Free Will vs Omniscience koan solved!!

[Raithere]

Sorry, but I have to go after the premise that God is love, or that God loves us.

Let's see: Slaughter of men, women, infants, and animals; More killing of women and children; slavery of children; disaster for an entire city; children dashed into pieces; killing your brother, wife, your own child, friends for enticing you to worship other gods; Plague.

And these are just a few samples.

Sounds very loving to me (sarcasm implied here).
I'm not sure what your definition of Love is but this certainly isn't mine.

~Raithere


ref:

I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

(Hosea 13:16 NRSV) Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

(Deu 13:6-10 NRSV) If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Numbers 11: 33 But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the Lord burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

It is Christianity that has stated what God can do by claiming he is omnipotent

Well actually no;

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me….

This claim is made by God.

If that is written in some religious literature then it is that religion that is making the claim. No one has yet shown that any gods can either speak or write, unless of course you can show otherwise. In the meantime it is people who make claims for what gods can and can’t do.

If he can do anything why has he chosen to make people suffer?

He doesn’t choose to make people suffer, we make the choices and then suffer or enjoy the consequences.

Yes he does since it is alleged he created man and the universe and hence all the conditions and personalities that comprise our entire environment. With his alleged omnipotence he could have created conditions that didn’t require suffering. Since he didn’t then the only conclusion is that he wanted us to suffer. All suffering is entirely of his choosing. And neither can we have any free will in the matter since all our actions will be pre-determined if this creator is also omniscient, as claimed.

You don’t find rich people, in general, seriously attributing their wealth to God, because it wasn’t directly given by God, they will say they worked hard for that money. So why should we attribute our suffering to God, when it is not directly from God, the same can be said, we worked hard for that suffering, it works both ways.

The wealthy Christians I know certainly thank god for their good fortune and contented lifestyle. And the many poor people I have met tend not to believe in a god since their life is so miserable and a truly just god would not have allowed such a state.

If an omnipotent and omniscient God exists then evil and suffering are present in the universe because he wants it that way. And that is both unjust and evil.

Cris

 

[Cris]

Jan,

Part 2.

You have children whom you say you love, could/do you impose your will on them. Do you want your children to suffer? I imagine you don’t, but you cannot live their lives for them.

Yes but they have to live in the same harsh environment as myself. My way to help them is to teach them the dangers and hope they learn fast. If I were omnipotent I would create an environment where they could not be harmed. Why couldn’t an omnipotent god do the same for us?

God will give us every bit of help we need, to get us back to Him. But if He were to force us, it could not be classed as love. Only through unconditional love, can we enter into the Kingdom of God.

But if God is perfect and can do no wrong then he would not have made us so that he would lose us in the first place. If he has not made any errors then our suffering is part of his plan. It isn’t a matter of force it is a matter of original design. And my children do not commit evil acts because I have given them adequate education. Why didn’t God provide adequate education for us? If he is so perfect then the education could have been perfect as well.

Someone who loves will do everything to protect,

But will not force.

But someone who loves also won’t purposely put their children in danger, as it seems that God has done.

However, the learning experience of man and the related suffering is fully consistent with a universe where there are no gods. If we knew any better then we could avoid the suffering.

But we don’t, we increase suffering.

The introduction of antibiotics has reduced the suffering and prevented the deaths of millions of people in just the last 50 years. Average lifespan of people 2000 years ago was less than 25. Most died of terrible diseases where knowledge of basic hygiene was non-existent. Science and man’s curiosity and experimentation has dramatically reduced the suffering of the human race over the past few millennia and continues to do so. Suffering still exists and we as humans still have work to do. God certainly doesn’t seem to help. Fortunately most scientists are atheists so you are in safe hands.

Your fight seems to be with Christians in general.
To understand God from a fuller perspective, you have to hear from God Himself or His devotees.

Yes I agree, Christianity is the world’s largest religion and does affect me the most. But I feel that my perspective of religions is currently more than adequate and I can’t see a need to look any further until I am convinced there is something worthwhile. For example those selling religion so far have done a poor job. People generally do not ‘go’ for something unless they see a need. And I simply do not see any need for gods.

