religion as opposed to another.
P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow!
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I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 09, 2001).]
RedCat,
A little bit more on hurt.
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.
Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.
It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.
Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.
There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.
A little bit more on hurt.
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.
Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.
It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.
Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.
There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.
RedCat,
You might like to know that the idea that believing in a god is a good bet is more commonly known as Pascal's Wager. For a somehwhat extensive discussion on this issue follow this link -
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
Apart from the objections that Boris has stated, like which god is the correct one to follow then there is the question of whether the god selected will believe you.
We must assume that any worthwhile god would be able to see through any deception and any insincerity. If you said you only believed in him because it was a safe bet then surely you would be summarily dismissed.
If you really want to believe in something then it seems worthwhile having some real deeply considered, and sound reasons.
Have fun
Cris
You might like to know that the idea that believing in a god is a good bet is more commonly known as Pascal's Wager. For a somehwhat extensive discussion on this issue follow this link -
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
Apart from the objections that Boris has stated, like which god is the correct one to follow then there is the question of whether the god selected will believe you.
We must assume that any worthwhile god would be able to see through any deception and any insincerity. If you said you only believed in him because it was a safe bet then surely you would be summarily dismissed.
If you really want to believe in something then it seems worthwhile having some real deeply considered, and sound reasons.
Have fun
Cris
Cris, thats not why I believe in God, just had random thoughts about my life, but anyhow,
****P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow! ****
well now think of what happens if those 3,000,000 gods suddenly are proven to not exist, i'm not sure anyone would like the responsibility of telling the millions of believers the truth and showing the proof, because more than likely there will still be many that will see to it that the proof is distroyed and keep the religion alive, and others that will fight for thier god and then the world goes into turmoil, and countries are torn between religions and split. Then wars break out and maybe lead to nucular war. *shrugs* just a thought
I admit there isn't any safe way to believe in a god with the possibility of unlimited gods existing, however niether is not believing so it should't matter whether you do or don't believe, exept to yourself of course.
-Red "gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire" Cat
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What is Time?
****P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow! ****
well now think of what happens if those 3,000,000 gods suddenly are proven to not exist, i'm not sure anyone would like the responsibility of telling the millions of believers the truth and showing the proof, because more than likely there will still be many that will see to it that the proof is distroyed and keep the religion alive, and others that will fight for thier god and then the world goes into turmoil, and countries are torn between religions and split. Then wars break out and maybe lead to nucular war. *shrugs* just a thought
I admit there isn't any safe way to believe in a god with the possibility of unlimited gods existing, however niether is not believing so it should't matter whether you do or don't believe, exept to yourself of course.
-Red "gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire" Cat
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What is Time?
Cris,
Thanks for the link! Here's another, which I find a bit easier to follow: <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/pascal.htm">Pascal's Wager</a>. From that same site, here is a list of <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/arguindex.htm#theist">Theistic and Atheistic Arguments</a>.
Enjoy!
Emerald
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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Thanks for the link! Here's another, which I find a bit easier to follow: <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/pascal.htm">Pascal's Wager</a>. From that same site, here is a list of <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/arguindex.htm#theist">Theistic and Atheistic Arguments</a>.
Enjoy!
Emerald
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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Emerald,
Yes a good link. Many thanks. I did have another link for Pascals Wager that was similarly an easy read but I guess I didn't make a bookmark - nuts - oh well.
The Positive Atheism site is pretty good, hadn't seen that before. I continue in wonder at my incredible ignorance of things that are readily available.
I grabbed a couple of quotes that seem relevant for this thread.
There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel.... Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating the divine authority of those books?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Take care
Cris
Yes a good link. Many thanks. I did have another link for Pascals Wager that was similarly an easy read but I guess I didn't make a bookmark - nuts - oh well.
The Positive Atheism site is pretty good, hadn't seen that before. I continue in wonder at my incredible ignorance of things that are readily available.
I grabbed a couple of quotes that seem relevant for this thread.
There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel.... Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating the divine authority of those books?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Take care
Cris
Cris,
Great quotes! The second one brings something else to mind. If you use a Strong's Concordance to look up the word "cross", this is what you'll see:
4716 stauros {stow-ros'}
from the base of 2476; TDNT - 7:572,1071; n m
AV - cross 28; 28
1) a cross
1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the
time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
1b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
2) an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or palisades
Could it be that in the original story, the intent was to have Jesus executed by means of impalement?
I'm glad you enjoyed the website.
Emerald
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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Great quotes! The second one brings something else to mind. If you use a Strong's Concordance to look up the word "cross", this is what you'll see:
4716 stauros {stow-ros'}
from the base of 2476; TDNT - 7:572,1071; n m
AV - cross 28; 28
1) a cross
1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the
time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
1b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
2) an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or palisades
Could it be that in the original story, the intent was to have Jesus executed by means of impalement?
I'm glad you enjoyed the website.
Emerald
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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
RedCat,
The kabob thing was only my way of extending a warm welcome to hell...
And so after all that, we come back to the original question regarding your faith:
why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?
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I am; therefore I think.
The kabob thing was only my way of extending a warm welcome to hell...
And so after all that, we come back to the original question regarding your faith:
why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?
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I am; therefore I think.
"not even gonna go there, cause your just gonna come back with historical events that took place that lead to the original beliefs in gods that were mearly ideas to explain how everything came to be, or something of that such. Seen ya do it before."
Yes, Genesis: "In the beginning..."
I feel that faith is often the product of strong belief which is motivated by human intuition maybe.
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It's all very large.
Yes, Genesis: "In the beginning..."
I feel that faith is often the product of strong belief which is motivated by human intuition maybe.
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It's all very large.