GMO foods a good thing or bad?

One thing, which is a cheek.
If they infect your crops by wind contamination with their patented genes,
then if you resow your seed, they will sue you.
 
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2013-01/29/content_16184373.htm said:
Through November, China was the top destination for exports of live US hogs in 2012 in terms of value - $16.28 million for 12,138 animals, said Joe Schuele, a spokesman for the US Meat Export Federation, an industry trade group. ... US was the biggest supplier of live-hogs last year, with much smaller imports from Canada, France and Britain.

China, where pork is a dietary staple, is importing US breeder hogs to help meet the protein demands of its growing middle-class population. US breeders are facing declining consumption and rising production costs at home. But some industry observers have suggested that American pork processors could be hurt in the long run if Chinese breeders increase output enough so that imports are no longer needed.
China already has nearly twice as many pigs as rest of world´s total, but with pork the favorite meat and double digit annual salary gains they need still more and more productive hogs. I don´t think US lead in meat productivity per pig is GMO related - just old fashion breeding for 100+ years.

This is probably "bad news" for US pig breeders later, but great news for corn farmers. Hell corn prices will probably climb so high that making alcohol out of corn will finally end.
 
Asking for a while a more specific question.
Should GMO foods be allowed to contain insecticide genes?

The following quote is from an anti GMO site:
Today, more than 85 percent of U.S. corn crops contain a special gene added that allows them to produce an insecticide. This way, when bugs attempt to eat the corn, they're killed right away (specifically their stomach is split open) because the plant contains an invisible, built-in pesticide shield.

The problem is, of course, that when you eat this corn you eat the built-in pesticide as well, and as you might suspect this is proving problematic for human health and the environment.

http://newconnexion.net/articles/index.cfm/2012/05/Built-in_Pesticides_in_Your_Food.html

Given that these insects are our distant genetic cousins, should we be ingesting food doctored to kill them?
 
Asking for a while a more specific question.
Should GMO foods be allowed to contain insecticide genes?

The following quote is from an anti GMO site:
Today, more than 85 percent of U.S. corn crops contain a special gene added that allows them to produce an insecticide. This way, when bugs attempt to eat the corn, they're killed right away (specifically their stomach is split open) because the plant contains an invisible, built-in pesticide shield.

The problem is, of course, that when you eat this corn you eat the built-in pesticide as well, and as you might suspect this is proving problematic for human health and the environment.

http://newconnexion.net/articles/index.cfm/2012/05/Built-in_Pesticides_in_Your_Food.html

Given that these insects are our distant genetic cousins, should we be ingesting food doctored to kill them?

Most plants have natural defenses against pests. Some of them are harmful to humans and some are not. Anyway, that's why we have testing to find out what's safe and what's not and just like nature some humans may have reactions to the new change while most of us would be alright with it. Where do you draw the line in what's alright and what's not?
 
Most plants have natural defenses against pests. Some of them are harmful to humans and some are not. Anyway, that's why we have testing to find out what's safe and what's not
And that's why we are cautious and conservative when faced with major agricultural innovations we don't know much about. That's why, for example, we would never allow 80 or 90 % of our food supply to be taken over in less than a decade by three of four corporations, who engineer their plants - almost all of our locally grown food - to sequester herbicides and express insecticides in ways we have little information about and less than a decade of experience with. Not even a full human generation, let alone the two or three it would take to check this stuff out.

and just like nature some humans may have reactions to the new change while most of us would be alright with it. Where do you draw the line in what's alright and what's not?
If the few turns out to be half of all second generation pregnant women, then we will be very grateful that we kept all options open and strictly forbade secrecy on the part of the corporations making all the money here - especially, that we labeled this stuff so that those who mistrusted could avoid it.

That would be a minimum, for the label "alright", no? No secrecy in the research and testing, full labeling of the product.
 
And that's why we are cautious and conservative when faced with major agricultural innovations we don't know much about. That's why, for example, we would never allow 80 or 90 % of our food supply to be taken over in less than a decade by three of four corporations, who engineer their plants - almost all of our locally grown food - to sequester herbicides and express insecticides in ways we have little information about and less than a decade of experience with. Not even a full human generation, let alone the two or three it would take to check this stuff out.

If the few turns out to be half of all second generation pregnant women, then we will be very grateful that we kept all options open and strictly forbade secrecy on the part of the corporations making all the money here - especially, that we labeled this stuff so that those who mistrusted could avoid it.

That would be a minimum, for the label "alright", no? No secrecy in the research and testing, full labeling of the product.

That sounds reasonable to me.
 
Asking for a while a more specific question.
Should GMO foods be allowed to contain insecticide genes?

The following quote is from an anti GMO site:
Today, more than 85 percent of U.S. corn crops contain a special gene added that allows them to produce an insecticide. This way, when bugs attempt to eat the corn, they're killed right away (specifically their stomach is split open) because the plant contains an invisible, built-in pesticide shield.

The problem is, of course, that when you eat this corn you eat the built-in pesticide as well, and as you might suspect this is proving problematic for human health and the environment.

http://newconnexion.net/articles/index.cfm/2012/05/Built-in_Pesticides_in_Your_Food.html

Given that these insects are our distant genetic cousins, should we be ingesting food doctored to kill them?
Bugs don't have stomachs.
 
Should GMO foods be allowed to contain insecticide genes?

Most foods (non-GMO's) contain pesticides as well:

==============
Division of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Barker Hall, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720; and §Cell and Molecular Biology Division,
Lawrence Berkely Laboratory, Berkeley, CA 94720
Bruce N. Ames, July 19, 1990

ABSTRACT The toxicological significance of exposures to
synthetic chemicals is examined in the context of exposures to
naturally occurring chemicals. We calculate that 99.99% (by
weight) of the pesticides in the American diet are chemicals that
plants produce to defend themselves. Only 52 natural pesticides
have been tested in high-dose animal cancer tests, and about
half (27) are rodent carcinogens; these 27 are shown to be
present in many common foods. We conclude that natural and
synthetic chemicals are equally likely to be positive in animal
cancer tests. . . .

