Fundamental(ist )Humor(this is not funny)

[davewhite04]

Hello there,

The Jews still don't recognise your jesus as a messiah, neither do muslims.

Some Jews do and as far as I know Muslims do too.

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

I don't see the relevance of asking this in this thread, however just this once I will answer two of the three.

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

What has this got to do with the price of cheese?

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

He was a descendant of David through Mary, plus Joseph was his legal father and therefore Jesus' claim to be from the House of David is covered both ways.

Hope this helps.

Dave

 

[Lemming3k]

Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased ”


Free Will.

God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

 

[davewhite04]

God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

Hello Lemming3k,

This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible.

Without going into anymore detail, could you please give me a yes or no answer, is the world better off because of the Bible?

Thanks

Dave

 

[Lemming3k]

This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible.

So am i not allowed to question it? I asked a question and was hoping for an answer.

Without going into anymore detail, could you please give me a yes or no answer, is the world better off because of the Bible?

My opinion is that no, its not.

 

[Adstar]

The whole point of the Bible is to give those who embrace the love of the truth (Jesus) the guidance they need to be strengthened in the faith.


The Bible is written in such a way, as to allow misinterpretation by those who do not have the love of the truth. God does not through His pearls before swine. The Meek seek the guidance of God and God reveals His Word to them in Scripture. The others can use Philosophy and theology and interpretations of man. That is, the proud can merrily make there way up a theological pathway to a dead end.

2 Timothy 3
15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If one has no faith in The Messiah Jesus then they have no chance of having the scriptures revealed to them.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[stretched]

Yo Dave,

Thanks for responding. Regarding yor response to my first question, the Bible could then be considered a guide to moral behaviour only and not an absolute book of rules? That I can understand and appreciate.

The reason I asked the second question regarding the literal and non-literal nature of the Bible, is that in answering hard questions like "Is Jesus God?" the literal interpretation would not suffice for an absolute "yes". So in this instance, interpretation could undermine the very foundation of Christianity.

Regarding question three, why is the message of Jesus not crystal clear? If he genuinely wants to save mankind from whatever sin he placed them into in the first place, why is the message not unambigious?

Did Jesus teach us firstly to love our fellow man or to love him?

Allcare.

 

[philocrazy]

hi boys and girls
have a nice one

Philosopher Philocrazy and a great humorist

 

[davewhite04]

Hello again,

So am i not allowed to question it? I asked a question and was hoping for an answer.

I did answer your question but you did not seem to accept it. It seems like you want me to say something that agrees with whatever you think.

Dave

 

[davewhite04]

Hello Stretched,

Regarding yor response to my first question, the Bible could then be considered a guide to moral behaviour only and not an absolute book of rules? That I can understand and appreciate.

Yes. And remember certain guides in the Old Testament were written for specific people in specific times. I provided a link earlier which helps clear up interpretation problems.

The reason I asked the second question regarding the literal and non-literal nature of the Bible, is that in answering hard questions like "Is Jesus God?" the literal interpretation would not suffice for an absolute "yes". So in this instance, interpretation could undermine the very foundation of Christianity.

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, as the scripture says. Some will say he is God so you would have to ask them how they arrived at that conclusion.

Regarding question three, why is the message of Jesus not crystal clear? If he genuinely wants to save mankind from whatever sin he placed them into in the first place, why is the message not unambigious?

Without blinding me with scripture, can you give me one example of what Jesus said that isn't crystal clear? If it is a parable then Jesus actually explained himself.

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Did Jesus teach us firstly to love our fellow man or to love him?

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How can you go wrong if you follow the above commandments?

Dave

 

[Lemming3k]

I did answer your question but you did not seem to accept it. It seems like you want me to say something that agrees with whatever you think.

You replied with 'This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible' and then asked me a question, but what you said does not answer what i asked.

 

[Lemming3k]

Adstar:

The whole point of the Bible is to give those who embrace the love of the truth (Jesus) the guidance they need to be strengthened in the faith.

How can it give guidance when it is deliberately written to allow misinterpretation? That is not what guidance is.

The Bible is written in such a way, as to allow misinterpretation by those who do not have the love of the truth. God does not through His pearls before swine. The Meek seek the guidance of God and God reveals His Word to them in Scripture.

So how do you know you havnt interpreted it wrong if it is written to allow that? How do you know that other peoples views on what the scripture means are not correct?
Everyone claims to have the truth when it comes to the bible, but you cant all be right as you have conflicting views amongst yourselves, and you all believe in the messiah.

 

[davewhite04]

Hello again Lemming3k,

You initially asked:

Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased?

My answer was Free Will. You then said:

God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

This is essentially the same question in different clothing.

You ignored my initial answer and continued to ask the same question, obviously oblivious to the fact that I had all ready shared my thoughts on it.

