Free Will vs Omniscience koan solved!!

Is Truthseeker in the 0.1% of christians who can logically think?

um.....NO

You still don't get it......Trying desperately to work out ways that your god is omniscient AND still allowing you to have freewill.

You can't have your cake and eat it....choose 1, but not both.
 
Buddihm has no concept of "gods" in it. A "god" is a type of entity, a powerful spirit. That's what the word means. Not a force, not a factor of nature like gravity, but a powerful type of spirit. If you wish to find another meaning, perhaps you should find another word. The only reason people often say "the wqord god simply represents the ultimate power of whatever type you believe in" is that chritianity tried to enforce the idea that their own little particular god was the only one in existence. And lately, with more and more rational thought going on (or so I like to believe :p ), and fewer people believing in gods and such, people have shifted their explanation to encompass things like quantum theories just so their religions are not left behind in the dust. But, again, the word "god" is a type of spirit and only that. It does not refer to any single entity or force, no matter how people would like to twist the language. (Yes, I prefer older meanings to many words, I don't like modern twists.)
 
truthseeker,

God gives you two ways: Heaven and Hell.
You choose it.
But an omniscient god will know before you are born what choice you are going to make, but it can't be your choice. He will have already decided who is going to heaven and hell from the moment he created the universe. And if he knows at the time of creation then what makes you think you have any choice in the matter?

Cris
 
Cris,

But an omniscient god will know before you are born what choice you are going to make, but it can't be your choice. He will have already decided who is going to heaven and hell from the moment he created the universe. And if he knows at the time of creation then what makes you think you have any choice in the matter?

The Bible says that His knowledge is based in our Hearts. We choose it, but God plans to send EVERYONE to the Heavens. It's a hard path though... and not everyone make it. He wants it, but it's us that have to do it...

PS: I'm trying to use the Bible as much as possible... than, I don't lose the focus on the Religion... ;)

Love,
Nelson
 
Truthseeker,

I’ll keep this simple so we can take this in stages.

The Bible says that His knowledge is based in our Hearts.
How does he obtain this knowledge before we are born?

Cris
 
Jan,

Yes but they have to live in the same harsh environment as myself.

Maybe so, but you can teach them knowledge of the self, that way they may not have to be reborn into this harsh environment in their next life. Try and understand that, although the birth of your children is sparked of by sexual intercourse of some kind, they themselves are more than a biological union.
What you suggest is religious doctrine, and I see no evidence for what you suggest is either true or has any value. Neither do I see anything other than a materialist reality. Consequently I would never teach anything that I am convinced is false.

If you create that kind of environment, how would they learn.
We learn through experience. This would be hampered if you wrapped them up in cotton wool.
I completely agree and that is the best approach in a materialist universe, but we have the issue of omnipotence here. Why would an omnipotent being who can create the universe and create life not also add all necessary knowledge to the beings he creates? With his perfection he could bypass the entire chronological set of experiences and give us full knowledge with equal if not better quality than if we had the experiences directly?

But if God is perfect and can do no wrong then he would not have made us so that he would lose us in the first place.

He didn’t, we became lost.
So either God is incompetent for letting this happen or he planned it. In which case he also wanted us to suffer and experience agony and pain, and that is not consistent with the concept of a loving god.

Why didn’t God provide adequate education for us? If he is so perfect then the education could have been perfect as well.

He has, but you are not interested in it.
If he had done a good job then he would not have lost my attention. I teach and lecture quite frequently and I know the issues of maintaining an interested audience. What you are saying here is that God was also an incompetent teacher.

The real danger in life is forgetfulness of ones spiritual identity.
You can’t forget something you never had.

Fortunately most scientists are atheists so you are in safe hands.

All of a sudden its gone cold in here.
Understandable since reality is often harsh and cold, and facing up to reality will seem far worse for those who live in a permanent state of emotional delusional fantasies.

Reality is tough, and the human race face many real dangers that can cause our extinction. If we are to survive we need to work hard at it. Hoping and wishing that a fantasy super father figure is looking after us is probably the greatest evil facing humanity, i.e. the fatalist attitudes sponsored by the irrationality of religions.

People generally do not ‘go’ for something unless they see a need. And I simply do not see any need for gods.

My car is a lovely dark green colour, are you saying I needed a car of that colour.
Yes if that satisfies an emotional need for pleasure.

But the alternative to intellect is emotion and that has repeatedly shown itself as one of the most unreliable methods for determining truth.

