Free Will vs Omniscience koan solved!!

[TruthSeeker]

Hello!

I got this idea last night.
I was thinking about the relation between dimensions, time, free will and God's will. Here is what I've got.

We live in a Third to Fourth (space-time) Dimensional Universe. Our physical Universe is subjected by time. But God is timeless. God is beyond this Four Dimensional Universe, beyond time.

Then, we draw the conclusion that since God is timeless and omniscient, His will never changes. He never changes (in the way we know time). He lives in an eternal present, beyond the Fourth Dimension.

At the same time, we are dubjected to time. This gives us the Free Will because since time is present here, the future can't be "predicted".

Since everything is set up in another dimension beyond the fourth, as God is omniscient and we are below the fourth dimensional Universe subjected by time, Free Will and God's omniscience can co-exist.

This works in a Multi-Dimensional Universe where the dimensions are all interconnected. The "paralell" Universes are other dimensions (in this case, the Fith and beyond).

..........Humans............|...........God
<---Third Dimension----|---Fith Dimension--->
.......................Fourth Dimension
........Free Will.............|.......Omniscience
...........Time...............|....Everlasting Present

This proves my other ideas in " The Chackras and the Dimensions of Spiritual Evolution " and "Neutral Cosmic Emanations Theory ".

Any questions?
Coments?

Love,
Nelson

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

I’ll give you credit for trying to tackle this issue. But the conclusion you draw from your assumptions is the opposite from what they indicate.

Omniscience isn’t about predicting the future, it is about having absolute certain knowledge of what is going to happen. Omniscience isn’t some form of clairvoyance. What you have tried to explain is how we could view God’s omniscience.

At the same time, we are subjected to time. This gives us the Free Will because since time is present here, the future can't be "predicted".

What you have done is not to show that humans have free will but exactly the opposite. If God is outside of time he will be able to see every instant throughout eternity at the same time.

This means that at the instant he created the universe he would know every tiny detail of what you are going to do throughout your entire life. And if he knows what you are going to do with perfect certainty then you are powerless to do anything else. In which case you have no free will and your entire life is pre-determined.

Cris

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

This means that at the instant he created the universe he would know every tiny detail of what you are going to do throughout your entire life. And if he knows what you are going to do with perfect certainty then you are powerless to do anything else. In which case you have no free will and your entire life is pre-determined.

No because He is in a paralell Universe, in another dimension. What happens in God's dimension doesn't really interferes in the other eventhough it is what is most likely to happen...
It's like two different Realities happening at the same time. It's weird, but it has some logic...

What you have done is not to show that humans have free will but exactly the opposite. If God is outside of time he will be able to see every instant throughout eternity at the same time.

Yes. He see, he write the script but we do what we want. For instance, imagine God as a movie director.
May God forgive me for that... :bugeye:
Continuining, imagine He is a movie director and we are the actors. We follow the script but we still have free will to do whatever we want. If the girl is hot, and I can kiss her, why not? Only because the director doesn't want, it doesn't mean that we can't.

Love,
Nelson

 

[TruthSeeker]

Thanks Cris

Btw, thanks for your comments. They allways enrich my posts. They make me think further on the subject.

Love,
Nelson

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

No because He is in a paralell Universe, in another dimension. What happens in God's dimension doesn't really interferes in the other eventhough it is what is most likely to happen...

So God has nothing to do with us. In which case in our reality God does not exist. Yes I like that conclusion.

It's like two different Realities happening at the same time. It's weird, but it has some logic...

The two realities don’t connect then, right?

Sorry, but I don’t see any logic yet. And your actor’s example didn’t work for me.

If God knows about us, wherever he is, and has omniscience, and created these parallel universes then we have no free will.

Try a better example because I don’t see your perspective yet.

Cris

 

[Xev]

Kaluza-Klein theory claims that there are either 11 or 22 dimensions....Wienberg claims that the extra dimensions might be so tiny that they don't affect us.

So, yeah, Cris, there's a lot to like with that theory. Cthulhu, I might add, is pan-dimensional. (I had to refer to Cthulhu!)

Of course, if God is in a different dimension and dosen't affect us, what is the difference between that and there not being a God at all?

And how can God be Love if love affects us, yet God does not?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Re: Thanks Cris

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What happens in God's dimension doesn't really interferes in the other eventhough it is what is most likely to happen...
It's like two different Realities happening at the same time. It's weird, but it has some logic...

I get you TS, remember ‘achintya-bheda-bheda tattva’, simultaneosly one and different.
That is the philosophy, check it out sometime.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Xev
Of course, if God is in a different dimension and dosen't affect us, what is the difference between that and there not being a God at all?

