God and time

[Cyperium]

It seems many beliefs have some similarity here. Now all we have to do is figure out which god is the real one, if any heh.

I guess that's the main problem, there are so many religions. How do we know that our religion is the true one?

This isn't something that I do to make you believe the same as I do. But if you look at it strictly logically, then there are some arguments.

These are not arguments that say that christianity must be the one true religion, but are arguments that I feel are true, if they aren't true then at least I think they are nice ideas and deserve to be taken into consideration.

1: There can only be one God. Why? Cause God is the truth, and there can only be one truth. If there were two Gods, then one God could make a different Truth than the other God. This can't happen, truth itself would become a lie. Cause one truth could contradict another.

2: God is the first. Since God was the first one, He made everything, we could say that God is the first cause. Thus God is perfect, since everything under Him, was created by Him. Unless God created more Gods (which would not be good, because of argument 1). God cannot create something that is as perfect as Himself. Since God was first, then He didn't have anything that could influence Him in any way (though it is said that Wisdom was with Him at the beginning), and since He couldn't be influenced everything He made was according to His plan (and His alone), everything was true.

I believe that there is something special with being the first one. Kind of like if you create a nice picture, if someone else threw in ideas then it wouldn't go along with your first attempt, and thus the picture doesn't get to be it's true self - as you wanted it. Since the picture was first made by you, then any change by anyone else will cause it to become less than what it could be if you continued with it (at least from your point-of-view).

3: God is the last. This is a continuation of argument 2, we can use the same analogy with the picture. If someone else threw in ideas and drew on your picture, then if you are really smart, you could still (at the end) make the picture go along with your original idea, by drawing the necessary things.

2 and 3 are arguments for God being A and O.

4: We believe in a unknown God. By looking at all the religions, we can see that God isn't KNOWN to us, but has rather given us the task of searching for Him. The only way - as I understand it - to know God is through Jesus (as He knows God and are Himself God, a part of the holy trinity).


These are (to my view) logical arguments, and God isn't in these arguments looked at as a old man sitting in the clouds. God in these arguments are...well more or less unknown - we can't make a picture of Him, we can only believe Him, if we want to.


2: I realized that there is a big problem here, and it has been nearly every christian's problem. And that is, who created God? The bible say, that in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, nothing existed without the word and with the word everything existed. So what made the word?

This is of course also a science problem, sorta like "what caused the first cause?".

So, my belief are that the Word was so simple that it created itself from nothing. Though it's a weak belief of mine since I can't imagine how something can create itself from nothing.

Everything is a search for truth, science and religion. I don't think that there should be a war going on between them.

 

[SnakeLord]

1: There can only be one God. Why? Cause God is the truth, and there can only be one truth. If there were two Gods, then one God could make a different Truth than the other God. This can't happen, truth itself would become a lie. Cause one truth could contradict another.

The majority of beliefs throughout history have been polytheistic, which can even be seen in the OT with the whole "let us make man...", and other such quotes. It can also be seen in the whole idea of a trinity, (3). Of course a christian would deny that, more happy to believe they refer to one, while naming 3.

We'd also have to ask why a god wouldn't make other gods. Does he not need companionship or help?

I know many people will say no here. He is god, why would he need companionship or help? There are two responses to this:

A) Before you dismiss it, remember the seraphim, the angels, and other such beings made by god that are above mankind.

B) It depends on how you view this being. If you view him as the ultimate of ultimates- a being that knows everything, can do everything, is everywhere, can see everything etc, then not only must you state there's no reason to make other gods or angels but also absolutely no reason to make humans either.

2: God is the first. Since God was the first one, He made everything, we could say that God is the first cause. Thus God is perfect

The first part of this quote doesn't = the second. Even if we were to assume that a god being was around before everything else, hardly means it's perfect, just old.

You know when I walk outside, I can understand why creationists believe what they do. I don't agree with their conclusions because it isn't based upon understanding, but the lack thereof - but I can see why they believe what they do.

Flowers don't have brains. How would a flower know bees exist? Yet without the bee, the flower wouldn't survive, and without the flower the bee wouldn't survive.

It does all appear so uniformed, so co-ordinated - everything from the worms that fertilise the soil to the tall tree providing oxygen to the world.