Dietary Pesticides Are 99.99% All Natural. Nature's pesticides
are one important subset of natural chemicals. Plants
produce toxins to protect themselves against fungi, insects,
and animal predators (5, 16-23). Tens of thousands of these
natural pesticides have been discovered, and every species of
plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen
toxins. When plants are stressed or damaged, such as during
a pest attack, they may greatly increase their natural pesticide
levels, occasionally to levels that can be acutely toxic to
humans. We estimate that Americans eat about 1.5 g of
natural pesticides per person per day, which is about 10,000
times more than they eat of synthetic pesticide residues (see
below). As referenced in this paper (see refs. 16-21 and
legends . . .
===========================

Given that these insects are our distant genetic cousins, should we be ingesting food doctored to kill them?

We've been eating food designed to kill them for millennia. It's definitely worthwhile to test any new pesticide (genetic or chemical) to see what effect it has on people - but it's not a new phenomenon.
 
Interesting article in The Ecologist:



The GM lobby and its 'seven sins against science'
Peter Melchett

31st December, 2012


The pro-GM lobby has sought to take the 'scientific high-ground' by positioning itself as the voice of reason and progress, while painting its opponents as unsophisticated 'anti-science' luddites. In a scathing response Peter Melchett turns the tables

Powerful forces in Western society have been promoting genetic engineering (now usually genetic modification - GM) in agricultural crops since the mid-1990s. They have included many governments, in particular those of the USA and UK, powerful individual politicians like George Bush and Tony Blair, scientific bodies like the UK's Royal Society, research councils, successive UK Government chief scientists, many individual scientists, and companies selling GM products. They have ignored the views of citizens, and most sales of GM food have relied on secrecy - denying consumers information on what they are buying (20 US States are currently embroiled in fierce battles over GM labelling, strenuously opposed by Monsanto). Worse, they have consistently promoted GM in ways which are not only unscientific, but which have been positively damaging to the integrity of science.

This is, of course, an argument usually aimed at those who, like me, are opposed to GM crops. We are accused of being 'anti-science', emotional and irrational, and more recently, of being as bad as ‘Nazi book burners’ by the President of the National Farmers’ Union. This criticism has been effective in framing the debate about GM crops in the media in the UK, where the conflict over GM is routinely presented as a debate between those who are pro and those who are anti-science. This is reinforced by the fact that those selected to speak in favour of GM are usually themselves scientists (albeit often working for GM companies, or funded to work on GM crops), and those selected to oppose GM crops are usually environmentalists, farmers, or citizens concerned about the safety of the food they eat. Scientists who are critical of GM crops are almost never interviewed by the media.

This characterisation of those opposed to GM as being anti-science has always ignored the fact that the NGOs concerned, like Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the Soil Association, are staunch supporters of science, have scientists working for them, and run campaigns to combat problems which were only identifiable through scientific investigation, like the depletion of the ozone layer and climate change. People opposed to GM, including farmers and environmentalists, often have professional or scientific qualifications, and are well versed in the scientific disciplines that affect agriculture. This has not stopped supporters of GM crops dismissing all of these people as irrational, emotional, anti-science zealots.

This characterisation also ignores the fact that the major organisations, and most individuals, who oppose GM crops are not opposed to the use of GM technology in medicine, nor to marker assisted selection (MAS) crop breeding, which relies on scientific knowledge of a plant’s genome. If this was really a case of being 'anti-science', how could we approve of the use of GM technology in medicine or MAS crop breeding?

Indeed, the basic science concerning the complexities of gene organisation and function suggests that natural breeding, often augmented with the non-GM biotechnology tool of MAS, is a far more powerful and productive way forward for crop improvement. Natural breeding and MAS not only preserve gene order and function, but allow the multiple gene systems that confer desirable properties such as higher yield, pest-and blight-resistance, and tolerance to drought, salinity, and flood, to be rapidly and relatively inexpensively bred into crops – something which is still only a distant dream for GM crop technologists.

I should briefly mention a personal interest in the relationship between GM crops and science. I was one of 28 Greenpeace volunteers who in 1999 removed part of a GM maize crop being grown in Norfolk as part of a five year, field scale trial to investigate the relative impact of GM and non GM crops on farmland wildlife. Those of us who tried to remove that crop were accused of vandalism, of trashing the crop, and of being anti-science. In legal terms, we were accused of criminal damage.




In common with, I think, all scientists, I believe that there should be limits on what experiments scientists can do. As well as the general law, there are ethics committees to protect people from unnecessary or potentially damaging research, and the UK has strict (but not strict enough) controls on the use of animals in research. But there are no ethics committees to protect the environment or the interests of non-GM farmers. I believe that farm-based trials of GM crops threaten both, and that is why I and others tried to remove that GM crop. The jury agreed with us, and all of us were found not guilty of criminal damage, so what we did was found to be legally justified, not vandalism.

The fact that the framing of the debate about the use of GM technology in agriculture, between pro- and anti-science, has been successful does not make it correct. In fact, it is those who promote GM crops who have routinely abused science, ignored the basic principles of scientific investigation and proof, and ruthlessly attacked fellow scientists who disagreed with their pro-GM line. In doing so they have misused, abused and devalued science. If people have less respect for science than in the past, I hold the pro-GM lobby partly to blame. They have done real damage to the integrity and independence of science.

Here is the evidence on which I base this accusation.

The first sin

Pro-GM scientists have made the mistake of conflating their opponents' opposition to commercial products (GM crops) with opposition to science. As I will show, those opposed to GM crops have a different, and I would say more accurate, understanding of the underlying science. But GM soya seeds are not 'science' – they are a commercial product.

These products have impacts in the real world. For example, they are used to alter the relationship between farmers and seed producers, preventing farmers saving their own seed. Once a GM variety has been grown, contamination makes it hard for the farmer to revert to non-GM crops, so GM crops tie farmers into long-term relationships with GM seed producers. This allows these companies to exert considerable power over the cost of farmers’ inputs (much as multiple retailers do over the price farmers receive for their outputs). It is now clear that existing GM crops have encouraged herbicide-resistant weeds and insecticide-resistant pests. This has led to ever higher use of more complex mixtures of pesticides to control these pests. As a result, the introduction of most GM crops leads to large increases in pesticide use, rather than the decreases predicted by the GM industry.

The GM traits can be passed by crossing to wild relatives of the crop, and the insecticide in GM Bt crops can destroy beneficial soil fungi. GM crops have negative environmental impacts, as the UK Government's scientific research programme (the Farm Scale Evaluations), which I opposed, showed.