God is interested in the soul not the body, material nature, under His will, deals with the body accordingly.

And how can God be Love if love affects us, yet God does not?

Easy!
He is love.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

So God has nothing to do with us. In which case in our reality God does not exist. Yes I like that conclusion.

You understood nothing, did you?...:bugeye:
He interacts with us... but not in the sense you know...

What I'm doing...? That's like try to explain Quantum Physics to a baby! :bugeye:

The two realities don’t connect then, right?

They do connect and interact with each other. But we still have our will power...

Sorry, but I don’t see any logic yet. And your actor’s example didn’t work for me.

*sights*

If God knows about us, wherever he is, and has omniscience, and created these parallel universes then we have no free will.

Why? Imagine superposed dimensions exchanging energies.
In the Fith Dimension, particles have more energy then light. They move faster than light, beyond space-time.
When it loses energy, it comes back to space-time.
It's no different than electrons in atoms' orbits.

Is this better for you?

Love,
Nelson

 

[Yes!]

Ok Truthseeker I don't think I quite follow you, you say:

At the same time, we are subjected to time. This gives us the Free Will because since time is present here, the future can't be "predicted".

But assuming God "lives" in an another dimension, and is omniscient, how does us living in a "timed" reality make God's timeless reality any less absolute? If omnipotent timeless God designs the universe, wouldn't his being without time - in the way we see it - not matter? Or to be more clear, can you give me an example of an action that you are doing by free will and not by design or cause?:bugeye:

 

[Cris]

Truthseeker,

You understood nothing, did you?...

Sure I did. I understood all your words, but when they were strung together they didn’t make any sense.

He interacts with us... but not in the sense you know...

I don’t know that he interacts with us at all. God is just a speculative idea. No one has yet demonstrated that he exists at all let alone that he can interact.

What I'm doing...? That's like try to explain Quantum Physics to a baby!

I’m sorry I only studied physics to college graduate level. Perhaps you can bring your explanations down to that level just for me.

They do connect and interact with each other. But we still have our will power...

It really doesn’t matter what mechanism or arrangement of dimensions or universes you propose. Christianity defines God as being omniscient, and that means perfect knowledge of all events past present and future (effectively he is not restrained by time, or dimensions). He is further defined as the creator of everything. Under those constraints everything humans choose to do is perfectly pre-determined, and therefore humans cannot have free will.

To show that humans have free will you must show that their actions are not known before they occur, i.e. are not pre-determined. All the time that humans are constrained by a sequential chronological timeline and God isn’t then you have no case no matter how imaginative your speculations.

Imagine superposed dimensions exchanging energies.

Sounds interesting. Can you point me to a credible published article that explains this?

In the Fith Dimension, particles have more energy then light. They move faster than light, beyond space-time.

When it loses energy, it comes back to space-time.
It's no different than electrons in atoms' orbits.

Again please point me at some credible references that show how this might be possible.

Is this better for you?

No not yet. But I look forward to some evidence to support your imaginative hypotheses.

The only effective evidence for your claim that humans have free will within a Christian universe will be to show that either God is not omniscient or isn’t the creator, or in effect show that Christianity has no credible foundation.

Cris

 

[Dracula's Guest]

The only way I can see humans having free will is if the future isnt determined and God can only make educated guesses on our choices. Of course that would leave room for error if he was only estimating, but then if its only a small margin of error (Like 0.0000001%) then it would appear he is omniscient, which means God's omniscience is the illusion.

 

[Xev]

May as well throw this out here, it's from an old message board:

Suffering disproves a loving, all-powerfull God

If God is loving then he would not let there be so much suffering in the world, so therefore God is either malicious or limited.

Therefore, if God exists

He does not prevent suffering thus

He is either evil
Or indifferent
Or limited

Suffering cannot be argued to be for the better because an omnipotent God could create a better world without causing suffering and because young children can die in very painfull ways, thus garnering no benefit from thier suffering.

Interesting thread, went on for over a month after being hyjacked several times to debate whether pain was a sensation and gathered slightly over a thousand replies.

Jan:

God is interested in the soul not the body, material nature, under His will, deals with the body accordingly.

Since the case of Phineas Gage demonstrates that the brain is the seat of personality, how do you justify the contention that the soul is different from the body?

Easy! He is love.

Not so easy. Consider the following:

God is Love
God is in another dimension that dosen't affect us
Love affects us

How is God Love if Love affects us yet God does not?

Nelson:

All very interesting speculation which you have not one shred of evidence for. Firstoff, there is no evidence for the existance of God. Second, you assume that a fifth dimension would not be affected by the fourth (if God is timeless). This is unproven, as is the concept of dimensions higher than our four.