God cannot be perceived, merely by mundane scientific experiment, or through intellect.

Then construct sophisticated scientific experiments instead. But Ok I know what you mean. But the alternative to intellect is emotion and that has repeatedly shown itself as one of the most unreliable methods for determining truth. Why would I want to sacrifice my intellect in favor of a far less reliable mechanism?

Good things and bad things is a material conception, in order to experience one you have to experience the other, so some times you experience good and sometimes bad. In the our natural state there are no dualities eveything is one.

Hmmm there seems to be a crossing over of our philosophies here although I doubt we are talking about the same thing. I have been training myself over the past few decades to see no difference between good and bad, everything I see is an experience from which I can learn. Both disasters and pleasures are one and the same. But to achieve that state of equilibrium requires one to look down at the environment as if one is a dispassionate observer. All activities are merely transient and temporary. But that process is almost purely intellect. When emotions are allowed to participate then one becomes part of the event and cannot appreciate or observe the event accurately. However, I do experience emotions that cause real physiological changes. These are the times I find the most fascinating since I am able to experience my emotions through my intellect and observe how my physiology behaves and still not be outwardly affected by the changes. I only allow my emotions to affect me when I choose.

I doubt that is what you were talking about, and I have drifted off topic.

But you can’t since Christianity is a paradox, an impossible fantasy.

There’s another material conception, what seems an impossible fantasy to you, is a sublime truth to someone else. It all depends on your consciousness in relation to the three modes of material nature, goodness, passion and ignorance.

A logical paradox exists whether you believe it or not. Without using the intellect then the paradox cannot be detected and your alleged truth is nothing more than a delusion, which I agree will seem perfectly real to the person that depends on emotions for truth.

Until people make the effort to place intellect and reason above unreliable emotion then we will continue to exist in a confused world.

Cris

 

[daktaklakpak]

Maybe you guys need to define how god knows everything. Is it detailed into every partical position in every picosecond? Or just some major event? Like A is going to kill B, but how to kill is a example of free will?

If it's the first one, then there really no such thing is free will.

If it's the second one, then it implies that god has limits.

 

[Cris]

dak,

If it's the second one, then it implies that god has limits.

And hence another paradox. Christianity might make sense if God is limited, but Christianity claims that god is unlimited.

Cris

 

[TruthSeeker]

Who is God?

Cris,

I’m sorry I only studied physics to college graduate level. Perhaps you can bring your explanations down to that level just for me.

It's just a way to speak...

Sounds interesting. Can you point me to a credible published article that explains this?

Again please point me at some credible references that show how this might be possible.

Do you know that there is something called "new ideas"...?:bugeye:



I will give a question to everyone...

God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
God is everything.
God is everywhere.
God knows everything.
God can do anything He wants.
Who is God?

Love,
Nelson

 

[TruthSeeker]

Xev,

Suffering cannot be argued to be for the better because an omnipotent God could create a better world without causing suffering and because young children can die in very painfull ways, thus garnering no benefit from thier suffering.

Suffering is caused by desires and ignorance, the two things Buddhism combat...

Love,
Nelson

 

[blonde_cupid]

If we are moved to voluntary action, knowledge of the end result of our voluntary action does not cause our voluntary action to become involuntary. The end result is known, not caused, by knowledge.

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

Suffering is caused by desires and ignorance, the two things Buddhism combat...

I'll agree with that. But then Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

But if there were a creator god then he would be the cause of suffering. Fortunately no such evil monster exists and humans must take full responsibility for their actions.

Cris

 

[Cris]

blonde_cupid,

If we are moved to voluntary action, knowledge of the end result of our voluntary action does not cause our voluntary action to become involuntary. The end result is known, not caused, by knowledge.

True but only if our initial actions are indeed voluntary and not engineered (pre-determined) by a creator god in order to produce his own desired end result. If such a creature existed we would not have any way to detect whether our actions were voluntary or not.

And if such a creature did exist and was the creator of everything and had perfect knowledge of the final end result, then everything in between would have to have been perfectly engineered, i.e. all alleged human voluntary actions would have to be entirely involuntary.

Cris

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
Yes but they have to live in the same harsh environment as myself.