Nonsense, they are two different aspects of the human pysche. When both are used effectively you get a powerful personality.
Emotions guide you in the direction of personal pleasure and satisfaction. Independent truth may not result in accomplishing that desire. The intellect is capable of detecting independent truth; emotions cannot do that. The intellect and emotions can be and often are in conflict. If you allow emotions to dominate your decisions then you will fail to comprehend truth. Intellect must first be used to understand truth and then the emotions can be allowed to operate within those constraints. When emotions dominate then delusions are the result, and religions rest their survival on almost pure emotion.

A simple example: Some people are addicted to gambling. They could use their intellect to tell them that they cannot win, or rather the odds are heavily stacked against them. Their emotions tell them the perceived pleasure of immense wealth.

Why would I want to sacrifice my intellect in favor of a far less reliable mechanism?

Don’t sacrifice it, integrate them.
Explained above.

All activities are merely transient and temporary. But that process is almost purely intellect.

Then why is it that people who are not what you would call intellectual can understand this truth.
I guess this depends on what type of people you perceive that I perceive are intellectual. I suspect you have a stereotype in mind that I may well not share. Perhaps that is worth exploring further. If we overlap here then that would be worth understanding, since in most aspects of our debating we are opposites, potentially bitter opposites.

Cris
 
Here are somewhat lengthy definitions quoted from A Dictionary of Philosophy, (Anthony Flew) and are offered as “food for thought” --and for the benefit of any reader who might appreciate some clarification on how some modern thinkers understand and apply these terms.


Freewill and Determinism


“Two apparently opposed philosophical concepts: the former postulating that man is able to choose and act according to the dictates of his own will, the latter that all events including human actions, are predetermined. Perplexities arise for both the secularist and still more the theist. We cannot but assume in most everyday life that on many occasions we are free agents, able to do or to abstain from doing this or that at will. Yet it may also seem to be both a presupposition and an implication of the achievements of the sciences, and most importantly of the aspiring sciences of man, that there are in truth no such alternatives; and that everything, human conduct not excluded, really happens with absolute inevitability.

The philosophical problem is to discover what the presuppositions and implications of the two areas are, and whether they can or cannot be reconciled. Adherents of the one view are compatibilists, of the other incompatibilists. The special theist problem substitute the existence of God for the achievements of the sciences; if the doctrine of creation is true, then can this leave any room for human responsibility and choice? In the theistic context it is usual to speak of predestination, implying that everything, including particularly every choice, has been fixed in advance by divine decree.

The philosophical issues are indeed philosophical, and hence concerned with logical presuppositions and logical implications, logical compatibilities and logical incompatibilities. To often they are prejudicially misrepresented to take incompatibility answers for granted, leaving open only the factual and not philosophical questions of which of the two incompatibles is true. In particular the terms “freewill” and “determinism” are frequently so defined that one explicitly excludes the other. No philosophical dispute is settled, of course, by appeal to authority. Yet it is worthwhile, precisely and only in order to dissolve such prejudice, to notice that many--perhaps most--of those classical philosophers who published in this area were compatibilists: Hobbes, Leibniz, Locke, and Hume.

Ordinarily we contrast acting of our own freewill with acting under compulsion. But even the person who acts under compulsion is an agent, whereas the person who is simply picked up by main force and thrown as a missile victim is not. The crux here is what is essentially involved in action, not freewill in the everyday sense. Determinism too may be considered only in terms of physical causes necessitating their effects. But it is also possible to speak of conduct determined by the agent’s motives; and to say this is not so is clearly to imply that there was no alternative.

Modern problems in this area have centred round the claim that human actions are, or are capable of being (had we the knowledge), causally explained; that is they either (a)fall under (causal) physical laws, or (b) are physically determined (in the sense that the movements of inanimate objects are held to be physically determined). This might mean, of a given event c(falling under a law), that its effect e (a) could have been predicted, or (b) could not but have happened. When e is a human action, the tension is between describing it as voluntary--if this means ‘within our power to do or not to do, as we choose’ --and claiming that it could have been predicted, or (given circumstance c) e could not but have happened. But to deny that human actions fall into the realm of causality as ordinarily understood creates problems. In what sense then can we be said to cause our own actions (and hence be responsible for them, as the concept of freewill is said to imply) --rather than have them accidentally happen to us? Compatibilists believe that the concept of freewill must involve causality.