Dave

 

[Lemming3k]

You initially asked:
Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased?
My answer was Free Will.
You then said:
God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).
This is essentially the same question in different clothing.

So your basically saying he knew what we would do but wanted us to have free will to make it happen, he wanted people to interpret things incorrectly and cause suffering and pain, very enlightening. Also the question was slightly different, i asked why he did not rectify the problem, if free will remains your answer then thats fair enough.

You ignored my initial answer and continued to ask the same question, obviously oblivious to the fact that I had all ready shared my thoughts on it.

I ignored it yet i quoted it in my response and was oblivious to it, again very enlightening.

 

[davewhite04]

Hello Lemming3k,

very enlightening

I haven't come here to enlightening you. I presented a point explaining why two sociopaths could not have been following Christ. You are blaming God for making his book imperfect so that misinterpretations can occur, I am blaming man.

End of story.

Dave

 

[stretched]

Yo Dave,

Cool, I love your faith.

Quote davewhite04:
"Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, as the scripture says. Some will say he is God so you would have to ask them how they arrived at that conclusion."

I have posed the question on this board before - "is Jesus God?", and the answer seems to be unequivocally in one word, "yes". My question is then, "Who does Jesus pray to?" and who is he referring to when he talks about "My father"? If, as you say he is the son of god, how does one reconcile the Holy Trinity as three aspects of God in one, to the tenet of monotheism?

Without meaning to be pedantic or disrespectful, what would be the logical point of the text:
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above? And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

Allcare.

 

[Lemming3k]

You are blaming God for making his book imperfect so that misinterpretations can occur, I am blaming man.

For the record im not blaming god, i dont believe in god, so he is not an option to recieve blame(in fact i blame man, much like you but im sure for different reasons). I am trying to get an idea of how christians interpret things and why, who they feel is responsible for certain things and why.

 

[davewhite04]

Hello Stretched!

Please forgive the length of my post, but your questions aren't easily summarised. I had to use scripture also to back up my point of view.

I have posed the question on this board before - "is Jesus God?", and the answer seems to be unequivocally in one word, "yes". My question is then, "Who does Jesus pray to?" and who is he referring to when he talks about "My father"? If, as you say he is the son of god, how does one reconcile the Holy Trinity as three aspects of God in one, to the tenet of monotheism?

This is an area which is neither black nor white. If you ask a Christian who follows the doctrine of the Holy Trinity then most I should think will point you in the direction of a website that makes things even harder to understand(I have done this myself in the past). When I was new to Christianity I accepted the Holy Trinity, but the more I study the Bible the less sense this doctrine makes.

I believe there is only one God. He is the father figure that Jesus refers to in the New Testament, and in the English translated Old Testament he is called JEHOVAH.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

The Holy Spirit is also mentioned in both the Old and New Testament, and this is certainly an aspect of JEHOVAH as far as I can understand it.

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Jesus' position in all this can be first investigated with this scripture.

Luke 9
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

The above indicates that JEHOVAH vindicates anything that Jesus teaches, and confirms that he is his beloved son. Also:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If we look at the above verse and take heaven to mean universe, then it could be argued that Jesus is in fact a God in the strictest sense of the word.

Now from this we can see why it’s possible to create the Trinitarian idea, but as far as I can see it breaks the first commandment, which was still valid in Jesus’ time as he taught a flavour of it, which I posted earlier (The greatest commandment).

So, in my view there is only one God, his name translated to English is JEHOVAH. However, you cannot hope to be blessed with his presence unless Jesus intervenes or you go to Jesus first. We were cut off from God long ago, but he has given us a second chance through his son Jesus Christ.


What would be the logical point of the text:
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above?

The logical point of the verse you quoted back is that if you follow that commandment you will become godlike in a non judgemental sense. That single commandment encompasses all of the Ten Commandments. If you follow that one commandment then it becomes impossible to break the other commandments and you become a better person in God’s eyes and combined with the commandment you didn’t re-quote plus Jesus' teachings, in society’s eyes too in my point of view. Does this make sense?

The only way to learn about God these days is through the Bible, prayer/meditation, music, talking to Christians. If you keep knocking (prayer/bible study) with a sincere heart, you will find God, I promise, and once you do the love thing will happen naturally.

And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

I don’t believe God needs anything from us to be honest. I think us showing this unconditional adoration is beneficial to us, spiritually.

Stretched, you sound very sincere so I hope I answered your questions ok.

Dave

 

[Adstar]

Adstar:

How can it give guidance when it is deliberately written to allow misinterpretation? That is not what guidance is.

I have given the answer to this question. Go back to my post and take your time to read it .

So how do you know you havnt interpreted it wrong if it is written to allow that? How do you know that other peoples views on what the scripture means are not correct?