Maybe so, but you can teach them knowledge of the self, that way they may not have to be reborn into this harsh environment in their next life. Try and understand that, although the birth of your children is sparked of by sexual intercourse of some kind, they themselves are more than a biological union.

My way to help them is to teach them the dangers and hope they learn fast.

That’s good.

If I were omnipotent I would create an environment where they could not be harmed. Why couldn’t an omnipotent god do the same for us?

If you were omnipotent, you wouldn’t think the way you do.
If you create that kind of environment, how would they learn.
We learn through experience. This would be hampered if you wrapped them up in cotton wool.

But if God is perfect and can do no wrong then he would not have made us so that he would lose us in the first place.

He didn’t, we became lost.

And my children do not commit evil acts because I have given them adequate education.

Everything in this world is relative, therefore evil boils down to transgression of law. In this way we all transgress laws. If your statement is true, then your children are perfect and therefore you must be perfect, otherwise your children would not be attracted to you.


Why didn’t God provide adequate education for us? If he is so perfect then the education could have been perfect as well.

He has, but you are not interested in it.

But someone who loves also won’t purposely put their children in danger, as it seems that God has done.

The real danger in life is forgetfulness of ones spiritual identity.

Fortunately most scientists are atheists so you are in safe hands.

All of a sudden its gone cold in here.

People generally do not ‘go’ for something unless they see a need. And I simply do not see any need for gods.

My car is a lovely dark green colour, are you saying I needed a car of that colour.

But the alternative to intellect is emotion and that has repeatedly shown itself as one of the most unreliable methods for determining truth.

Nonsense, they are two different aspects of the human pysche. When both are used effectively you get a powerful personality.

Why would I want to sacrifice my intellect in favor of a far less reliable mechanism?

Don’t sacrifice it, integrate them.

But to achieve that state of equilibrium requires one to look down at the environment as if one is a dispassionate observer.

Or trancendental to the cause and effect, seeing them as different aspects of nature., and not being affected either way.

All activities are merely transient and temporary. But that process is almost purely intellect.

Then why is it that people who are not what you would call intellectual can understand this truth.

When emotions are allowed to participate then one becomes part of the event and cannot appreciate or observe the event accurately.

But it is an advantage, because the intellect can thrive off experience and arrive at real conclusions, instead of speculation, if the intellect and emotions are working together that is.

However, I do experience emotions that cause real physiological changes. These are the times I find the most fascinating since I am able to experience my emotions through my intellect and observe how my physiology behaves and still not be outwardly affected by the changes. I only allow my emotions to affect me when I choose.

There aint nothing wrong with that dude.

Without using the intellect then the paradox cannot be detected and your alleged truth is nothing more than a delusion, which I agree will seem perfectly real to the person that depends on emotions for truth.

Purley using the intellect, you will not understand what is truth, because you would not trust your subjective self, unless it could provide proof of existence. Eventually, because it is natrual for you to ‘know’ you will make up a theory and then mould it into a sort of truth to satisfy your natural but suppressed instinct.

Hey!
Wait a minute.
That’s what you do.

Until people make the effort to place intellect and reason above unreliable emotion then we will continue to exist in a confused

That will only create a phantasmagora.

Hey!
That’s whats happening man.
Spooky.


Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Counterbalance]

Cris wrote:

And hence another paradox. Christianity might make sense if God is limited, but Christianity claims that god is unlimited.

And who in their (right?) worshipful mind would want a god who wasn't worth his own metaphysical salt? A limited god?

Oh well. In some parts of the world people also believe that telling a lie with sincerity somehow lessens the 'sin' of being deceitful. After all, for them to believe anything else would possibly force them to look at things as they really are, and they're afraid to do that. They've been led to believe that life isn't worth living without the intervention or control of a supernatural entity.