To oppose GM crops for all or any of these reasons is not 'anti-science'. On the contrary, opponents of GM use scientific evidence and cite the practical consequences of growing GM crops as arguments against the use of this particular agricultural technology.

The second sin

Proponents of GM made the mistake of assuming that the scientific breakthrough of unravelling DNA structure and function, and the discovery of DNA-manipulating enzymes (which led to the development of genetic engineering technology being applied to crops), was based on a full understanding of how genes work. As the history of science shows, many great scientific breakthroughs initially appear to have solved some long-standing problem. But on further investigation, it is frequently the case that the new breakthrough raises a host of new questions and areas for investigation. Those of us who love science find this one of the fascinating things about it.

But the companies that were developing GM crops based their ideas on an over-simplistic model of the control of gene expression, and convinced themselves that they were dealing with a straightforward process – hence their initial decision to call the technology of altering crops 'genetic engineering'. They believed that each gene had a single, unique, independent function, and that moving a gene from one plant or animal to another would allow that gene to express that particular function wherever and however it was located.

Even back in the mid-1990s, some scientists said that pro-GM geneticists were oversimplifying gene expression. They pointed out that the geneticists were ignoring relationships that genes have with other genes and relationships that groups of genes have with other groups elsewhere in an organism’s DNA. They pointed out too that the geneticists were ignoring the other factors that effect the regulation of gene expression.

We now know that these scientists were right, and that gene expression is more complex than was initially supposed. Gene organisation within the genome is not random. Genes tend to be grouped into coordinated functional units, and control of expression is far more complex than was initially supposed. The emerging science of epigenetics has demonstrated that, for example, mice with identical DNA can turn out to have extreme variations, between disease-prone, obese animals and fit, slim animals, simply because of the impact that dietary inputs and environmental chemical exposures have on their DNA control mechanisms during pregnancy. Much of the scientific case for GM crop technology is based on a grossly over-simplified view – that genes work as isolated units of information – which we now know to be wrong.

One consequence of the disruptive effect of the GM transformation process is that it can negatively affect crop performance (for example ‘yield drag’ seen with GM soya). Another consequence is the production of novel toxins and allergens, as well as disrupted nutritive value.

The third sin

Instead of embracing new scientific discoveries in this area, the many scientists involved in promoting GM technology have found a number of ways of trying to disguise or ignore the fact that the processes they are promoting are much more complex than they claim.

For example, transferring genes (usually at random) from one plant to another is a far more uncertain, unstable and disruptive process than was originally thought. In order to avoid the costly and time-consuming safety testing of foods produced through this new technology, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) – a body devoted not to public health but to facilitating international trade – came up with the concept of 'substantial equivalence'. This assumes that if relatively simplistic chemical analyses of, say, a GM sweetcorn's protein, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, find values that can also be found within the range of non-GM sweetcorn varieties, then the GM sweetcorn is deemed to be indistinguishable from, and therefore as safe as, non-GM sweetcorn.

Substantial equivalence was used to deny the need for any biological or toxicological safety testing of GM foods, because GM food was now assumed to be the same as the equivalent food that people had been eating for hundreds of years. This was a political and commercial decision, taken in consultation with, and on behalf of, a small number of large GM companies. It had nothing to do with science. We now know it was opposed by some scientists in the US Federal Drug Administration (FDA), but it was pushed through by political appointees to the FDA. The same approach has spread to many other countries, although some are now less enthusiastic, and the European Union avoids using the term “substantial equivalence”, redefining it as the “comparative assessment” process. However, proponents of the European concept of “comparative assessment” admit that it has much the same meaning as “substantial equivalence”.

An increasing number of detailed biological tests comparing GM and equivalent non-GM crops have now been carried out, not just looking at gross values but rather the spectrum of different types of proteins and other biochemical components. These studies, though few in number, clearly show major differences between the GM and non-GM plants, demonstrating that they are not substantially equivalent. This science invalidates the use of substantial equivalence to assess the safety of GM crops and food, but it is still used in the USA and forms the basis of safety assessments of GM crops in Europe.

There is still no requirement, in any country in the world, for GM food to be tested in long-term or lifetime animal feeding trials. Nor is there any requirement to test GM food by feeding it to several generations of mice or rats, to see whether it has any identifiable impact. So there is no regulatory requirement for GM food to be tested to see whether it is safe for humans to eat.

In response, it is claimed that much non-GM plant breeding involves chemical or radiological mutagenesis, and thus gives rise to the same risks as GM crop breeding, so it would be wrong to apply extra controls on GM crops and food. It is true that chemical and radiation-induced mutation crop breeding is highly mutagenic. But there is a good reason why it is not widely used – it produces a large proportion of unhealthy and deformed plants. In fact, some scientists have called for plants produced by mutation breeding to be tested in the same way as GM crops.

In addition, there is the possibility that there are features of the GM process itself that may affect the genome that are not possible in non-GM crop breeding. And GM allows a gene to be inserted in radically different foodstuffs. For example, in the case of allergic reactions, affected individuals could no longer simply avoid foods they know they are allergic to, as GM crop breeding could allow a toxic, allergenic or sensitising protein to be inserted in any food, with no warning labels.

The fourth sin

While one result of the adoption of the US interpretation of the unscientific concept of 'substantial equivalence' was to discourage scientific studies of the impact of eating GM foods, in practice, the GM companies try to make sure that studies cannot be conducted at all by independent scientists. As an editorial in Scientific American in August 2009 said:

“It is impossible to verify that genetically modified crops perform as advertised. That is because agritech companies have given themselves veto power over the work of independent researchers…. Research on genetically modified seeds is still published, of course. But only studies that the seed companies have approved ever see the light of a peer-reviewed journal. In a number of cases, experiments that had the implicit go-ahead from the seed company were later blocked from publication because the results were not flattering.... It would be chilling enough if any other type of company were able to prevent independent researchers from testing its wares and reporting what they find.… But when scientists are prevented from examining the raw ingredients in our nation's food supply or from testing the plant material that covers a large portion of the country's agricultural land, the restrictions on free inquiry become dangerous.”