In all of this there is one distinct flaw. Can you guess what that is? It's man. If god was perfect, he wouldn't have fucked it up the way he has. There are many self-defeatists who will blame it all upon humanity, but that is uncalled for. The blame can only lie with the one who made us to be what we are, (which is human). So many people are trying to escape that fact. A dead jew just wont cut it with humanity, which god will know, and we continue destroying everything upon this planet to such degree it wasn't worth god's time putting it in here in the first place - unless you summize that god put it here for us to destroy - I guess he is quite infamous for destruction from what the bible says. So we are made in his image, something that has no respect for the rest of life aside from his own. When it takes his fancy, he will just kill it all in the most interesting way he can find.

Before humans it was dinosaurs, (or I guess some would argue they were here 7,000 years ago lol). Did god make them just to wipe them out? The same can be said of the dodo. Did god make the dodo just to be made extinct by mankind?

While everything else does a job - from the tulips in my garden to the lion on the savannah, mankind only knows how to destroy.

Unless God created more Gods (which would not be good, because of argument 1).

Well, if he's as perfect a god as you say, he can make other gods who don't question his authority as Head god, or Lord god. In Sumerian culture, Tiamat creates other gods, and it ends up with a "god shoot out".

I believe that there is something special with being the first one. Kind of like if you create a nice picture, if someone else threw in ideas then it wouldn't go along with your first attempt, and thus the picture doesn't get to be it's true self - as you wanted it. Since the picture was first made by you, then any change by anyone else will cause it to become less than what it could be if you continued with it (at least from your point-of-view).

If you're the all perfect, all knowing, all powerful god.... you wouldn't need to paint pictures in the first place.

4: We believe in a unknown God. By looking at all the religions, we can see that God isn't KNOWN to us

Many people, from many different religions would disagree with you. Do you intend to answer for them all?

The only way - as I understand it - to know God is through Jesus

It was obvious this line was going to appear eventually. You've just brushed aside every other religion on the planet, like dust into the breeze.

 

[15ofthe19]

I think as society becomes more and more advanced, and technology provides us with more tools that eliminate the necessity of thought as a means to an end, humans have become more likely to choose the path of least resistance in our daily lives, and most certainly in our search for truth. Isn't the irony apparent here? We finally have the technology to learn about virtually anything we wish for pennies a day, yet we mostly use our computers or whatnot to play games and waste time on message boards.

In an age where the deep study of all of the world's religions is right at your fingertips, and in almost all cases, totally free, many choose to bury their heads in the sand and label all that question as non-righteous or infidels. The Socratic method is reviled and despised as heresy, while dogmatic blustering is praised and lauded. Weird times indeed.

 

[stretched]

Yo 15,

The truth shall set ye free. Long live the web. Long live access to cheap information. Welcome to the world of dusty brown ringed necks. Freedom from the tomb of religious enslavement. Thanks Bill! (Gates and W)

Allcare

 

[Cyperium]

The majority of beliefs throughout history have been polytheistic, which can even be seen in the OT with the whole "let us make man...", and other such quotes. It can also be seen in the whole idea of a trinity, (3). Of course a christian would deny that, more happy to believe they refer to one, while naming 3.

It's three parts of God, that are one in God.

We'd also have to ask why a god wouldn't make other gods. Does he not need companionship or help?

I know many people will say no here. He is god, why would he need companionship or help? There are two responses to this:

A) Before you dismiss it, remember the seraphim, the angels, and other such beings made by god that are above mankind.

B) It depends on how you view this being. If you view him as the ultimate of ultimates- a being that knows everything, can do everything, is everywhere, can see everything etc, then not only must you state there's no reason to make other gods or angels but also absolutely no reason to make humans either.

A) I don't see how this is a responce, it's more a explanation of B.

B) I see your point, though you go to the conclusion without that many steps. We weren't made to satisfy God, what could we possibly do to satisfy Him?

As I see it, He created us because of Love.

The angels serve God for a purpouse.

The first part of this quote doesn't = the second. Even if we were to assume that a god being was around before everything else, hardly means it's perfect, just old.

The first thing in existance, should be perfect since there is nothing to make it "not" perfect, also the first thing, would be something that is perfect merely because it could start to exist at all, could something exist that isn't true? Only if it is backed-up by something that is true. Sure someone can lie about everything and anything but the atoms that "someone" consist of are true nevertheless, or are a representation of the truth.

