God and Free Will

[mikenostic]

yes



you are mixing things here


Basically the divine plan of god is that all living entities utilize their free will to develop a loving relationship with him - refusing that (by our free will of course) lands us in the material world - kind of like a person in jail also has free will, but the nature of their environment greatly inhibits their ability to fulfill their desire

Then that's NOT free will in the true sense of the phrase. It's limited free will, with conditions and consequences. You can even remove all the sugarcoating that the bible throws on top of this, and it boils down to:
You have the 'free will' to either choose Jesus as your savior, or burn for eternity in hell. <--that's just another way to say what you posted.

 

[lightgigantic]

What about when god hardened the hearts of the Canaanites to prevent them from seeking peace with Isaiah and his barbarian tribes of Israelites, so that the Israelites could slaughter every man, woman, child and animal?

sinful acts tend to harden the heart - in other words a sinful person is empowered by god to have a hard heart

Is that not a gross transgression of the free will that god gave to man? And if god's willing to do that sort of thing, why can't he soften people's hearts so they don't, I dunno, shoot and kill 31 people?

hardening the heart depends on sinful acts and softening the heart depends upon not performing sinful acts - desiring a soft heart while having a range of sinful acts to take shelter of doesn't appear to do the trick

 

[lightgigantic]

Mikenostic
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
yes



you are mixing things here


Basically the divine plan of god is that all living entities utilize their free will to develop a loving relationship with him - refusing that (by our free will of course) lands us in the material world - kind of like a person in jail also has free will, but the nature of their environment greatly inhibits their ability to fulfill their desire

”

Then that's NOT free will in the true sense of the phrase. It's limited free will, with conditions and consequences.

thats correct - in philosophical terms it is called determinism - basically its the same as free will, except that there are consequences according to how one utilizes their freedom - like for instance by misuse of free will a person performs crimes and is put in jail

You can even remove all the sugarcoating that the bible throws on top of this, and it boils down to:
You have the 'free will' to either choose Jesus as your savior, or burn for eternity in hell. <--that's just another way to say what you posted.

give or take a few details (I could pull apart the eternal hell thing), that is the essential extent of our free will - namely the choice to either accept god (or god's representative) or reject him, with concomitant reactions

 

[lightgigantic]

If there's a god, there's no free will, if god exist He has no free will.

interesting that you open your post with a conclusion - but what are the premises?

Hence the theist themselves made god an impossible phenomenon, when they tried to make him omnimax of all it's attributes.

this is not a premise, but a further conclusion based on your opening conclusion

If god be omniscient, then he has perfect knowledge of an outcome of a human decision, if an entity has foreknowledge of such a decision, then humans hold no free will.

If I know that if you stick your finger in fire it will burn you don't have free will to do that - and if I am omnipresent, given that I can read your mind the moment you decide to stick your finger in fire - and if I am omnipresent - given that I can exist everywhere and be present both in and outside of you - can I not be fully in control of everything and witness and know your sticking of your finger in fire before your finger actually goes in?

If god is omniscient, he then can't change that which he knows that is going to happen, therefore if god can't change an outcome of an event, because he knows that event shall happens a certain way, and a certain way only, then god has no free will.

on the contrary, there is nothing that can over come god's desire - by desiring something to happen he can make it happen - given the state of the living entity in the material world, it is god's desire that the living entity comes to his senses, hence everyone meets with reverses in the pursuit of the perfect material life (even the apparently materially perfect people with beauty, wealth and everything envied by those who don't have it)
\

 

[Michael]

Adam and Eve rebelled, as

As nor Adam or Eve knew rebelling was wrong (they didn't know right from wrong and therefor couldn't possible know disobeying this pick of a God-head would get them in trouble) it's all BS


As to free will, if God knows what your choice will be then you have no choice. Monotheists will say that God is an "observer" and that really you made the choice and God is just watching, but the fact is if God knows all choices then you do not have the freedom to do anything other than what God knows you will do. No "Free Will"

 

[Godless]

interesting that you open your post with a conclusion - but what are the premises?

On the premise that flew over your head, cause it's seemingly stuckupyourrectum!

OTH omniscient is my premise, has this flown over your head? If an entity knows an outcome of an event, it has no choice, since the outcome is predetermined. If this entity changes, the event then this concludes a mistake, not omnipotent, to change the event the reason may be because it didn't have knowledge of the outcome, so not omniscient either.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will. Free will kills the concept of an omnimax entity, cause if such an entity exist, then we have no free will.

 

[one_raven]

As to free will, if God knows what your choice will be then you have no choice.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will.

You are both, of course correct.
However, as I said, I don't think one necessarily must know the future to be omniscient.