One of the consequences of this determination to stop science working when it comes to research on GM crops, is that numerous pro-GM scientists have fallen into the unscientific trap of claiming that, because GM food has now been eaten by millions of people for several years, it is clearly 'safe'. As most GM food has been eaten in the USA, and in the period since GM food has been produced, the US has suffered a catastrophic increase in diet-related ill health, these same scientists might as well claim that GM food is extraordinarily damaging to human health. Because there has been no GM food labelling in the US, no post-market monitoring, and no epidemiological research, we simply don't know. But to claim that the absence of evidence of harm from GM food means that there is evidence that GM food is safe, when none of the necessary research has been done, shows a wilful disregard for basic scientific principles.

The fifth sin

Although proper studies are difficult to carry out because of the problems of obtaining samples of GM material, some studies have been done looking at the impact of GM diets on animals. Worryingly, these studies, conducted by independent scientists, show negative health effects.

The first and best known of these studies was carried out in Scotland by Dr Arpad Pusztai. His study, and others that have been conducted since, suggest that some adverse impact was being caused to multiple organ systems in the test animals. None of these studies can claim to be conclusive, and most have not been well funded, but they show evidence of potential harm that the scientists involved say needs to be further investigated. All the scientists have been viciously attacked by pro-GM scientists.

Re-evaluations by independent scientists of data obtained from the GM crop industry’s own animal feeding studies also demonstrate clear signs of toxicity. The organs consistently affected are the liver and kidney, the two major detoxification organs, with ill effects on the heart, adrenal glands, spleen, and blood cells also being observed.

What is needed are long-term and lifetime animal feeding studies to see the effects of eating GM foods over an extended period – reflecting the real-life exposure of humans. In addition, multigenerational studies are needed to see the effects on reproduction and future generations. Such studies are compulsory for pesticides and pharmaceutical drugs, but not for GM foods – even though the exposure is likely to be longer-term for a food than for a pesticide or drug.

One of the great things about science is that, in theory at least, it should not be subject to the whims of those in power or those with money. Anyone making a claim on the basis of scientific evidence should publish their evidence in a form that will allow any other scientist to repeat their experiment, and show whether they are right or wrong. Some of the richest and most powerful organisations in the world attacked Dr Pusztai and his work, particularly the UK’s Royal Society. However, to their shame, not one of these critics has seen fit to do what any student learning about scientific method would be told should be the first step, namely, to repeat the experiment. An experiment can be repeated with any modifications that would, in the eyes of the critic, make the study acceptable.

Work done by a young Russian scientist, and by Austrian scientists, has been attacked in exactly the same way, and no effort has been made to repeat those experiments in order to justify these attacks. These personal attacks have sometimes been coupled with threats that the scientists might lose their jobs or funding (as indeed Dr Pusztai did). But not once anywhere in the world has a pro-GM scientific body or GM company responded to a scientific study they do not like, by doing what anyone who cared about science should do – repeating the experiment.

The sixth sin

One response to these criticisms from the pro-GM scientists is to claim that there is in fact a rigorous, scientific, regulatory regime, for example in the USA and EU, which proves that GM crops are safe. The regulatory regime for GM crops is not based on science, but rather on selected information from GM companies. And because of the perceived need for commercial confidentiality, not all the research the companies give to the regulators is published.

The gold standard of science is peer reviewed, published research. Open publication is fundamental to the integrity of science, and a prerequisite to another key principle on which science rests, namely the fact that conclusions can always be tested by repeating the research. In the area of GM crops, as in some others, what is claimed to be 'scientific' regulation is based on a perversion of science – secretive and (because there is no requirement to publish or even list all studies) possibly highly selective, corporate information.

Independent researchers and NGOs like Greenpeace have used court orders (under EU Freedom of Information laws) to obtain access to previously secret corporate studies. Re-evaluation of the industry raw data shows that the scientists involved selectively studied only a few questions, and interpreted what little evidence they had in ways that favoured corporate interests. Major flaws in the experimental design were evident, which served to mask rather than reveal the effects of the GM transformation process. Nevertheless, these short, 90-day rat feeding studies did show clear signs of toxicity arising from the GM compared to non-GM equivalent feed. If such signs of toxicity are evident after just 90 days, then clearly, lifelong (2-year) studies are urgently needed.

The seventh sin

Almost all the claims made for GM crops by proponents of the technology are claims about benefits that GM technology will deliver in future. This is not a new phenomenon – such claims were being made in the late 1990s, when GM crops were first introduced. Claims that GM crops will solve world hunger, or will deliver drought resistant, nitrogen-fixing or nutrient rich crops, are not science but prophecy.
The pro-GM lobby and the media treat these claims as if they are science, but none of them are based on scientific evidence. They are opinions, not science, often expressed by companies or scientists with a strong financial interest in seeing them treated as fact.

To summarise: first, the pro-GM lobby has deliberately conflated opposition to particular commercial products, GM crops, with opposition to science.

Second, the pro-GM lobby has failed to acknowledge our growing understanding of the complexity of gene expression. They have ignored new developments in science which have added complexity and uncertainty to what they initially assumed was a simple process.

Third, the pro-GM lobby invented and interpreted the pseudo-scientific and anti-scientific concept of substantial equivalence, and then defended it as if it had some scientific merit, which it does not.

Fourth, the pro-GM lobby has deliberately prevented independent research into the safety of GM food, by denying the scientists the samples they require to do such work, and has then claimed that there is evidence that GM foods are safe to eat, confusing the absence of evidence of harm with evidence of safety.

Fifth, the relatively small but growing number of scientific studies that have looked at the long term health consequences of eating GM food have raised serious grounds for concern. But instead of following scientific principles and repeating disputed experiments, the pro-GM lobby has only attacked the research and the integrity of the scientists involved.

Sixth, the pro-GM lobby has claimed that the regulatory regimes for GM crops in America and the EU provide scientific proof that GM crops are safe, while in fact these regulatory regimes rely on limited company information, not science. When problems show up even in these limited industry studies, they have been ignored.

Seventh, the pro-GM lobby presents endless claims of future benefits and performance of GM crops as if these are science rather than prophecies.

When the history of the changes in the public understanding of science and public confidence in science over the last fifteen years comes to be written, I believe that the pro-GM lobby's misuse and abuse of science will be seen to have had a chilling impact. These people, organisations and companies have been responsible for part at least of the sad decline in both public understanding and confidence in science and scientific evidence.

Peter Melchett is Policy Director at the Soil Association.
Thanks to: Claire Robinson, GMWatch; Professor Andy Stirling, University of Sussex; Professor Erik Millstone, University of Sussex; and Dr Michael Antoniou, King’s College London School of Medicine, for their comments on the draft of this paper
.