omnipotence, paradox of. The difficulty arising when, for example, it is claimed that God, having given man freedom, cannot prevent, and is therefore not responsible for, its misuse. Can God then create what he cannot thereafter control? Either answer seems inconsistent with God’s omnipotence, and hence an apparent need for some modification of our simple concept of omnipotence as capacity to do anything logically possible.

omniscience, paradoxes of. Problems arising over how God’s omniscience can be consistent with his timelessness or his granting freewill to Mankind, given that omniscience included fore-knowledge of future events (including human actions). It has been variously argued that foreknowledge cannot meaningfully be ascribed to the timeless, hence our concept of omniscience must be modified; that foreknowledge of actions is consistent with their freedom; or that even God cannot foreknow genuinely free actions, but has thus limited his own omniscience as a condition of granting human freedom.

~~~

And much of what is stated here is in line with what Cris and others have already pointed out on these threads. Their statements, arguments, or explanations are a good reflection of what these terms are generally understood to mean. As humans communicate with “language” (in this case written) it may be helpful for those who truly do wish to understand --or to be understood--to have a bit of reference. Helpful when trying to stick to the point, and helpful for any who wish to be taken seriously.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
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Originally posted by TruthSeeker

The Bible says that His knowledge is based in our Hearts. We choose it, but God plans to send EVERYONE to the Heavens. It's a hard path though... and not everyone make it. He wants it, but it's us that have to do it...

Love,
Nelson [/B]

Nelson,

why not everyone will make it? :confused: isn't everyone the same?? the way one thinks, his/her experience... they're pre-destined and so their way of thinking is pre-destined too right? doesn't that mean it's not that person's fault if he/she does evil since it's pre-determined????? otherwise, why creates a person who Loves and another who does not???
sorry if it's confusing.
 
Cris, prt1

Originally posted by Cris
What you suggest is religious doctrine, and I see no evidence for what you suggest is either true or has any value.

I could say the same thing regarding atheism, but that wouldn’t make for a good debate.

Why would an omnipotent being who can create the universe and create life not also add all necessary knowledge to the beings he creates?

He did, read Bhagavad Gita As it is.

With his perfection he could bypass the entire chronological set of experiences and give us full knowledge with equal if not better quality than if we had the experiences directly?

We are not clones.
I explained this, I’m sure, in my last post, you can’t force someone to love you, that’s not how love works.

So either God is incompetent for letting this happen or he planned

Or negative to the above.
Best thing to do is read BG as it is, and see if He’s incompetant or if He planned it.

In which case he also wanted us to suffer and experience agony and pain, and that is not consistent with the concept of a loving god.

That’s if He planned it.

If he had done a good job then he would not have lost my attention.

Chris you post on sciforums, the majority of your posts are in the religious section, you post most everyday on the non existence of God, believe me, He’s done an excellent job, in keeping your attention.
You must constantly be thinking about Him, even though it is fair to say you are a tad inimical towards Him.
But what is to your benefit, whether you think so or not, is that you constantly think about Him, you are IMO very fortunate. You are perhaps better than someone who claims to love God but doesn't think about Him.

I teach and lecture quite frequently and I know the issues of maintaining an interested audience. What you are saying here is that God was also an incompetent teacher.

On the contrary, we are discussing Him, He is a part of our lives therefore.
Do you think that your students constantly discuss you, or your lessons outside of your lectures?

You can’t forget something you never had.

That is a point of debate.

Hoping and wishing that a fantasy super father figure is looking after us is probably the greatest evil facing humanity,

I don’t agree, this particular period in the Earth history has already been foretold, events don’t just pop up out of the blue, this is how nature acts, and she uses her by-products (humans) to carry it out.
When we see someone infected with cancer, it would be foolish to think that it only started the moment it was diagnosed.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
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Cris,

Thanks for the welcome.

"If perfect knowledge exists of all your future actions then all your choices must have been pre-determined. I.e. you do not have any ability to make any choices other than those pre-determined? IOW your perceived choices are involuntary."

Yes but is not perception reality? If we can only perceive that we have choice A and choice B before us and it is our choice to make, then that IS our reality.

Just because God knows that were going to opt for choice A, does not lessen our real dilemma of which choice would be best. He doesn't always reveal to us which is the best. He leaves that to us.

You see, in this senario, our lives are given to us freely to do with as we please. And God is not lessened in scope or power, but actually given an even greater role.

"If a god has perfect knowledge of the future then you are powerless to change it."