In all of this there is one distinct flaw. Can you guess what that is? It's man. If god was perfect, he wouldn't have fucked it up the way he has.

He didn't "fuck it up", only in your idea of Him. All happens for a reason wether you like it or not.

There are many self-defeatists who will blame it all upon humanity, but that is uncalled for. The blame can only lie with the one who made us to be what we are, (which is human). So many people are trying to escape that fact. A dead jew just wont cut it with humanity, which god will know, and we continue destroying everything upon this planet to such degree it wasn't worth god's time putting it in here in the first place - unless you summize that god put it here for us to destroy - I guess he is quite infamous for destruction from what the bible says. So we are made in his image, something that has no respect for the rest of life aside from his own. When it takes his fancy, he will just kill it all in the most interesting way he can find.

Mankind is to blame for alot of bad things that happen, but there are also natural flaws, basically because everything is less than Him.

Before humans it was dinosaurs, (or I guess some would argue they were here 7,000 years ago lol). Did god make them just to wipe them out? The same can be said of the dodo. Did god make the dodo just to be made extinct by mankind?

They were apart of the system at that time, I don't know what would have happened if they never existed, but I'm sure the world would look different, even our own history has been changed because of the fact that dinosaurs existed. People have been inspired by them and all sorts of things. I guess "God works in mysterious ways" would be the correct thing to say, though you don't like that, I assume.

While everything else does a job - from the tulips in my garden to the lion on the savannah, mankind only knows how to destroy.

Mankind also knows love, happiness, caring, rightousness. You judge the whole because of the part.

Well, if he's as perfect a god as you say, he can make other gods who don't question his authority as Head god, or Lord god. In Sumerian culture, Tiamat creates other gods, and it ends up with a "god shoot out".

But that wouldn't be a God, and we still have the truth problem.

If you're the all perfect, all knowing, all powerful god.... you wouldn't need to paint pictures in the first place.

Need? God doesn't NEED anything. You say all-knowing, all-powerful and all-perfect, all of these are describing God more or less as a stone. Though God is all-loving, all-caring and all-good along with everything else, too bad if you have put a bad picture on good feelings I'd say.

Many people, from many different religions would disagree with you. Do you intend to answer for them all?

If we look at the variety of religions, we can see that there aren't a KNOWN God.

It was obvious this line was going to appear eventually. You've just brushed aside every other religion on the planet, like dust into the breeze.

"As I understand it". People are free to believe whatever they want. Oppinions are free too you know, and if I choose to brush aside every other religion then that is my choice based on my belief.

 

[SnakeLord]

It's three parts of God, that are one in God.

The subtle way of saying polytheism.

A) I don't see how this is a responce, it's more a explanation of B

What I was getting at is that god has supposedly made beings higher than humanity. It's also interesting to note that god has this recurring problem. Not only have humans gone against him, but even some angels went against him. Seems he can't get anyone to like him, poor guy. This ties in with most cultures of gods where they'd all have fights between each other, and go against each other. The problem with your particular list is it's flawed:

"1: There can only be one God. Why? Cause God is the truth, and there can only be one truth"

You see, you've put a conclusion without anything to support the conclusion: "..there can only be one truth" <-- where does this come from?

"If there were two Gods, then one God could make a different Truth than the other God."

Ah yes, this is seen a lot in the bible between god of the OT and jesus of the NT. Christians call it "new covenant" in order to denounce everything god said before it.

The point here is kind of like me saying "Well even with just one god.. can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?"

I avoid going in to these particular points. Furthermore, you said "we can see that God isn't KNOWN to us", which would lead me to ask why you have already defined him.

B) I see your point, though you go to the conclusion without that many steps. We weren't made to satisfy God, what could we possibly do to satisfy Him?

The answer is easy... We can sacrifice cows. He just loves the smell of burning meat. As an example of this, you should check

Leviticus 1:9, 1:13, 1:17, 2:2, 2:9, 2:12, 3:5, 3:16, 4:31, 6:15, 6:21, 8:21, 8:28, 17:6, 23:13, 23:18, 26:31

Numbers 15:3, 15:7, 15:10, 15:13, 15:14, 15:24, 18:17, 28:2, 28:6, 28:8, 28:13, 28:24, 28:27, 29:2, 29:6, 29:8, 29:13, 29:36

To name but two books. Sacrifices were demanded from the humans, as was prayer, and total worship. He even went so far as to kill people if they worshipped other gods or statues. The way to satisfy god is to worship him without question and then you get handed a gift of appreciation when you die.