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/271944/wwf_and_monsanto_is_gm_soy_now_okay.html

Awesome post and thanks for the link.
 
Interesting article in The Ecologist {see it in post 140}:

The GM lobby and its 'seven sins against science' by Peter Melchett, 31st December, 2012

The pro-GM lobby has sought to take the 'scientific high-ground' by positioning itself as the voice of reason and progress, while painting its opponents as unsophisticated 'anti-science' luddites. In a scathing response Peter Melchett turns the tables .....
Yes it is. Thanks; however, it too is biased. For example, "sin 7" is that not all benefits promised by GMFs have been delivered. They may (or may not) be delivered later, but many benefits have been delivered. To see some good in GMFs they do not need to abolish hunger everywhere in the world!

I tend to be a supporter of GMFs as thus far, the benefits are vastly greater than any damage done. One "flaw" of GMFs is common in new medical drugs too: Traditional ways of improving foods (or medicines*) have provided more important benefits to mankind than GMFs have, but can not produce corporate profits (at least not exclusively to any one company as they can not be patented or have long expired patents*). This means that GMFs (and new drugs) do, as article notes, have strong advocates in the corporate world. - That is more a fault of the capitalistic system than GMFs, but like GMFs, the capitalistic system has many compensating large benefits, so with some badly needed modifications, I favor it too..

Possibly true a few people, with a unique set of genes, may even be killed by GMFs, but all must die some way some day. More important IMHO, is that GMFs are reducing the much greater number dying now of malnutrition or even starvation. This is not to say that no other way to feed them is possible - just that in the capitalistic system, in many poor countries, lack of money can kill you.

* Little known is how aspirin was discovered: In the middle ages of Europe, the "Doctrine of Signatures" was widely believed by most Christians. It stated that a kind, loving God would provide cures for diseases AND that their would be some signature (clues) as to where to look for the cure. Usually it was the shape of the plant not the location that was the clue. Colds and fevers were then (and still today) associated with getting cold and damp as one does when wading thru river or swamp. What is common near these wet places? -Answer: the willow tree. Back then extracts of roots and bark were common medicines (still are in rural Brazil**). As it turns out, molecules very much like, if not identical to, Aspirin are found in these extracts of the willow tree. The Bayer chemical company noted, (just as happens today with chemical / drug companies) that some of these natural medicines, including willow extract, did work. So, using their skills, they found the active ingredients and made one synthetically we call Aspirin.

** A few years ago, one rural man, who stripped a little bark from one tree to make a tea for his sick wife, was sent to jail! As lumber companies often pay men who cut down large valuable individual trees for your beautiful wood furniture***, and then to hide their crime, burn down many acres of woods, the public out cry, following newspaper article about man in jail for making a bark tea for sick wife, set him free.

*** If worried about loss of Brazilain forests, don´t buy beautiful wood furniture. Also don´t blame the usually poor man who cut down the tree to get from it more than a year´s wages at the minimum wage! If you must blame some one - look in the mirror.
 
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Bugs don't have stomachs.
From Wikipedia,
Insect_anatomy_diagram.svg
#13 is labeled "mid-gut (stomach)"

Now watch him come back with something like "that's not a bug".
 
GM crops:
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-03/02/content_16269178.htm said:
China was the world's sixth-largest grower of biotech crops in 2012, the same as a year ago, the report by the International Service for the Acquisition of Agri-Biotech Applications, or ISAAA, said.

The nation's total growing area for biotech crops stood at 4 million hectares, with cotton the dominant crop, the report, released on Friday, said. More than 7.2 million resource-poor Chinese farmers on small holdings grow less than 4 million hectares of biotech cotton, ISAAA data showed. This means a biotechnology adaptation rate as high as 80 percent, with every farmer cultivating half a hectare on average.

Globally, an unprecedented 100-fold increase was recorded in the biotech crop growing area, which surged from 1.7 million hectares in 1996 to 170 million hectares in 2012. "This makes biotech crops the fastest-adopted crop technology in recent history," said Clive James, ISAAA chairman and founder.

Last year also saw developing countries growing more biotech crops than rich nations, for the first time since the introduction of biotech crops two decades ago, according to the ISAAA. "This growth is contrary to the prediction of critics, who in 1996 prematurely declared that biotech crops were only for industrial countries," James said.
 
Can you imagine how careless places like China are going to be about ecological hazards when they allow smoke to pollute their own cities until a lot of their people have to go around wearing masks and can barely breathe?
Great ain´t it? They will do all the in vivo testing for us. :cool:
 
Great ain´t it? They will do all the in vivo testing for us
You will not be left out, of the consequences of the third world testing programs - considering the beneficiaries of the fortunes that will be made regardless of the consequences, not even politically.

billy said:
I tend to be a supporter of GMFs as thus far, the benefits are vastly greater than any damage done
You don't know what the benefits are, or what the damages will be. Ignorance is not good support for such huge and short term (human life time) irreversible experiments (economic, ecological, nutritional, political, environmental, medical) with everyone's food supply.

In the long list of incurred and likely damages not being considered by GM proponents, thsi one stands out for me: opportunity cost. As with the most recent corporate power grab in the agricultural arena, hybrid seeds, the alleged benefits of GM crops are calculated by comparison with the agricultural practices of centuries long past, and the cost of failing to gain the benefits of modern science applied to those practices, the cost of redirecting our public research efforts and resources into these corporate benefits, is overlooked. We could, for example, almost certainly, have obtained by now true-breeding maize and soybeans and so forth that match performance with the hybrids - and we would then have a wide variety of high performance crops for which we were not dependent on and perennially indebted to a couple of large corporations in control of the foundation of our food supply. The situation with GMOs as developing now will be even more limited, and expensive, in its options.
 
Ignorance is not good support for such huge and short term (human life time) irreversible experiments (economic, ecological, nutritional, political, environmental, medical) with everyone's food supply.

Agreed. Fortunately we are not operating in a state of ignorance.
 