This is simply a semantic argument, therefore pretty meaningless.

Omniscient does not necessarily mean that he knows everything that WILL happen.
It means that he knew everything there is to know.
The future could be unknown and unknowable.

and

I can certainly conceive of a God that knows all there is to know, and not know the future, becaue that is not something that is to be known.

Omniscient is simply a word, and it's not even a word that appears in the Bible.

I'd like you both to respond to that.

 

[Godless]

In my debates with BeyonTimeandSpace, the entity god according to him knows everything that there is to know, correct? Then an event is known by such an entity. My argument suggest since the entity knows the event, he should also know it's outcome. Correct? if an entity knows an outcome of an event this implies foreknowledge of such an event, he knows the outcome, so if the entity changes any outcome of an event this would be considered divine intervention. If such a thing happened, then this entity apparently has made a mistake, thus omitting him of having perfect knowledge, since the outcome has been predetermined since time began, then divine intervention has occurred, this contradicts perfect knowledge of an outcome of an event.

Thus god has no free will.

If an entity knows the outcome of our choices, since the beginning of time, hence god transcends time correct? then this implies foreknowledge of such a decision, if such an entity know the outcome of that decision, then we have no free will, hence it's predetermined. Our decision to choose comes spontaneously thus unpredictable, if an outcome is known before it happens by an entity this is not spontaneous on our part, but a predetermined choice, thus we have no free will.

Thus god contradicts the concept of free will, if this god serves all the attributes of omnimax.

 

[lightgigantic]

On the premise that flew over your head, cause it's seemingly stuckupyourrectum!

I gathered that was the aroma of your premise

OTH omniscient is my premise, has this flown over your head?

if you mean does your explanation of omniscient seem a bit askew, yes

If an entity knows an outcome of an event, it has no choice, since the outcome is predetermined. If this entity changes, the event then this concludes a mistake, not omnipotent, to change the event the reason may be because it didn't have knowledge of the outcome, so not omniscient either.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will. Free will kills the concept of an omnimax entity, cause if such an entity exist, then we have no free will.[/QUOTE]

this however doesn't address what I brought up in the post- namely that if god is situated in the universe as an all pervasive entity, he can know what happens no matter which way you spring your free will - you just open with an ad hom and repeat what you already said

 

[Michael]

However, as I said, I don't think one necessarily must know the future to be omniscient.

You mean God "knows" the position and state of each particle or wave of reality from every atom on "downward" in all dimensions?

What does it even mean to "know" all of this?
Where is the information stored?

To know everything is to have a record of all that IS as it happens.

To record ALL information you would need to make a copy or duplicate of the entire Universe (thus have all of it's information) for every single instant of reality. To do anything other than make a copy, it seems to me, would requite more information to record the information.
So copies it is.
Then the question becomes: is there infinity in an instant or can an instant be broken down into discreet units? If it can be, and lets assume there is a limit, then you would have trillions of duplicate Universes saved somewhere for each millisecond.

This "somewhere" would be one big motherf*cking backup external hard-drive in the sky..... called God.


OK, sure, I wouldn't think it so ... but maybe it's possible?

Michael

 

[Godless]

god for an "unknown entity" there sure as hell lots of advocates claiming to know all it's attributes!

How the hell can you explain a pervasive entity? God is up your ass? must be, you claim it's everywhere, so your rectum is a destination, god is everywhere so he's there too!

Wait a second Michael space itself is the computer. The hardrive though perhaps expired, along with it's creation. Seemingly cause space is a chaotic phenomenon and not a orderly entity like many theist claim.

If an entity knows or has foreknowledge of any outcome, at all, whether I decide to go left or right, the outcome of that choice is known "predetermined" then I have no free will.

Space, life itself is not a predetermined phenomenon. Life is a chaotic entity, humans are unpredictable just as space, like Michael mentions if all information is stored, then that's one big F*cking hardrive.

Thanks LG discussing with you only brings me closer to being a strong atheist, one who plainly just claims a god doesn't exist. From you I gather what type of entity god is, a pervasive, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent entity that contradicts it's very own existence, by the use of plain and simple logic!

 

[scorpius]

Did god grant men free will?
Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?
Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that? Does he?

ah the free will argument again,
read this
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/vindicate.html

 

[lightgigantic]

god for an "unknown entity" there sure as hell lots of advocates claiming to know all it's attributes!

omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics

How the hell can you explain a pervasive entity?

scripture is a good place to start

God is up your ass? must be, you claim it's everywhere, so your rectum is a destination, god is everywhere so he's there too!

SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.