Yes, but our knowledge of the future is limited to NOW. Therefore our future reality is uncertain no matter what God may or may not know about it.

"And if this god knows every action from the beginning of time then the entire future is pre-determined. Free will cannot exist under such conditions."

Free will, in truth IS an illusion from the following perspective; We can make a choice that seems right based on current knowledge. But the reality is that our current knowledge can be incomplete, even flawed. And therefore our freewill choice becomes something that, upon reflection, we might not have chosen. So we can choose, but we have no control over the outcome of that choice. And therefore our freewill is a moot question, we get what we get.

"If the future is pre-determined then someone or something must have set the pre-determined choices. This is clearly the result of an omniscient creator."

No, because pre-knowledge of a choice, does not lessen the reality OF that choice.

"Free-will will be an illusion within a religion such as Christianity."

Within any "religion" freewill becomes impossible. Because religion is a set of rules that one MUST live by to achieve ones goals. (whatever those might be). However, when discussing "predestination" from a biblical perspective, it is only the "destination" that is determined, and that ONLY by the one who has perfect knowledge of the choices that lead to that destination. Our perception is that we made the best choices we could with the knowledge we had at the time. And that IS the reality we live in.
 
Cris, prt2

Originally posted by Cris
Emotions guide you in the direction of personal pleasure and satisfaction.

I’m not saying that you are wrong, but surely that is only part of emotion. Being sad when someone, especially someone close to you dies, is not pleasurable.

Independent truth may not result in accomplishing that desire.

What is the difference between truth and independent truth.

The intellect and emotions can be and often are in conflict. If you allow emotions to dominate your decisions then you will fail to comprehend truth. Intellect must first be used to understand truth and then the emotions can be allowed to operate within those constraints.

Then we agree. When one obtains a balance, then everything is kushdy.

When emotions dominate then delusions are the result, and religions rest their survival on almost pure emotion.

Again I urge you to read BG.

When intellect dominates, then a cold-cold world is the result, where people are nothing more than units, the stronger units feel it is their right to enslave or kill the weaker units.
The idea of love is reduced to chemicals interacting in the brain, so that eventually, the whole concept of love is removed and replaced with conformity, sub-serviance and obedience, all activated by a friendly little chip.
The music becomes a drone, designed to brainwash the inocent/ignorant people, people lose their individuality and become slaves to their heirachy slave masters.
Failure to conform means death, either terminate the units (neural functions) life, or cut him out of an electronic societal equation.

Nope, neither world sounds good to me.

A simple example: Some people are addicted to gambling.

To give any substance to your point, you should not have used the term ‘addicted’, as this has nothing to do with emotion.

Their emotions tell them the perceived pleasure of immense wealth.

I see where you are coming from, but it is not emotion that tells them, they are attracted to making money for doing nothing, just, as I’m sure you have become addicted to your level of income in accordance with your work.
The emotion comes into play when they lose, get mad, go home and give the wife a kicking.

I guess this depends on what type of people you perceive that I perceive are intellectual. I suspect you have a stereotype in mind that I may well not share.

No.
I am basing it on the dictionary meaning.

If we overlap here then that would be worth understanding, since in most aspects of our debating we are opposites, potentially bitter opposites.

Having had a life where God did not play a role for me, where I didn’t care to think about nevermind believ in a god, I understand where you are coming from, so even though in the past I may have been opposed to your points, I am learning to see it, again, from your point of veiw.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by Master of Illusion

"You still don't get it......Trying desperately to work out ways that your god is omniscient AND still allowing you to have freewill."

"You can't have your cake and eat it....choose 1, but not both."

I just saw this, had to reply....;)

Well, I choose niether, there is Gods perspective and there is ours. His is perfect knowledge of all things, mine, on the other hand, obviously is not. This is not an "and-or" scenario, this is, as the original post suggests, two different perspectives on one reality. Or the same reality seen from two different "dimensions"?
 
Originally posted by Master of Illusion
Free will is only an illusion if you believe in an omniscient god. I of course do believe in free will because i have no belief in god or gods.

Or maybe I am getting something wrong...if so can someone that can logically think please help me out? (this will exclude 99.9% of christians).

This quandary is usually brought up, as is the case this time, in discussion about God and his/her/it's omniscience. However, we don't need God, or religion, to cause this dilemma. We can cause it ourselves.

From any point in time all the events of the past have already been determined. Yesterday cannot be changed, but yesterday can be known. If I know something about yesterday does that then mean that yesterdays events weren't shaped by choice or chance?

For example:

Since I now know that I had spaghetti for dinner last night does it mean that I had no choice in the matter?