... You don't know what the benefits are ...
True, but this is not my field and I´m to lazy to search but quite sure higher yield, less losses to pests/bugs, more balanced mix of vitamins in some corps, better shelf life for lower cost due to lower store losses, etc. can be confirmed.
or what the damages will be. Ignorance is not good support for such huge and short term (human life time) irreversible experiments
why are they "irreversible"? I´m sure the PA Dutch who don´t even ride in cars are still planting the same seed types as 100+ years ago. etc. Norway operates a seed depository in a naturally cold artic cave which holds almost all of the seeds of any interest in the world - not for fear of GM contamination etc. but fear of some fungus or blight wipping out all that grow in fields. IMHO, everyone wanting to plant the same "very best" seeds is much more of a danger than if they planted 20 different varieties of GM seeds.
... In the long list of incurred and likely damages not being considered by GM proponents, this one stands out for me: opportunity cost. As with the most recent corporate power grab in the agricultural arena, hybrid seeds, the alleged benefits of GM crops are calculated by comparison with the agricultural practices of centuries long past,...
Why would a farmer do that when deciding what seed to use? I think he considers the GM seed vs the alternatives available NOW, not 100+ years ago. Most of the elevations of farm land cost has very little to do with GM corportations but is due to wealthy people wanting some real assets like gold, etc. and land is better than gold as it is productive as well as inflation protection.
the cost of failing to gain the benefits of modern science applied to those practices, the cost of redirecting our public research efforts and resources into these corporate benefits, is overlooked.
I don´t there is much truth in that. County agents still speak of crop rotation, soil testing to see what fertilizers are actually needed to reduce excesive use (cost and water pollution etc.) Do you know of ANY government (instead of private) funds developing GM seeds, etc. OR ARE YOU just blowing hot air. - I bet Monsanto etc. would not even accept public funds as that would greatly damage their patents value.
We could, for example, almost certainly, have obtained by now true-breeding maize and soybeans and so forth that match performance with the hybrids - and we would then have a wide variety of high performance crops for which we were not dependent on and perennially indebted to a couple of large corporations in control of the foundation of our food supply. The situation with GMOs as developing now will be even more limited, and expensive, in its options.
Who would have done this non-GM development of better seeds and who stopped them from doing it?

Do you think there is some government agent inspecting farms to prevent farmers from keeping records about which bull and cow made the calf that grew to full weight fast? or making framer plow under two geneticaly different strands of tomatos planted so close they may cross fertilzed and make a better than GM developed tomato? Again if this "would have happen" -who stopped it? Or is that just some wild false claim?
 
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billvon said:
Agreed. Fortunately we are not operating in a state of ignorance.
To the small extent we are not ignorant - such as the inevitability of resistance developing to Bt, which we know from evolutionary theory and generations field research and experience - what we know warns us against creating dependence on corporate dominated GM tech.
why are they "irreversible"?
Their consequences of their industrial scale adoption destroy the economic and political, as well as physical, resource base. Bt resistance, once developed and spread, is essentially permanent. Seed stores and landraces, once gone, take years to replenish even if the original stocks exist somewhere. Smaller farms once incorporated into big ones take generations and political disasters to recreate, and their soil fertility buildup etc (if well run) may be as irrecoverable as their wetland industrially drained.
billy said:
I´m to lazy to search but quite sure higher yield, less losses to pests/bugs, more balanced mix of vitamins in some corps, better shelf life for lower cost due to lower store losses, etc. can be confirmed.
You are wrong about that. I have pointed this out to you several times now - if you are too lazy to Google even the simple stuff for yourself, at least pay attention when other people point to the obvious for you, OK?

The GM crops actually in commercial production are somewhat lower yielding per acre than comparable non-GM crops, almost always (think about it - there is no free lunch, the plant is devoting resources to expressing these complex introduced genetics); the alleged prevention of losses to pests and bugs are often phantom, and so far always temporary fixes with permanent damages (resistance, predator suppression, farmer dependence, ecological kickback - as with any overused and indiscriminately applied pesticide or herbicide); the promising and desirable vitamin balance stuff is still in beta and small scale in even its first attempts (various problems, including economic and political);

The better shelf life, although even that in GM form it is still mostly potential, I will give you - that, I think, is of all the promises one of the most likely to actually pan out. That kind of boost to the corporate bottom line is what this is all about, so far in the real world.
billy said:
Why would a farmer do that when deciding what seed to use? I think he considers the GM seed vs the alternatives available NOW,
The third world farmers involved in this are not comparing options and making an informed choice among equally available alternatives, any more than the US farmers were involved in the choice to concentrate public research efforts and economic alternatives on hybrids and their needs, and the other desires of industrial corporate agriculture. No Indian farmer can get a special low interest loan and fertilizer discounts to plant a standard bred rice that exists only in a research plot somewhere, for example - if he even knows about it. There is no market choice here - what's happening is an industrial power play, a colonization of a kind. The choices being offered the farmers are not at all as you describe.

billy said:
Who would have done this non-GM development of better seeds and who stopped them from doing it?
The public land grant research universities of the US and several other countries, various private foundations, and the corporate interests who stood to gain, of course - the same people who built the American agriculture empire, the green revolution, and the knowledge base under the entire field of industrial agriculture, including the hybrid seeds and the GM crops after their efforts were diverted (by corporate money and its political influence) to these higher private profit areas.

Nothing "stopped" them. The money and political pressure weighed in on the side of encouraging the more business-friendly directions of research, is all.
billy said:
IMHO, everyone wanting to plant the same "very best" seeds is much more of a danger than if they planted 20 different varieties of GM seeds.
In the real world the situation is exactly the opposite: several hundred landraces of various crops with dozens of sources and adaptations and choices vs four or five corporate patented near clones of industrial seeds ->deliberately chosen for uniformity in somatotype and genetics, even before being cloned from near-identical genetic modifications <-. We have seen many, many examples of stuff like this already, from which we were usually bailed out by luck and inefficiency (the presence of backup) - this is not arcane stuff. An incoming example you should get familiar with, if you aren't, is rubber - the current industrial high yield rubber trees covering thousands of square kilometers of SE Asia all belong to a very narrow genetic selection of an already narrowed genetic selection (two historical selection steps) of one variety of rubber tree from one small area just upriver from the mouths of the Amazon. As it happens, this narrow selection of a narrow selection is from one of the varieties most vulnerable to a particular fungus disease that occasionally afflicts wild rubber trees in Brazil, where the scattering and genetic variability of the native rubber trees keeps in in check. This disease wipes out entire plantations in a few months, normally, when it takes hold. So far, the spores have not made it to SE Asia. That is luck. Luck of that kind, as the Irish discovered, runs out.

billy said:
I don´t there is much truth in that. County agents still speak of crop rotation, soil testing to see what fertilizers are actually needed to reduce excesive use (cost and water pollution etc.)
You are two generations behind the curve here - industrial agriculture kills the small farm, third world industrial agriculture does not bother with county agents (Monsanto bribes at the national level), etc. Google is your friend.