I think it's all about fear, or a lack of it.

~~~

Carry on,

Counterbalance

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

I'll agree with that. But then Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

Atheistic religion??

You've just made a paradox Cris!

I think we need holidays... :bugeye:

But if there were a creator god then he would be the cause of suffering. Fortunately no such evil monster exists and humans must take full responsibility for their actions.

God is not good nor evil. God is neutral. If God is the source of everything, He Himself have to had "created" evil too. It wasn't really God that created good and evil. Good and evil are created by our minds, which is the simbol of Satan, or illusion. For instance, the whole thing of Tree of Conscience and Tree of Life is based on those things. The same as Taoism. The Tao is neutral. The illusion is created when you are "outside" it, when you can't perceive it. Once you have your mind full of things, you are illuded and you have a "distorted" sense of Truth that Taoism call the Dualist World.
God is not the cause of suffering. Illusion is.

Love,
Nelson

 

[Richie_LaMontre]

Pre-destination

"Predestination" is what your trying to sort out here.

It's much simpler than it seems.

A simple way to say it is that "God knows what choices we are going to make." He didn't set them, but he knows what they are, and you might even go so far as to say he knew, "from the foundation of the world."

And we, on the other hand, do NOT know what choices we will make until we make them. Which creates what we refer to as "free-will".

Free will can be seen as an illusion in some senarios that Ive read on the subject. However, it is a reality.

 

[blonde_cupid]

Richie,

***Are we having fun yet?***

Oh, yeah!

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

Atheistic religion??

You've just made a paradox Cris!

Buddhists have no belief in a god. That is atheism. Hence Buddhists are atheists.

Where is the paradox?

Cris

 

[Cris]

Hi Richie,

Welcome to sciforums.

If perfect knowledge exists of all your future actions then all your choices must have been pre-determined. I.e. you do not have any ability to make any choices other than those pre-determined? IOW your perceived choices are involuntary.

If a god has perfect knowledge of the future then you are powerless to change it. And if this god knows every action from the beginning of time then the entire future is pre-determined. Free will cannot exist under such conditions. The existence of an omniscient creator precludes any possibility of human free will.

If the future is pre-determined then someone or something must have set the pre-determined choices. This is clearly the result of an omniscient creator.

Free-will will be an illusion within a religion such as Christianity.

Cris

 

[TruthSeeker]

Richie,

A simple way to say it is that "God knows what choices we are going to make." He didn't set them, but he knows what they are, and you might even go so far as to say he knew, "from the foundation of the world."

May I complement...

God knows everyone's Heart. He knows the choices we will do. He knows what we think, He knows what we feel. That's omniscience too. Then, if He knows it, we still have free will. We can change our mind right now about something, but He already knew it because it was already in our Hearts.

Cris,

Buddhists have no belief in a god. That is atheism. Hence Buddhists are atheists.

Not necessarily...
Zen is like a God... not in the Christian sense, of course, but it's still a "God"...

Where is the paradox?

...atheistic religion...

atheism [ezm]
n. rejection of belief in God or gods.
[from French atheisme, from Greek atheos godless, from {a-1} + theos god]

religion [rldn]
n.
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.
2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion.
3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers.

They are opposites...

A religion without a God?? :bugeye:

Love,
Nelson

 

[Master of Illusion]

Trying to explain omniscience and freewill to a christian is akin to bashing your head against a brick wall.

An example: If god knows I am going to die an atheist, then what choice do i have to die a believer? How can I somehow foil god's "plan"? Why did god create me, if i am going to be consigned to eternal hell?

The christian will say: but you have the choice, god leaves it up to you, or...how do you know you are going to die a non believer? Let jesus into your heart..crap..crap.......

The same story with adam and eve.

Me: Did god know that adam and eve would eat the fruit?
christian: Yes he did
Me: Why didn't god "plan" for them not to eat it?
christian: adam and eve freely chose to eat the fruit, it
was their fault, not god's.....why blame god?

Free will is only an illusion if you believe in an omniscient god. I of course do believe in free will because i have no belief in god or gods.

Or maybe I am getting something wrong...if so can someone that can logically think please help me out? (this will exclude 99.9% of christians).

 

[TruthSeeker]

Master of Illusion,

God gives you two ways: Heaven and Hell.
You choose it.

What God plans to you is very good. He allways has good plans for everybody. But most people don't follow His plans (including Christians). That's because we have free will. We can choose if we will go through the narrow gate to Heavens or through the wide one to Hell...

More logically? I (and I think anyone) has a language proper to talk about this...

I wish you good luck with your choice.

Love,
Nelson