Besides, if God is all-loving, why does He allow suffering?

 

[Jan Ardena]

If God is loving then he would not let there be so much suffering in the world, so therefore God is either malicious or limited.

Who are you or I to say what God would do, besides repeating what He says He will do?
He like me and you, acts according to His own Supreme Will, which is infinate, all-knowing, all-pervading, whereas ours is finite and localised.

He is either evil
Or indifferent
Or limited

Instead of speculating, why don’t you find out by reading His word or enquiring from His devotees. I say this, because your understanding God is based on a material platform. You are therefore mistaken my friend.

Suffering cannot be argued to be for the better because an omnipotent God could create a better world without causing suffering and because young children can die in very painfull ways, thus garnering no benefit from thier suffering.

There you go again, saying what God should or could do.
You have no idea.

Since the case of Phineas Gage demonstrates that the brain is the seat of personality, how do you justify the contention that the soul is different from the body?

I fail to see how that demonstrates the brain being the seat of consciousness.

Not so easy. Consider the following:

God is Love
God is in another dimension that dosen't affect us
Love affects us

How is God Love if Love affects us yet God does not?

A little analogy;
The sun, 93 million miles away, is fixed in his orbit, yet he destributes heat and light all over the universe. Heat and light are different energies of the sun, but they constitute the sunshine. This heat and light are vital to existence of the earth.
God is situated in His abode, beyond this material world, and His energies like the sunshine are all-pervading, yet like the sun He is situated in His abode. His energies are of 3 kinds, spiritual, material and marginal.

ACHINTYA-BHEDA-BHEDA TATTVA

Just a rushed explanation, hope it gives you some idea.

Firstoff, there is no evidence for the existance of God.

I have evidence, but it would not be accepted by you. You constantly try to set the standard of what is regarded as knowledge, wherseas you should be more objective.
Anybody can reject, its not very hard at all.
The trick is, try to understand and then reject if it doesn’t make sense.

Besides, if God is all-loving, why does He allow suffering?

The law of nature is most stringent- ‘as a man sows, so shall he reap’.
We make the choices, so we suffer or enjoy the consequences.
As simple as that.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Xev]

Who are you or I to say what God would do, besides repeating what He says He will do?

I think. I reason.

He like me and you, acts according to His own Supreme Will, which is infinate, all-knowing, all- pervading, whereas ours is finite and localised.

*Shrugs*
Yeah, you can get out of the dilemna by positing an incomprehensible God.

Instead of speculating, why don’t you find out by reading His word or enquiring from His devotees.

I've read the Bible. A catalog of atrocity after atrocity, with exhortations to be moral thrown in hither-skither.

There you go again, saying what God should or could do.
You have no idea.

There I go again indeed.

I have evidence, but it would not be accepted by you. You constantly try to set the standard of what is regarded as knowledge, wherseas you should be more objective.

Try me. I may reject, I may not.

Anybody can reject, its not very hard at all.
The trick is, try to understand and then reject if it doesn’t make sense.

I have. And the same thing could be said for Cthulhu.

The law of nature is most stringent- ‘as a man sows, so shall he reap’.
We make the choices, so we suffer or enjoy the consequences.
As simple as that.

Somhow I don't think a child with a pontine tumor (one of the origional contributers was familiar with pediatric oncology) chooses to suffer.

No, I don't think a child with Tay-Sachs chooses to suffer either.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I think. I reason.

So.

I've read the Bible.

Well, there’s no fooling you I guess.

There I go again indeed.

I have.

Haven’t seen much evidence round here.

Somhow I don't think a child with a pontine tumor (one of the origional contributers was familiar with pediatric oncology) chooses to suffer.

But it suffers anywayz.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Dracula's Guest]

I could see why God might allow suffering in *some* cases.
For instance, Artificial Intelligence programmers might create a robot mouse that has to learn how to scurry round the floor and find some "cheese". After a certain point in development, it might be necessary for the builders and programmers to step back and monitor it from a distance, and let the mouse learn by itself. Of course if you give something free will, it has to learn the consequences of its actions and take responsibility for its choices, whether they result in a reward for a right choice, or suffering for the wrong choice.

It would seem a bit hypocritical to demand free will and then refuse responsibility for mistakes and bad choices. If God exists and wants us to learn and become independant, then he/she would have to teach us the responsibility that comes with making choices, and the best way to do that would be to step back and let us learn for ourselves. Its a good idea in theory, but it quite often ends up with other people suffering for someone elses choice, which doesn't give the impression that there is a "loving" entity sitting out there keeping the universe in check. If God does exist, it wouldnt be surprising to find he's generally hated and despised, for his apparent in-action towards the human race.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

Suffering cannot be argued to be for the better because an omnipotent God could create a better world without causing suffering and because young children can die in very painfull ways, thus garnering no benefit from thier suffering.