Do you know of ANY government (instead of private) funds developing GM seeds, etc.
The corporate/university partnerships involved in GM tech are almost all government supported to one extent or another. I live near the University of Minnesota, a public land grant institution that a couple of generations ago operated for the benefit of the family farmers who sent their children as well as their tax dollars to it in good faith (and were repaid, after a while, with hybrid corn sold to and patented by various seed companies instead of true bred given to them, fertilizer and pesticide dependencies, etc). The role of such institutions in the agricultural improvements currently feeding the planet is well known - suffice it for illustration to point out that Norman Borlaug got his start as a researcher here.

I doubt there is or ever has been any purely private research into genetic modification - the final tweaks and production details, and of course the final patent and ownership rights, are of course often private, but the basic work has been pretty much university and related foundation based from the beginning. Monsanto puts up some of the money, of course.

Here's how it works at its best and least corrupt:
wiki said:
Plant Genetic Systems (PGS), since 2002 part of Bayer CropScience, is a biotech company located in Ghent, Belgium. The focus of its activities is the genetic engineering of plants. The company is best known for its work in the development of insect-resistant transgenic plants.

Its origin goes back to the work of Marc Van Montagu and Jeff Schell at the University of Ghent who were among the first to assemble a practical system for genetic engineering of plants.
The expensive and uncertain research on the social dime, the commercial exploitation taken private.
 
... Their consequences of their industrial scale adoption destroy the economic and political, as well as physical, resource base. Bt resistance, once developed and spread, is essentially permanent. Seed stores and landraces, once gone, take years to replenish even if the original stocks exist somewhere. Smaller farms once incorporated into big ones take generations and political disasters to recreate, and their soil fertility buildup etc (if well run) may be as irrecoverable as their wetland industrially drained. You are wrong about that. {Benefits much larger than damaged done} I have pointed this out to you several times now - if you are too lazy to Google even the simple stuff for yourself, at least pay attention when other people point to the obvious for you, OK?
OK, You forced me to do a brief search. I trust SCIENTIFIC STUDIES reported in the Guardian newspaper, National Academies of Science, and National Geographic etc for dozens of other peer-reviewed articles included in first quote below more than your or other individual opinions. I.e. this first article quoted below below is a "meta-study" summarizing the results of many dozen, perhaps 50, other scientific studies, with bold added by me to facilitate a quick skim.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2010/apr/21/gm-crops-benefit-farmers said:
Last year, 14 million farmers in 25 countries grew GM crops commercially, over 90% of them small farmers in developing countries, according to ISAAA. I've been studying the impacts of GM crops for the past 12 years. Given the growth in adoption rates around the world and the increasing number of studies that have been done to assess the impact of the technology on farmers, I was interested in looking at how the results of all these studies stacked up. In my review of global farmer surveys, results from 12 countries indicate that most surveyed farmers have increased yields, decreased costs and improved economic performance. The benefits were found to be greatest for the mostly small farmers in developing countries. The average yield improvements for developing countries range from 16% for insect-resistant corn to 30% for insect-resistant cotton, with an 85% yield increase observed in a single study on herbicide-tolerant corn. On average, developed-country farmers' reported yield increases range from no change for herbicide-tolerant cotton to a 7% increase for insect-resistant cotton.

{A Billy T insert: that low incremental benefit for "developed-country farmers" is surely due to fact "developed-country farmers" can afford and do use several times more insecticides sprayed into our enviroment and eventually into your tap water. (Insecticides are designed to be hard for natural processes to destroy.) GM crops can make your drinking water safer. Stronger doses of herbicides, like glifosato for "Roundup Ready" crops, are applied to GM crops that can tolerate it well, but decomposes soon after killing the weeds before getting to your water tap. Unlike weeds, insects can fly into your treated field from miles away so insecticides must be long lasting.}

It is often claimed that biotech crops are more expensive for farmers. However, the evidence shows that while seed costs (including technology fees) were nearly always higher for farmers who planted GM crops, this was usually offset by decreased costs of pesticides. The combination of increased yields and decreased costs has translated to improved economic performance in nearly three-quarters of the cases studied. And the economic advantage may be even greater, as surveys have also found that farmers value additional cost savings that are not included in a traditional accounting of costs, such as management time savings, human and environmental safety and reduced yield risk.

GM crops were also found to help agriculture play a crucial role in preserving the natural environment by reducing the number of insecticide applications on insect-resistant crops and facilitating reduced tillage on herbicide-tolerant crops.

In addition to economic benefits, the NRC study also documented environmental gains. The NRC study was conducted by an expert committee of 10 academic researchers from across the country which reviewed the available evidence on the impacts of GM crops in the US. Environmental benefits included reduced insecticide use on insect-resistant corn and cotton. The panel concluded that the soil and water quality improvements resulting from reduced tillage could be the greatest environmental benefit of GM crops, but is poorly tracked to date.

The Brazilian study was conducted by Céleres Ambiental, a Brazilian consultancy that has been monitoring the impact of GM crops in Brazil for the local seed industry. The survey covered 360 farmers from 10 states, finding that the aggregate benefits of the technology reached $3.6bn. The largest share of the benefits was due to reduced production costs. Yield gains were observed primarily for cotton and corn.

The benefits of already commercialized GM crop technology have been demonstrated, the result of the spillover of technologies originally targeted at farmers in industrialized countries. Field trials in India with Bt aubergine found a 42% reduction in total insecticide use and 100% increase in yields over similar non-Bt varieties.

Here are some of the scientific studies this "meta-study" of studies is based on:

"A review of peer-reviewed surveys of farmers worldwide who are using the technology compared to farmers who continue to plant conventional crops, published last week in Nature Biotechnology,* found that by and large farmers have benefited. Another report** released last week by the National Research Council in the US concluded that many American farmers have achieved more cost-effective weed control and reduced losses from insect pests. And a survey of farmers in Brazil,*** which is a leader in global adoption of GM crops, shows benefits for soybean, cotton and corn growers ..."

