God...........Again.

SnakeLord Said:
Perhaps we just speak a different language?
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I'm from Portugal, so you got that right...:D

By the way, i'm not a creationist. I believe in evolution...

There are 2 ways to see the idea of complexity (in my opinion). A mountain is a complex mixture of rocks. A human being is also a complex mixture. The difference is that humans are organized complexity. To exist, our elements, cells, organs, must have a particular structure. They must be organized in a particular way. A mountain doesn't need this to exist...

In the example of the moth, it's true that it's behaviour is simple. But nonetheless, the moth is biologicaly complex...:cool:
 
Originally posted by Cris
Miguelio,

Yes I can. Computers were not designed by humans. Computers evolved just like everything else. Computers have been evolving for thousands of years starting with probably the abacus.

If intelligence was the primary factor behind something seemingly complex then why didn’t cavemen build computers? They had the same level of intelligence as modern man. The intelligence of man is a natural result of evolution; that it assists much like a catalyst to help computers evolve is again a natural process.

There is no evidence that anything intelligent ever designed anything complex. Everything we see as complex even the modern computer was the result of something earlier and simpler. Currently we know of no other mechanism other than evolution for the existence of anything, especially anything complex.
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Would computers exist without an inteligence? :confused:
 
Miguelio,

Would computers exist without an inteligence?
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More importantly, would human intelligence have existed without evolution?

But there are many symbiotic and dependent systems. For example, could flowers exist without insects? Without insect pollination many flowers would not exist.

Or how would human digestion operate without bacteria? I think there is also a large mammal that depends on a certain small bird to clean its teeth. The ocean reveals other strange symbiotic relationships.

All these relationships evolved just like intelligence. My point is that from what we observe the processes of evolution came before intelligence, i.e. intelligence is dependent on evolution. Your argument is based on intelligence coming before evolution but you have no evidence for such a claim since man’s intelligence came later.
 
Originally posted by Miguelio
Then i guess atheists are just furious people when God is in debate...:cool:

How come? :confused:
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He was an embittered atheist (the sort of atheist who does not so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike Him), and took a sort of pleasure in thinking that human affairs would never improve.


- Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London

I'd say that this quote could be applied to quite a number of atheists.

Originally posted by Miguelio
In That case computers can be generated by natural processes without the help of an intelligence:D .
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We are computers. We evolved without the guiding hand of a supernatural presence, didn't we?
Originally posted by filibuster
All religions must die.
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Don't fret, sirrah; eventually they all will.
 
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I don't understand why creationists are so intent on undermining the tenability of evolution. As a theist myself, I see no reason for that approach.

I have had many experiences that I intrepret as having a divine component, but every one of them could also be interpreted from a strictly secular standpoint. It seems that God's prime directive is to interact with us in a way that leaves us the choice as to whether believe in him or not. Why, then, should I be bothered by a secular explanation for the emergence of life? Instead, I should expect a legitimate scientific explanation, as such would be in keeping with the modus operandi of God. As far as I can tell, he leaves no smoking guns and not even any unmistakeable fingerprints.
 
I should expect a legitimate scientific explanation, as such would be in keeping with the modus operandi of God. As far as I can tell, he leaves no smoking guns and not even any unmistakeable fingerprints.
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Convenient, isn't it? Neither do Sasquatch or Santa Clause.

I should expect a religious explanation for a good sandwich at the deli, even though the guy who just made it is still standing there.
 
Originally posted by filibuster
I should expect a religious explanation for a good sandwich at the deli, even though the guy who just made it is still standing there.
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And if you came up with one, it would hypocritical of me to argue with you, although I'd be hard pressed to understand your motivation for entertaining such a belief. I realize that you may also find my motivations unfathomable, since you and I have likely travelled very different paths.
 
Strangedays,

I have had many experiences that I interpret as having a divine component, but every one of them could also be interpreted from a strictly secular standpoint.
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How then do you know which interpretation is true?

It seems that God's prime directive is to interact with us in a way that leaves us the choice as to whether believe in him or not.
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But it is also true that if he doesn’t exist then the choice remains the same.

Why, then, should I be bothered by a secular explanation for the emergence of life?
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Given that the choice is equally balanced the only thing left that will tip the scales will be evidence.

Instead, I should expect a legitimate scientific explanation, as such would be in keeping with the modus operandi of God.
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And if he doesn’t exist then your expectations will never materialize. But you imply that abiogenesis and/or evolution are not legitimate scientific explanations, how so?

As far as I can tell, he leaves no smoking guns and not even any unmistakable fingerprints.
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And this is entirely consistent with the evidence for anything and everything that does not exist and has never existed.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Miguelio,

More importantly, would human intelligence have existed without evolution?

But there are many symbiotic and dependent systems. For example, could flowers exist without insects? Without insect pollination many flowers would not exist.

Or how would human digestion operate without bacteria? I think there is also a large mammal that depends on a certain small bird to clean its teeth. The ocean reveals other strange symbiotic relationships.

All these relationships evolved just like intelligence. My point is that from what we observe the processes of evolution came before intelligence, i.e. intelligence is dependent on evolution. Your argument is based on intelligence coming before evolution but you have no evidence for such a claim since man’s intelligence came later.
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Following your reasoning, my conclusion is that humans have a symbiotic relationship with evolution... But evolution doesn't need us, does it?

Just playing with words...:D

Mybe evolution is the way God does things...:cool:
 
Originally posted by filibuster
As if you know, sirrah.
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Filibuster, as I see it, humanity has been driving toward this goal for the past 400 years. Irreligiousness has increased staggeringly since then. Apparently the worship of the invisible is becoming antiquated.
 
Originally posted by Redoubtable


We are computers. We evolved without the guiding hand of a supernatural presence, didn't we?
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Of Course we did. Just like my Pentium M...:D

Our world has rules, and we have evolved because that was possible in the first place. But why are so many properties of the Universe fine-Tuned for life? Why are there so many coincidences that make our existence possible? Do you have an answer? Let me guess: you are going to say that i'm reasoning backwords. But that's not really an explanation... :cool:
 
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Originally posted by filibuster
Convenient, isn't it? Neither do Sasquatch or Santa Clause.

I should expect a religious explanation for a good sandwich at the deli, even though the guy who just made it is still standing there.
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LOL :D
 
Miguelio,

But why are so many properties of the Universe fine-Tuned for life? Why are there so many coincidences that make our existence possible? Do you have an answer? Let me guess: you are going to say that i'm reasoning backwords. But that's not really an explanation...
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Try it this way, what is the more credible –

1. The entire universe was designed just for us.
2. An insignificant part of the universe contained conditions where our type of life could evolve.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Miguelio,

Try it this way, what is the more credible –

1. The entire universe was designed just for us.
2. An insignificant part of the universe contained conditions where our type of life could evolve.
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I wouldn't say that the Universe was designed for us, but i would say that the idea of a Creator is more credible to me, although in the atheist medium this isn't true... :cool:
 
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