The faith that i hold or anyone holds is known by God, whatever my status as to holding to the truth it shall come to light on the day of judgment. As of now i am convicted of the truth of my faith. i embrace the Love of the Truth that is in Jesus my Messiah. Genuine conviction and joy in the message is my confidence.

Everyone claims to have the truth when it comes to the bible, but you cant all be right as you have conflicting views amongst yourselves, and you all believe in the messiah.

Yes that’s true there is a lot of false interpretation out there. You see satan does not bother false religion but he tries to overcome truth with a flood of deceptions. There are many different interpretations of the message of Jesus and only one is right.

To personalize this a bit i will give you an element of my faith that many who call themselves christians would disagree with but to which i believe is a central teaching of Jesus.

I believe that christians should take no part in worldly warfare. I believe that those who do take part are not following the Word of The Messiah Jesus and therefore are following another jesus of their own theological creation. let me post the scriptures that speak to my conscience:


Matthew 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


Matthew 5: 43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Romans 12:17-21
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.


II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."


Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."


Ephesians 6:4
"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."


Zechariah 4:6
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts."


Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Now if my conviction is right. This eliminates many so called christians from True Christianity. Many men are attracted to doctrines that they think are right and sound good. They heap up teachers to confirm what they want to hear, what they want to believe, what they think is just. satan is only too willing to set up false churches and religions to pander to mans pride in their own reasoning. But those that are meek in heart will place their faith in The Word and be guided to understanding by The Holy Spirit within them.

Matthew 7
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

All praise the Ancient of Days

 

[stretched]

Yo Dave,

Thanks for your time and response. I found this definition of the "Trinity" here: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2454

The Doctrine of Trinity

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity affirms that while God is one, He exists as three persons: The unknown God, creator and source of all life; Jesus Christ who has revealed the Father, and the Holy Spirit, the bond of love between Father and Son, who is always at work in transforming the world according to God’s purpose.

Here the statement "three persons" indicates a definite tritheist belief.

(and further from the same site)
Trinity is a mystery as well as a doctrine, which is beyond our intuitive recognition and faculty. One God in Three persons, that is the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

This mystery and concept does seem to point away from monotheism, so I understand your viewpoint Dave. But the above logic is flawed in that "mystery" is an acceptable tenet. If Jesus was the "Son of God" and not God, then the scenario becomes more comfortable. And yeah, if one accepts the doctrine of original sin then Jesus is the interface and God the computer. This is at least understandable.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above?

Quote davewhite04:
The logical point of the verse you quoted back is that if you follow that commandment you will become godlike in a non judgemental sense. That single commandment encompasses all of the Ten Commandments. If you follow that one commandment then it becomes impossible to break the other commandments and you become a better person in God’s eyes and combined with the commandment you didn’t re-quote plus Jesus' teachings, in society’s eyes too in my point of view. Does this make sense?

I am with you here. If your heart is in the right place, all else becomes clear and natural. So if my son loves and respects me, he would comfortably follow my example.

Quote stretch:
And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

Quote davewhite04:
I don’t believe God needs anything from us to be honest. I think us showing this unconditional adoration is beneficial to us, spiritually.

I agree with you here Dave, but then why did god create us? What is our ultimate purpose?

Yep Dave, I sincerely want to understand what gives you faith in your God, and I also want to understand how the diversity of religions and the faithfull are all convinced that their particular faith is the "Truth". What divine revelation makes humans follow their chosen God? Thanks for your input.

Allcare.

 

[Lemming3k]

Thankyou for the reply adstar.

I have given the answer to this question. Go back to my post and take your time to read it .

Perhaps i phrased my question badly, people who turn to the book for guidence arent getting it as it could be given, if guidence deliberately allows misinterpretation then it is rather poor guidence, i think you are trying to get at only those with love in their hearts choose the correct path after seeking guidence, i feel some people dont know any better than to do what their interpretation dictates and feel it is correct regardless of anything else.

There are many different interpretations of the message of Jesus and only one is right.

This is what im curious about, but i guess if the message is real i shall find out one day what its correct interpretation is.

To personalize this a bit i will give you an element of my faith that many who call themselves christians would disagree with but to which i believe is a central teaching of Jesus.
I believe that christians should take no part in worldly warfare. I believe that those who do take part are not following the Word of The Messiah Jesus and therefore are following another jesus of their own theological creation.

Despite being atheist i can in a way agree with and understand what you say, warfare doesnt benefit anyone and christians main belief is to be peaceful and loving so taking part in warfare is very much against what they should be doing, though of course we may find out one day that god finds it acceptable in certain circumstances. Someday we may see.

i embrace the Love of the Truth that is in Jesus my Messiah

I just wanted to pick up on this and get a complete definition to make sure im understanding it correctly.