I was going to put this thread to rest thinking you atheists won't get it but I hate to lose hope in anyone not understanding where I or others are coming from who believe in a single, unifying entity. And apparently a good bit of time was put in for the replies so I won't ignore them. But we are all linked in some way and all interdependent as seemingly one unified complex machine, if you will, although I don't like to use that term since especially the hardcore believers in God don't like to depersonalized things.
1. Complexity does NOT equate to intelligence. It might well be a requirement for intelligence - but does not equate, by itself, to intelligence.
At the root, it's very simple. A simple set of boolean functions merged together to create a complexity. Perhaps those functions aren't merged to act as complex or intelligent but to keep the "intelligent" sustained. Perhaps we view the muscle cell as unintelligent but yet, it is somewhat complex in layers. The muscle cells, in themself, sustains the neurons by the obvious, as a collective, to hunt and feed the body. The Earth could be considered one big rock, unintelligent, but complex, yet it sustains what you will call "intelligent" and one big machine which is interdependent on each component. The Earth is dependent on life to keep it as it is and we are dependent on the Earth to keep us as we are.
2. The universe, as a whole, has not evolved - and has no need to evolve. It exists. It is all. Just as a creature does not evolve in any way in its lifetime, so this Universe has never evolved. It requires reproduction to evolve - and an environment in which to sit.
Yes, the universe changes every day, second, and so on. It evolves through time. Evolve means to change to adapt for survival or to fit in. No doubt if we didn't evolve in our lifetime and stayed babies, mankind wouldn't be here. Evolution is simply change, or specifically change advantageous to sustaining a being if speaking of life.
Cris, to me, belief in God is not really necessary but you realize that we are all part of something great, we are the universe, all working in unison and that there is no waste, no human without purpose, we should take care of the earth and each other to be healthy as we are all one unified complex machine. You realize the importance of the smallest creatures/things and the largest.
As an obvious computer science student...
No CC, I'm not in computer science. I have had computer oriented classes before but still have a common, ordinary, non-computer oriented job. Although I have 10 years experience using them, what drew me as a kid was subconsciously I kind of felt it amazing that raw, mathematical data from the universe could be taken and put into the machine, giving sometimes a very accurate prediction of what is going to happen. Although in a much simpler scope as a kid. You sort of realize the implications it holds.
Do I need to say why it's ignorant to say everyone has the same beliefs or does exactly the same thing, ie, to generalize?
There is so much sacrafice of logic and knowledge in that statement it's "unbelievable", but I'll chalk that up to a pretty hefty failure of the educational system.
If you see it a failure, perhaps a failure for me to argue for others and to get into the philosophical view of it. Others believe God can't be seen, which I don't, I believe God is all around us.
I believe the zaboombafoo dimension exists and it's diving inhabitants, the parelian thor, guides us to prosperty if we're willing to listen. According to your logic, you are going to become very shallow and ignorant in just a moment.
Be hypothetical if you want, but I'm not one to tell you what you see. All I can do is say I don't see it. I have just as much skepticism as anyone but less fervor to debate it. I tend to think of myself for the underdog and in general society, I stand up a lot more for atheists since I know where they're coming from, for the most part, and their marriage to the rational. But here, I'm more fervent on debating the atheists since a lot of people who are religious here are the underdogs. I try to promote understanding of both views as long as a party is willing to open their eyes or ears. There are just as many atheists as theists who don't want to open their eyes and see where the other is coming from.
IMO, the core issue is 'belief' (religious belief that is). It's a method of evaluating assertions as truth based on how it makes people feel. Religion tends to promote this type of evaluation rather than the one that better aligns to reality (i.e. evidence-based thinking).