There you go again, saying what God should or could do.

Well no not really. It is Christianity that has stated what God can do by claiming he is omnipotent (can do anything). Xev is merely asking a very legitimate question.

If he can do anything why has he chosen to make people suffer?

Dracula’s_Guest’s suggestion that it is a learning experience doesn’t work either since with his power to do anything he could have chosen to give us full understanding without us having to suffer.

You are faced with a real paradox. Someone who loves will do everything to protect, and Christianity’s claim of omnipotence says that God could protect all humans from any type of suffering, if he wished. Since he has chosen suffering then he cannot be the loving God claimed by Christianity.

However, the learning experience of man and the related suffering is fully consistent with a universe where there are no gods. If we knew any better then we could avoid the suffering.

Many wonderful things are claimed for the Christian God, but when atheists point out the bad things then the only answer seems to be that God is incomprehensible. That is simply too convenient and clearly deceitful, and reeks of massive inconsistency. If you can explain the good things why can’t you explain the bad things?

But you can’t since Christianity is a paradox, an impossible fantasy.

Cris

 

[Xev]

Jan:

Somhow I don't think a child with a pontine tumor (one of the origional contributers was familiar with pediatric oncology) chooses to suffer.

But it suffers anywayz.

So you admit that you were wrong on that one?

Dracula's Guest:

It would seem a bit hypocritical to demand free will and then refuse responsibility for mistakes and bad choices. If God exists and wants us to learn and become independant, then he/she would have to teach us the responsibility that comes with making choices, and the best way to do that would be to step back and let us learn for ourselves. Its a good idea in theory, but it quite often ends up with other people suffering for someone elses choice, which doesn't give the impression that there is a "loving" entity sitting out there keeping the universe in check. If God does exist, it wouldnt be surprising to find he's generally hated and despised, for his apparent in-action towards the human race.

I'm not talking about choices. The child with a pontine tumor does not choose to suffer, being incabable of choice.

And, you note that we suffer for the choices of others, which is correct. Think of how many people are suffering and suffered for the choices Bin Ladin made.

There is a way out of this paradox, as Jan noted. However, many find 'God is bigger and more powerfull than us' or 'God is incomprehensible' unsatisfying.

After all, if God is incomprehensible, does not religion lose purpose? One may as well be honest about it and make propitatory sacrifices to Vesuvius.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
Well no not really. It is Christianity that has stated what God can do by claiming he is omnipotent

Well actually no;

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me….

This claim is made by God.

If he can do anything why has he chosen to make people suffer?

He doesn’t choose to make people suffer, we make the choices and then suffer or enjoy the consequences.
You don’t find rich people, in general, seriously attributing their wealth to God, because it wasn’t directly given by God, they will say they worked hard for that money. So why should we attribute our suffering to God, when it is not directly from God, the same can be said, we worked hard for that suffering, it works both ways.

Dracula’s_Guest’s suggestion that it is a learning experience doesn’t work either since with his power to do anything he could have chosen to give us full understanding without us having to suffer.

You have children whom you say you love, could/do you impose your will on them. Do you want your children to suffer? I imagine you don’t, but you cannot live their lives for them.
God will give us every bit of help we need, to get us back to Him. But if He were to force us, it could not be classed as love. Only through unconditional love, can we enter into the Kingdom of God.

Someone who loves will do everything to protect,

But will not force.

However, the learning experience of man and the related suffering is fully consistent with a universe where there are no gods. If we knew any better then we could avoid the suffering.

But we don’t, we increase suffering.

Many wonderful things are claimed for the Christian God, but when atheists point out the bad things then the only answer seems to be that God is incomprehensible.

Your fight seems to be with Christians in general.
To understand God from a fuller perspective, you have to hear from God Himself or His devotees.
God cannot be percieved, merley by mundane scientific experiment, or through intellect.

That is simply too convenient and clearly deceitful, and reeks of massive inconsistency. If you can explain the good things why can’t you explain the bad things?

Good things and bad things is a material conception, in order to experience one you have to experience the other, so some times you experience good and sometimes bad. In the our natural state there are no dualities eveything is one.

But you can’t since Christianity is a paradox, an impossible fantasy.

There’s another material conception, what seems an impossible fantasy to you, is a sublime truth to someone else. It all depends on your consciousness in relation to the three modes of material nature, goodness, passion and ignorance.

Love.

Jan Ardena.