As I see it, He created us because of Love.

Love? How so?

The angels serve God for a purpouse.

Unless they get fed up with him and start an angels revolt. But anyway, what purpose do they serve?

The first thing in existance, should be perfect since there is nothing to make it "not" perfect

Sorry but you're going to have to give me your definition and understanding of what exactly "perfect" is.

All happens for a reason wether you like it or not.

"Objection your honour, this is groundless speculation"

"Sustained"

Mankind is to blame for alot of bad things that happen

But if this god of your exists, then mankind is to blame for nothing - after all, it only happens for a reason.. right?

If I made a robot and gave it the ability to kill humans, the only person to blame when that robot starts killing humans, would be me.

but there are also natural flaws, basically because everything is less than Him.

Don't start labelling things as "natural flaws". Those flaws were made by your perfect god, and thus he is responsible for them.

They were apart of the system at that time

I'm curious as to what time exactly. Do you believe in a created earth and everything on it some 7,000 years ago, or do you concur with a 4.5billion year old planet?

I guess "God works in mysterious ways" would be the correct thing to say

"Objection your honour, guesswork!"

Actually, I find that whole quote complete and total tripe Is that the commonly used quote when talking to the dying millions around the world, the Africans dying of thirst and disease, etc etc?

Mankind also knows love, happiness, caring, rightousness. You judge the whole because of the part.

I wasn't talking about individual emotions or behaviour, I was talking mankind as a whole.

But that wouldn't be a God, and we still have the truth problem.

What wouldn't be a god? And there is no truth problem, it's a flaw on your part.

Need? God doesn't NEED anything.

Really? Read the bible.

Though God is all-loving

Say that to the victims of the flood, the inhabitants of sodom, the women who's wombs were closed, the plagues that were visited upon a bunch of egyptians, etc etc.

Don't use the word "all", it has no place here.

all-caring and all-good

See above.

too bad if you have put a bad picture on good feelings I'd say.

Where does that come from?

If we look at the variety of religions, we can see that there aren't a KNOWN God.

Ah, so everyone's just relying on a big book of old words? Strange people.

"As I understand it". People are free to believe whatever they want. Oppinions are free too you know, and if I choose to brush aside every other religion then that is my choice based on my belief.

Never said you couldn't, I was just giving my free opinion.

 

[rainbow__princess_4]

Time is a man's way of explaining the aging process... nothing more, nothing less. It DOES exist, but there are many ways of thinking about it. The Australia Aborigines, for example, used to believe that life was a spiral and past events could reccur. Say that this was totally true, then you couldn't be bound to it could you? Define "time" then we'll define what's attached to it.

 

[Godless]

Quote: The Australia Aborigines, for example, used to believe that life was a spiral and past events could reccur.

Now that is smart, specially if you speculate the market. This is true, time and time again stocks go up and come back down, it's a spiral wirl wind, many opportunities exist to cash in on (time) that is if you play the futures market, The Australian aboriginies perhaps make good speculators of stoc market

Godless.

 

[Gravage]

Oh my God. There is no such a thing as time! while we are on this journey called life in this 3rd dimensional world. We have a sense of time. because of seasons and earth rotation .But when you have an eternal Being (GOD) with out beginning or end. everything to him is the eternal present.He lives in the eternal Day. 22:5 Revelation And night shall be no more;thay need no light of lamp or SUN, for the LORD GOD will be their light, and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If there wasn't time you wouldn't get old and die,like any other species-you would be eternal.So,there is time.

 

[Q25]

I am a christian and ....

Basically I do not know,
I just know that it all started with God.

ah,the mind boggling logic of a xian!


---------------------------------------------------------
pray for some intelect,plz!

 

[rainbow__princess_4]

Quote: The Australia Aborigines, for example, used to believe that life was a spiral and past events could reccur.

Now that is smart, specially if you speculate the market. This is true, time and time again stocks go up and come back down, it's a spiral wirl wind, many opportunities exist to cash in on (time) that is if you play the futures market, The Australian aboriginies perhaps make good speculators of stoc market

Godless.

Yeah! go me!