If an entity knows or has foreknowledge of any outcome, at all, whether I decide to go left or right, the outcome of that choice is known "predetermined" then I have no free will. [/QUOTE
I guess you can't fathom how predictable you are in the eyes of god

Space, life itself is not a predetermined phenomenon. Life is a chaotic entity, humans are unpredictable just as space, like Michael mentions if all information is stored, then that's one big F*cking hardrive.

either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule

Thanks LG discussing with you only brings me closer to being a strong atheist, one who plainly just claims a god doesn't exist.

then that must make you an irrational atheist - here's why
to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative

From you I gather what type of entity god is, a pervasive, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent entity that contradicts it's very own existence, by the use of plain and simple logic!

as illustrated above, your logic is neither plain nor simple

 

[Godless]

omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics

And you have evidence exactly how?

scripture is a good place to start

Which? there are literally thousands. Could the book of Zeus be a start, or Marduk maybe?

SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.

So god is an atom that resides in your rectum?

either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule

By who's account? ain't a super perfect entity suppose to create a perfect universe? Couldn't it at least do that? Since most theist believe that humans are a bunch of fuckups since birth, "born in sin" couldn't this entity get anything right?

to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative

To say a god does exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent)-since this challenges the human capacity, the theist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative.

It works both ways LG, either you got evidence or you don't. You just fell in my trap!

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless
“

omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics
”
And you have evidence exactly how?

first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice

“
scripture is a good place to start
”
Which? there are literally thousands. Could the book of Zeus be a start, or Marduk maybe?

all good places to start

“
SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.
”
So god is an atom that resides in your rectum?

that and a whole lot more

“
either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule
”
By who's account? ain't a super perfect entity suppose to create a perfect universe? Couldn't it at least do that?

If there is a problem, I guess its not the universes

Since most theist believe that humans are a bunch of fuckups since birth, "born in sin" couldn't this entity get anything right?[/QUOTE
you are coming closer to the problem here

“
to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative
”
To say a god does exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent)-since this challenges the human capacity, the theist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative.

actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)

It works both ways LG, either you got evidence or you don't. You just fell in my trap!

its not clear why one would have to be as powerful as god to know he exists

 

[Spectrum]

By strict definition isn't a free will the freedom to allow whatever will happen, to happen. For example should I decide that I will go to the shop and I arrive there then I have been granted my will, but should I decide that I will do something more serious then we find a problem. For will to persevere my actions must remain a secret until such time as my will is executed, but should my will be known then it is possible to stop me. Hence a free-will relies on the will that is to be performed, and how it affects other people.

 

[Godless]

first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice

The same would work for Lenny the leprechaun, but yet you deny it's existence!

all good places to start

Start here:
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/

that and a whole lot more

Why would an atom that resides in your rectum require worship?

actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)

actually to know Lenny exists requires that Lenny reveals himself-thats why you see that Lenninism has not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory-practice-realization)

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless

“
first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice
”
The same would work for Lenny the leprechaun, but yet you deny it's existence!

I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application

“
all good places to start
”
Start here:
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/

so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.

“
that and a whole lot more
”
Why would an atom that resides in your rectum require worship?

actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture

“
actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)
”
actually to know Lenny exists requires that Lenny reveals himself-thats why you see that Lenninism has not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory-practice-realization)

now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you

 

[Godless]

I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application

According to you, cause you fail to implement the process to know Lenny.

so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.

So we are in a world where all religions say they are the one true religion, and where all sects deem themselves the chosen ones of god-and they all say everyone else is damned if you don't believe as they do!

actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture

What's the big picture? That god is the BIG ASSHOLE?

now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you

How wrong you are, you have not done your research.

The tying together ST Patrick's day and Leprechauns is a modern phenomenon, however the folklore of this little creature is being around since ancient times. It's myth I won't deny that, but so is your religion or any that you care to mention!!

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless
“

I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application
”
According to you, cause you fail to implement the process to know Lenny.

does the process involve craft glue and scissors (be sure to reference your process in a historical continuum although)

“
so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.
”

So we are in a world where all religions say they are the one true religion, and where all sects deem themselves the chosen ones of god-and they all say everyone else is damned if you don't believe as they do!

so therefore you cannot believe everything you hear, nor disbelieve everything that you hear - where does that leave you?

“
actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture
”
What's the big picture? That god is the BIG ASSHOLE?

actually it means that your ass is not so important no matter how big you think it is

“
now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you
”
How wrong you are, you have not done your research.

The tying together ST Patrick's day and Leprechauns is a modern phenomenon, however the folklore of this little creature is being around since ancient times. It's myth I won't deny that, but so is your religion or any that you care to mention!!

hence my original statement was correct

"I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application"