Columbus can no longer bend to the fears of his crew, turn around and go back to Spain. His time is over, literally. Does this mean that Columbus had no free will? That his choice was predetermined?

These facts about the past cannot be changed. At the point of decision (the present) they moved from possibility/probability to fact. Now immutable their probability is 100%. This does not change their probability prior to their occurrence, however.

The problem lies in the assumption that the proposition (the future or the past is known) determines/causes the event. Rather it is the other way around. The event causes the proposition to be true.

Going back to the first example, it is the event (my actually having spaghetti for dinner last night) that makes the statement after the fact "I had spaghetti for dinner last night." or from before the fact "I will have spaghetti for dinner." true. The truth or fallacy of the proposition can only be determined by the event itself. If the event were different ( I had pizza for dinner) then the statements would be false.

Some references:

http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/modal_fallacy.htm
http://radicalacademy.com/adlernaturalisticfallacy.htm

~Raithere
 
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If a man doesn't make a decision, does that mean god will never knows what will be the choice until the decision is made? If god knows what a man is going to choose, then how does the man change his mind to reflect free will? If the man can change his mind successfully, then does that mean god didn't made the right prediction at the first time?

If god can see more than one future result for a person, such as hell or heaven, does that mean even god can't tell which future will be come the reality? If both futures are realities, then why bother what choice a man made now?
 
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
"If a man doesn't make a decision, does that mean god will never knows what will be the choice until the decision is made?"

Not at all.

"If god knows what a man is going to choose, then how does the man change his mind to reflect free will?"

Gods knowledge of his choice does not effect his freedom to choose either way.

"If the man can change his mind successfully, then does that mean god didn't made the right prediction at the first time?"

Thats just silly..........if God knew of the first choice he also knew of the change of mind.........

"If god can see more than one future result for a person, such as hell or heaven, does that mean even god can't tell which future will be come the reality? If both futures are realities, then why bother what choice a man made now?"

Well, heaven or hell comes after death, no more choices left to make after that.

There is a good quote from a prominent rock band that I like alot;

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

Every moment is a choice, and if God exsists in eternity, he is always "right now". Not the next moment of time or the last, but now, eternally.
 
quote from Richie:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--I just saw this, had to reply....

Well, I choose niether, there is Gods perspective and there is ours. His is perfect knowledge of all things, mine, on the other hand, obviously is not. This is not an "and-or" scenario, this is, as the original post suggests, two different perspectives on one reality. Or the same reality seen from two different "dimensions"?------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richie, the original post was nonsense as you can tell from the first few words.....

"Hello! I got this idea last night."

You just stuffed yourself up anyway, you said that god has perfect knowledge of all things. Therefore you chosen that he is omniscient.

BTW if god has perfect knowledge of all things and assuming you are a christian, why was jesus ignorant of the cause of disease? He thought it was caused by demons, as opposed to germs, viruses etc as shown by science.

To Raithere:

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Omniscience has nothing to do about knowing the past, anyone can know what happened in the past.
 
Originally posted by Richie_LaMontre
Gods knowledge of his choice does not effect his freedom to choose either way.

Thats just silly..........if God knew of the first choice he also knew of the change of mind.........
Unless you believe freewill is an illusion.

Well, heaven or hell comes after death, no more choices left to make after that.
Heaven and hell is a bad example. Now try this one:

If god can see more than one future result for a person, such as turns left and gets hit by a car or turns right and walks home safely, does that mean even god can't tell which future will be come the reality? If both futures are realities, then why bother what choice a man made now?
 
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Originally posted by Master of Illusion
To Raithere:

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Omniscience has nothing to do about knowing the past, anyone can know what happened in the past.

To clarify: My point is that knowledge of an event does not determine the event.

That a "God" may have knowledge of a future event does not predetermine the event. The truth of the knowlege cannot be known until the event occurs.

In the same way that our knowledge of a past event does not determine the event or eliminate the factors of choice or chance had in the outcome of the event prior to its occurance.

In no way do I mean this as an argument that God exists, only that the paradox of Omniscience vs Free Will is not a paradox.

The links I provided above have a rather detailed analysis of the Logic involved.

~Raithere
 
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