Should I direct you to a
popular beliefs some atheists hold? How many times is the word belief/believe used there? Which, btw, I could make an entire thread of the contradictions just in that bit of text. Some of it I see as irrational. Can someone show me a religion or moral code that holds up and doesn't seem hypocritical? Some people like to play the hand of having no house so they can try to poke holes in others without fear of retribution of their moral foundation being attacked. The worst thing someone can do who wants to be right all the time is tell someone where they stand so they know which carpet to pull out from under their feet and make them fail. So therefore they try to pull the carpet out from others' feet while leaving others in the dark and not seeing their foundation and the failures of it. Take a stand and make your own belief system then. Be pro-active. We should have constructive criticism here, and not just knock what we don't like or don't think acceptable, but discuss better ways. If you're smart enough to know 2+2 doesn't equal 3, then tell someone the answer or how to get to it then just being critical. It seems there's too much pessimism around here sometimes. I know the frustration in trying to tell close-minded religious zealots the facts of life, that real world science does in fact contradict a lot of religious people's beliefs, but it's much more interesting when it's debated as mature adults, not that you're not. But it seems the world "belief" is seen as a dirty word here. I see it as an educated guess, or educated assumption, if you will. There is no one I know that doesn't have a belief in anything. And the typical atheist view has no foundation for it without a root belief in why we're here. If there is no God, then nothing holds merit other than 'just because I think so' or 'it seems right' which is a belief. It doesn't hold together without some unifying belief in what is right or why we're here. You may say I won't kill because it's not nice. Well why? Because it's not good for my survival or theirs? Then why? Because I think I should survive? Why? So my offspring can? Why? So they can advance? Why? So they can survive? Why? Get it? It's rhetorical? Then I would ask, why not kill yourself since you have no God or purpose here? Then perhaps they say, "well, I guess you got me. There is some purpose for us so I won't kill myself, or loved ones, or others". Then I ask, "So what if you do kill yourself or them, what's going to happen". They say, "well, I don't believe in God so nothing bad other than what they do to me". I say, "So, who's to say your purpose isn't to kill them and why are you scared of what they do to you? Are you scared to die and face your own God's retribution for hurting his creation". They say, "no, just because I believe it's bad". So what God put that in your head that bad can't be good". Nevermind the bad punctuation but I could go on and on, it's so much hypocrisy I hear from both sides because of an apparent lack of thought or interest.
I would hate for my head to be a soup of mixed up thoughts with no real beliefs or direction in life, I've been there. I'm like the kid who asks why to why this or why that and why to those, and so on. Some think they're farther ahead by being farther behind. But sometimes you just have to stop questioning and realize in an infinite universe, there are infinite answers. Once you do, you are farther ahead by being farther behind. Others are only farther ahead in their brain being a soup of infinite unanswered questions but they don't realize and see the end, so they see themselves as intelligent when in fact, the real intelligent ones are the ones who look ahead and see, there is no de facto answer and at some point, you will have to just believe because you will never know. As an agnostic, that was my journey and sort of still is. I still somewhat keep looking to push the boundaries of why's when I'm mischevious but yet, I always come back to God knowing He will always be one step ahead of everyone. We are the proverbial monkey chasing a banana on a stick which is in turn tied to us. You're farther ahead in humbling yourselves and knowing to stop and just asking the one who knows the answer. Degrading the imperfect authors who made holy texts and exclaiming how imperfect they were is like telling a fish it can't walk which is obvious. So who looks the fool?
That's consequently not how the law is. A prosecutor for example has to provide evidence that the defendant is guilty. You have come here with a mountain of claim based on a mountain of belief and the evidence is lacking. There's nothing really to debate except thought process.
I used to be told this by a family member who is into law. In that situation, you're right, but in the sense that if you don't represent yourself or be represented, it's man's nature to assume it's true. As can be with rumors unfortunately.
So as you see, I see the Universe as an intelligent system, or entity. And I call it God. My birther, your birther, and that which lets us be here to nurture our bodies and our thoughts, whether you believe it is a random process or not, it was a complex process of boolean functions. Our complex brain is a sum of a complex change, all at it's heart, simple boolean functions composed of more complex ones while each nurture and interdepend on the other, sustaining a complex system of boolean functions, comprising one intelligent, adaptable being. God is of us all, and for us all. Just as much close to you as is to me. He is cut off from no one and will cut no one off from Him. My beliefs are almost as complex as He is on a minute, detailed scale but as simple as He is when viewed as a whole. And as a whole, that is love. A oneness with everything, completeness, a belonging and realization of where we fit in the scheme of things.