* http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v28/n4/pdf/nbt0410-319.pdf Note this is also a meta-study giving results from many other studies done in different parts of the world.
Thus this 12 years in the making Guardian article is incorporating, either directly or indirectly, the results of at least 100 scientific studies !!

** Link in text does not work for me, but I think this National Academies of Sciences report is what is referred to. It states:
"A new report from the National Academies' National Research Council. The committee that wrote the report emphasized it was not aware of any evidence suggesting foods on the market today are unsafe to eat as a result of genetic modification. And it said that {there is} no strict distinction exists between the health and environmental risks posed by plants genetically engineered through modern molecular techniques and those modified by conventional breeding practices." Read full Report by free down load here: http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=9795

*** That link in the text did not work for me either, so I search on Brazil and GMO and found this well balanced review (tells of the failures too**** that was originally published in the National Geographic magazine WITH MANY INTERESTING FACTS, include the following two.):
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/food-how-altered/ said:
(1)... corn genetically engineered for insect resistance may enhance safety for human and animal consumption {I.e. be significantly safer to eat and common non-GM corn} . Corn damaged by insects often contains high levels of fumonisins, toxins made by fungi that are carried on the backs of insects and that grow in the wounds of the damaged corn. Lab tests have linked fumonisins with cancer in animals, and they may be potentially cancer-causing to humans. Among people who consume a lot of corn—in certain parts of South Africa, China, and Italy, for instance—there are high rates of esophageal cancer, which scientists associate with fumonisins. Studies show that most Bt corn has lower levels of fumonisins than conventional corn damaged by insects.
and
(2) that in the US about 100 people, mainly youth, die each year from reactions to eating peanuts which GM peanuts will probably soon save. ... Just as when the use of GM corn is more wide spread, hundreds (thousands ?) will not die of the cancers that fumonisins toxins in corn now cause each year

**** No "failure" resulted in human deaths as problems were caught in the very extensive testing GM, and only MG foods, must under go. (If the peanuts in the market were a product of GM, then they would never have made into the market place as every year they kill many more people than GM foods have since the frist GM food was made!) Do you have a link to even one human death defintely known to be caused by eating GM food?

Before I join your efforts to ban GM food, despite their many well established benefits and lack of even a single well documented death caused by GM foods, I´ll ask you to join me in efforts to outlaw the growing and sale of that known killer of many: non-GM peanuts.

The *** link also states there has been for nearly two decades, the opportunity for GM foods to kill many people as follows:
" Most people in the United States don't realize that they've been eating genetically engineered foods since the mid-1990s. More than 60 percent of all processed foods on U.S. supermarket shelves—including pizza, chips, cookies, ice cream, salad dressing, corn syrup, and baking powder—contain ingredients from engineered soybeans, corn, or canola. In the past decade or so, the biotech plants that go into these processed foods have leaped from hothouse oddities to crops planted on a massive scale..."

I use canola as it seems to be the healthiest mix of oils, but know it is GM modified from the poisonous rape seed.
... One GMO product of interest is "Golden Rice", a variety rich in vitamin A precursors.
Is it good or bad?
golden-rice-hero.jpg
Golden Rice.
According to the article ** above, thousand in the third world now go blind each year due to absence of vitamin A in their diets. The yellow GM rice is rich in Beta-carotene which converts to Vitamin A in bodies that lack it. A few hundred each year who went blind die annually - often because their poor societies can not prevent thats as there are hundreds of ways being blind can kill. This is the reason the Gates medical foundation developed the GM yellow rice. Does that answer your question?
 
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**** No "failure" resulted in human deaths as problems were caught in the very extensive testing GM, and only MG foods, must under go. (If the peanuts in the market were a product of GM, then they would never have made into the market place as every year they kill many more people than GM foods have since the frist GM food was made!) Do you have a link to even one human death defintely known to be caused by eating GM food?

I'll just briefly comment again that it has nothing or very little to do with people dying or getting sick from eating GM food... in fact I hope they all die from eating them. That seems to be the only thing that's going to wake people up.

It's the at-first subtle incompatibility with the organisms that eat them and their irreversible proliferation and forced replacement of the wild types that's the issue. They will never be able to make a test to see whether one food is better than another, they don't even know whether eggs are good for us or bad for us after years and years of research.

The GMs, after an awful lot of testing, will not make us visibly sick, but they will not be completely compatible with us because we have not co-evolved with them. To deny that is to deny evolution.

There is also no dichotomy between "GM" and "non-GM". Some GM foods may not be so bad, while others could be absolutely devastating. Also, over time, foods are going to become more and more distant from natural foods because of GM.

It's not like: "we have the GM corn, and this is what we can expect from GM corn in the future". GM corn now is going to be even more GM in the future. It's continually changing and not because of biotech companies doing it. Natural corn is being run out of existence. GM has no inherent properties, there are no lessons that can be learned from "the GM foods" because GM could be anything.

There's a total ridiculous misunderstanding if you think that somehow GM is just ordinary food but "a bit different" and we'll see what it'll be like. GM could be ANYTHING. They could certainly intentionally make GM food that would be poisonous and kill everyone that ate it.

GM tomatoes aren't really "tomatoes", they are tomatoes + something else. Even if they look like tomatoes, they are not completely tomatoes. I think it's a fair statement to say that they're like tomatoes + some plastics. Now the plastics may not be enough to make people sick... but they're certainly not something that you should be eating. To allow that out into the ecosystem to replace natural foods for the rest of eternity...

Before I join your efforts to ban GM food, despite their many well established benefits and lack of even a single well documented death caused by GM foods, I´ll ask you to join me in efforts to outlaw the growing and sale of that known killer of many: non-GM peanuts.

This illustrates the general stupidity and fecklessness of many of these people, they have no ability to think properly or have any idea what life is about. Joining a cause isn't something that can be bought and sold or bartered, it's something people should do on principle. Saying "I'll do this if you do that", to try to invoke some sort of reaction in the minds of others is an obvious fallacy.

Added to this his idea that peanuts kill people but not GM food and therefore he has made some point is retarded nonsense showing he is incapable of any scientific thought.

Some of you/these people have extremely concerning misconceptions and attitudes about evolution and GM foods.
 
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